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Thread: Frost Strike Glyph vs. Rune Strike Glyph

  1. #1
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    Frost Strike Glyph vs. Rune Strike Glyph

    In terms of tanking, which would be better? Glyphing frost strike would allow a tank to use frost strike more often, and with killing machine a tank could put out a higher dps. But in general rune strike should be generating more threat. My rune strike makes up about 10% of my total damage with frost stike glyphed, and frost strike making up about 15%. So in terms of threat, they both are about the same. Unglyphed these numbers are closer together, but not by much. I imagine (have not tried) glyphing rune strike would increase rune strikes damage by about 10%, therefore making it superior to frost strike in threat, but probably not dps. I'm not much of a number cruncher, so the question here is would glyphing runestrike over frost strike result in higher tps. Dps? And if it provides more tps but not dps or vise versa would the trade of be worth it?

  2. #2
    Stay with Frost Strike, for two reasons:
    a) While the Threat will be similar between both setups, frost is slightly higher and does more damage on top. Cannot ever be wrong. ^_^
    b) Lower FS cost is a gain in versatility, 10% RS crit is not. The FS Flyph allows you to use a FS where you otherwise could not.
    SQUEAK.
    -- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

  3. #3
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    For a number-based answer:

    FS glyph reduces the RP cost by 8 out of 40, a 20% reduction in cost. That means *in theory* with a set amount of runic power you'll be able to use 25% more FS's, which assuming you can keep the same crit average would mean a 25% increase in FS damage (probably not a fair assumption but it shouldn't be wildly different).

    RS glyph increases RS crit chance by 10%. Crits do double damage, this is fully passive, so it should always apply. If RS does X damage on average, and your crit chance is Y, your crit adjusted damage we'll call C would be:
    No Glyph: C = (1-Y)X + Y(X*2) = X - XY + 2XY = X + XY
    with Glyph: C' = (1-Y+0.1)X + (Y+0.1)(X*2) = 1.1X - XY + 2XY + 0.2X = 1.3X + XY

    So, the damage % damage increase will depend on your crit chance, where the % increase in damage is (1.3+Y)/(1+Y) and the threat buff would be that times 1.5 (since RS has a % threat modifier all its own):
    Code:
    Base crit <=> Glyph % dmg buff <=> RS % threat buff
       5%                28.6%             42.9%
      10%                27.3%             40.9%
      15%                26.1%             39.1%
      20%                25.0%             37.5%
    So, if you have a pretty average crit value as a tank at 10%, you'd get a 27% damage buff from the RS portion of your damage (41% threat buff from that damage), and FS would give you the 25% damage (with no additional threat modifier).

    Since you said your FS is 15% of your total damage and RS is 10%, that would mean the FS glyph will give you 3.75% more damage (3.75% more threat) overall, and the RS glyph will give you 2.73% more damage (4.09% more threat) overall.

    So, if my guess about your crit chance is right you'd get a slightly higher threat return from the RS glyph, but as Knthrak pointed out you lose the added availability of FS a little bit.

    It's hard to measure the relative effect as the FS glyph can actually change the way you use it and as such change the % of your damage that goes to FS, which may in turn make it a better gain on threat as well. If nothing else, it will mean you'll have FS available earlier, and be able to use it more often without dropping too much RP. For a safe threshold with Frost, I try to keep my pool above 35 for RS to keep firing and to always have IBF available, so without the glyph I wouldn't FS below 75 RP (unless using a delicious KM proc, though it still wouldn't be smart to use below 60 unless you know you're about to get enough for your next RS before it fires), and with the glyph I'd be fine dumping above 65 RP, rounding off.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  4. #4
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    I eat up Satorri's posts like Moonpies!
    Nice breakdown.

  5. #5
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    Why do you have to choose between those 2? what are your other glyphs?
    My frost tank glyph are: FS, RS and HB (I use a 1 disease rotation).
    OB glyph is +20% damage/threat on OB (max 4 OB by 2 rotation, if rime proc; 3 without rime)
    Like satorri said, FS glyph is roughly 25% more damage with FS. Plus from my WWS, FS is always my top damage ability, above OB (it may not be true with the OB sigil instead of my FS sigil, though).

  6. #6
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    Indeed, Fea, they bear comparison. OB glyph is easy to check too, since you can just take your WWS OB damage %, and multiply by 1.2, the difference is how much your total threat will be buffed.

    So, if it broke down like this for damage before glyphs:
    FS = 15%
    RS = 10%
    OB = 10%

    FS glyph would net you (roughly) 3.75% more threat, OB would net you 2.0% more threat, and if you had 20% crit chance raid buffed, RS glyph would give you 3.75% more threat. (Worth noting: in order for FS glyph to be the same as RS glyph, with 20% crit in raid buffs, FS would have to constitute 50% more damage on your breakdown than RS)
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  7. #7
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    so does that mean glyphing obliterate (despite the logic behind glyphing it cos we use it so much in frost rotation) is a bad idea compared to the threat gen you gain from fs glyph?

  8. #8
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    Not necessarily. The breakdown will be personal for each player.

    *If* you can turn the FS glyph into 25% more FS's (it gets complicated since it can easily change your rotations, and maybe you can't fit more CD's into blackouts, or maybe not a full 25% more), then in order for the OB glyph to be better than the FS glyph, you'd need (with neither) for your Oblit to be doing a higher % on your total damage done (~4% more, so 10.4% OB vs 10% FS, for example).

    Personally, I prefer the FS glyph because it:
    A.) Gives you a chance to add whole strikes, and allows you to use them earlier because of the discount

    and B.) Even with it, in all the rune blackouts generated by leaning heavily on OB/HB, I still can't fill every GCD with FS's when runes aren't available.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  9. #9
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    understood, gonna try it out tonight.
    im already getting a picture of what you mean by it can vary for player, as i can already imagine how much different fights will also effect it just thinking bout the best times to pop ams for more rp. will be good glyph on ignis where im getting rp by the bucket load

  10. #10
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    So, no place like here I suppose, to tell my little story. I was feeling shiftless last night, feeling like I needed to do something unusual to keep things interesting. So I decided to swap my second spec for a Frost tanking build. I've played with it but I never gave it an honest go in a Uld 25 raid. I wanted to feel what I've only been able to conceptualize in a lot of my discussions. Fortunately, Frost has been one of my favorite specs all along and often my first choice for a dps spec, so it didn't feel particularly rusty!

    For those interested, Osyras (in my characters), will keep the spec I used for the next week or two probably.

    I made a point not to tell anyone I was running with that I was making the change, and fortunately no one thought to inspect me through the night so no one was aware of the switch, or made any note, and at the end of the night I made a point to talk to the people who would notice differences in my threat and survival most.

    If you're more interested in numbers, here are WWS for comparison, roughly equivalent raids, though slightly different in outcome:
    Blood (my usual) = Wow Web Stats
    Frost (for fun!) = Wow Web Stats

    As for perceptions. On my end the difference was very clear, but only slightly consequential.

    Threat:
    This won't come as any great surprise but the threat profiles are very different for the two specs. Blood generates a very stable and consistant amount of threat, where it is mostly through small hits. This is punctuated sometimes by a short chain of HS crits (interestingly I seem to notice when it fires 3 crits in a row, and it's not uncommon) mixed with RS's. Generally speaking my threat is pretty level and only spikes and drops if I line up a couple of DS's in the same set and have a short blackout. Frost on the other hand has really tremendous burst threat. I use the single disease method, essentially HB'ing regularly enough to maintain FF (glyphed) and otherwise spamming OB and swapping runes with BS or BB if the pull has multiple targets. However, because I rely on mostly double rune nukes, I have a lot of rune blackouts. Thankfully, with glyph of FS I can fill many of those GCD's with tastey giant FS's! Watching Omen's measures (6 sec sample) between the two, the difference was very distinct. Blood carries a very solid average and only occasionally raises that to a plateau when crits and RS's line up. Frost on the other hand opens very big, and peaks much sharper, but holds a slightly lower average in between thanks to gaps in damage. Interestingly, Frost did not really out-perform Blood on aoe tanking, it only made it a little more comfortable as the threat was severely front-ended. It also felt a little more helpless when Rime didn't proc early on as once HB and BB were spent I could only OB and FS single targets. Blood, by comparison, feels a little scary at first, but once I get rolling I can chain BB's all day long and not *feel* like I'm stuck in a lull. The difference of course was far more significant to me and how it felt than it was to my dps, no one pulled or noticed the difference (I really need to drill them harder on paying attention to the physical situation, the giant blue/white splashes should've been a dead giveaway).

    Survival:
    Here's the interesting thing. My healers are used to me being Blood. Normally what that means is that they anticipate having to pace heals (compensating for not being the only source of healing) even when they're my only healer. They're also accustomed to only putting one healer on me where otherwise they may assign two. Remember, I told no one, and didn't suggest we do anything differently, so they went about business as usual. My healing is instant, and very fast (when my health drops being able to simultaneously pop Rune Tap and DS is a good 17-24k back depending on buffs), so to my healers it just looks like I need less healing, or like my health doesn't drop the same (latency, my reflexes, etc). All of my healers had a similar response last night. They didn't say anything in the raid, they were sure that it was just a quirk of the evening or bad luck, but when I told them I wasn't my usual spec and wasn't healing myself at all, they let out a big, "Ohhhhhh, so that's why you seemed to take more damage!" They agreed that it was not a big deal, not unhealable, or dangerous, they just weren't used to seeing it. For my part, while the difference is very subtle, I was aware that with my CDs I could take nicely reduced damage and cover a lot of time with this solid small-scale reduction. UA is awfully fun, fully raid buffed it was 20 sec where all the damage I took was about 1900 off the top, VERY useful against tanking lots of small things. And the 50% longer IBF was easy to miss, but nice nonetheless, I found myself using it more tactfully to cover the range, rather than just popping it for short burst moments on damage. I do lament not getting to play with Acclimation, but I rather prefer my spec without it for ease of destruction.

    Looking at the (admittedly rocky way to comparison) numbers from WWS, some interesting values:
    DPS = 2000 as Blood, 2300 as Frost

    We'll use Hodir as an example for survival since I tanked both (though the example where I was Blood was a very slow kill for us):
    Dmg Taken per second = 3600 as Blood, 2800 as Frost
    HPS (all on self) = 1520 as Blood (4m57 out of 8m11 fight), 380 as Frost (2m30 sec of 6m30 fight)

    So, to the healers, it looked like I was only taking 2080 incoming dps when I was Blood, no wonder they felt like I was squishier. I do find it slightly curious though that the average hit size was smaller when I was Blood, and Frost damage was a higher component. Frost has the extra 2% from Imp Frost Pres, but that should apply to both components equally. Otherwise they have no special anti-spell abilities.

    3 major reactions about Frost:
    Scent of Blood is a fantastic ability for generating additional RP, and I had less than a full stack. The extra RP for FS's was much appreciated.

    There are few things more rewarding than, in the span of 10 sec, seeing FS crit for 27k, then seeing HB crit for almost a full 30k. Hodir's buffs are great fun there!

    The biggest thing that I noticed tanking as Frost is that I felt really helpless in terms of my survival. Sure, I took less damage, and I used my CD's as smartly as I could, but when I took a big hit of damage, or the heals were delayed even a little because of some encounter aspect (healers moving out of falling snow, adjusting for range on Ignis, etc), I felt like there was really next to nothing I could do to really save my life, it was only a matter of luck or smart action for my healers. As Blood I've come to take for granted the fact that I can usually DS and Rune Tap on demand and pull myself out of that hole in a significant way. It is this reason I think that I enjoy the feel of Blood tanking better.

    The other thing I missed, was the joys of Hysteria. I suspect many tanks take it as a threat buff, but I actually never intentionally use it on myself (in Ulduar anyway). I actually give it out to one of our best 100% physical damage dpsers (often my feline companion who quite literally tears stuff up). I don't need the threat buff and 20% more of 5k dps is a LOT more than 20% more of 2k dps. =)

    There is no moral of the story here. No grand conclusion about one spec's superiority. I just wanted to share my experiences for anyone who's curious what the other side is like, thinking about switching and not sure what to expect, or just like seeing fun numbers and general pontifications of little importance!
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  11. #11
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    It also depends on the encounter. I favor Frost for Hodir (even for DPS) because the buffs play well with it. With a 25 stack of scorch and storm power, I'll crit 34K with FS (HB is always less... are you using the sigil?), and 28K or so with HB. The guaranteed crits from KM make it even better.

    For something like Vezax, Blood is way better. I used to tank it as frost, because the tank officer in my last guild was blood and he wanted me to tank it. Doing it in hard mode as blood made a world of difference with the self-healing.

    There's also places where Unholy shines, as some of the early tanks for Algalon/Mimiron hard mode/etc., were Unholy because they can mitigate a ton of the magic damage.
    Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. -Seneca
    Everyone marvels at a square egg, but only the chicken understands the PAIN.

  12. #12
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    I'm using my favoritist tanking Sigil of delicious RS making more dodge and more RS's. =) I ended up just using the same gear set after I swapped around some pieces to play up armor for really pushing UA's buff. It would've required a couple gems switched which I didn't feel like doing.

    Magic Suppresion is a barrel of monkeys, and I, for one, love Anti-Magic Zone. It was a lot easier to use when it had a longer window though, since I used it on the group a lot and it isn't often easy to run away from the boss to jump on the group for a second.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

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