1. Late to the party
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## Super heroic strike

I was thinking about our rage issues, and while rage on avoidance may fix the starvation issues, it still forces us to spam HS.

What's the problem with adding a new ability ("Super heroic strike," say) that costs 30 rage and adds double the damage that HS does? Fury and arms can still use HS if they want, but prot can put this souped up version on our bars instead.

Alternatively, you could glyph it up to the super version.

Does this create any problems? I can't think of any.

2. Established Registrant
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How about a HS that scales with rage?

Costs 15 rage + 1/2 of the remaing rage pool
Increases damage by 495 + 33 for every additional point of rage consumed.

495/15 = 33, so this would do the exact same damage per rage as multiple of the current Heroic Strikes.

If at 63 rage, a HS would leave you with: (63-15)/2 = 24 rage, and increase damage by 1287.

The fact that it only consumes half the remaining rage allows for better control. Numbers need some tweaking to get them right, so that rage can be spent in a fluid and controlled manner.

Minor flaw: since this cuts the numbers of HS down, we would get more rage from white attacks.... but that might actually result in a smoother rage income overall.
Last edited by Stengel; 06-30-2009 at 07:45 AM.

3. I try
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Originally Posted by Stengel
How about a HS that scales with rage?

Costs 15 rage + 1/2 of the remaing rage pool
Increases damage by 495 + 33 for every additional point of rage consumed.

495/15 = 33, so this would do the exact same damage per rage as multiple of the current Heroic Strikes.

If at 63 rage, a HS would leave you with: (63-15)/2 = 24 rage, and increase damage by 1287.

The fact that it only consumes half the remaining rage allows for better control. Numbers need some tweaking to get them right, so that rage can be spent in a fluid and controlled manner.

Minor flaw: since this cuts the numbers of HS down, we would get more rage from white attacks.... but that might actually result in a smoother rage income overall.
But with no cool down on it we would still spam it in an infinite/high rage situation and be OP for threat and damage and still have carpal tunnel.

However the idea of a skill called "Super" Heroic Strike makes me smile.

4. Warrior tanking since2004
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Super-Duper Heroic Strike

I think we know that they will most likely make Heroic Strike an ability which takes a large number of rage to use, and does quite a lot of inflated damage and threat. Though how they do this will be difficult because its taking mechanics of rage we already use and just giving us a quicker way to burst out threat and damage.

I think this is a great thing but we would most likely lose some sustained threat to compensate. WTB one HS for every 30 rage and do 7k damage with it. GG

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Originally Posted by Wars

I think this is a great thing but we would most likely lose some sustained threat to compensate. WTB one HS for every 30 rage and do 7k damage with it. GG
Unless they remove the on next swing component, that would make it massively over powered for pvp.

6. The problem with Heroic Strike is not Heroic Strike. Fix rage and you fix Heroic Strike. Anything else is a bandaid. I'd rather spin my mousewheel until 4.0 than have a change that will send even more ripples throught he class balance that need to be reworked later.

7. Late to the party
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Originally Posted by Satrina
The problem with Heroic Strike is not Heroic Strike. Fix rage and you fix Heroic Strike. Anything else is a bandaid. I'd rather spin my mousewheel until 4.0 than have a change that will send even more ripples throught he class balance that need to be reworked later.
Like I said, I think the problem with rage is mostly functional, and in two parts. 1) rage starvation issues when not taking damage (avoidance streaks, off-tanking), and 2) spamming HS is dumb and boring.

Rage on avoidance partially solves the former (and nothing will completely solve it unless prot wars get almost all our rage from damage dealt), and this would solve the latter.

Where's the problem?

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Personally, i just wish I could elbow drop people after a charge. It would add some flare to the class, And elbow dropping Algalon, What more need be said?

9. The problem is that you're still being hit for 100 rage by raid bosses petering down to almost nothing in heroics. That's broken. Treating a single symptom is not the right answer. Rage on avoidance is a necessary bandaid, but it is also one that can be pulled off later with little repercussion.

10. No Sleep
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Any idea what the real hesitation for them implementing rage on outgoing damage is Satrina? Seems like that would be the mechanic fix we need but they don't want to touch it with a 10 foot pole

11. That's a huge change that needs balancing through all three trees. It could be that you'd only want it to happen in defensive stance after all the numbers are crunched, rather than tuning everything. There is a lot of modelling and math that needs to be done to even begin to get that right. It's a WoW 4.0 change, not a WoW 3.2 change.

12. No Sleep
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Ya I figured as much. With the rage on avoidance we would be good to go for 3.2 if they improve our DPS a bit; large changes to rage on outgoing damage / block can come in 4.0. I just wish there was a bandaid fix for Warrior OT's as they are pretty much Fed currently with bad aoe threat, no damage output and no rage

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There's an easy way to deal with the HS spam issue.

I do have everything keybound, with the exception of Vigilance, if I could ever potentially use it for tanking, it's on there. Everything is on bars 3, 4 and 5.

However, I have 5 buttons I tank with primarily, all of them are macros.
My SS, Rev, Dev, Conc Blow, and Shockwave all have a /cast Heroic Strike line in them. Any time I hit 1-5 I queue up a heroic strike.

I have a second bar set up, identical to the first on ability placement, containing only one macro, which is revenge/HS on one key due to the fact that I use Glyph of Revenge. Everything else is just standard abilities. I just Shift+Mousewheel Up/Down to switch between bars mid-fight.
Last edited by Khor; 07-01-2009 at 12:23 PM. Reason: Clarification

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One possible way that HS spaw could be "fixed" and prevent ever so much carpal tunnel would be to just have a toggle. Turn it on and all white attacks are HS until you turn it off or you don't have enough rage to HS anymore.

15. I try
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Originally Posted by Satrina
That's a huge change that needs balancing through all three trees. It could be that you'd only want it to happen in defensive stance after all the numbers are crunched, rather than tuning everything. There is a lot of modelling and math that needs to be done to even begin to get that right. It's a WoW 4.0 change, not a WoW 3.2 change.
The idea of tying it to defensive stance also has strange implications. I remember at some points during leveling I had terrible rage generation as fury. If I could have just swapped to defensive stance in all my DPS gear my rage gen would go through the roof. I would loose a little damage from the stance difference but I would gain all that back in having the rage to do my skill rotation. Also the rotation wouldn't be terrible. Loose WW but gain rend. The reduction on incoming damage over berserker stance would make this ideal for PVP also. Then they'd have to nerf tanks again.

In other words changing the rage mechanic would involve serious work.

My idea however would be to have different rage gen formulas depending on your weapons you have equipped as well as your damage output. Formula A for having a single 2h weapon equipped. Formula B for having two 2h weapons equipped. Formula C for having a single 1h weapon. Might have to make something for the times when you have two 1h weapons and one 2h and one 1h to have an odd TG setup covered and to cover DW sets without TG. Could be the easiest approach however the damage output difference from the stances could skew these. The formula could possibly generate rage as if the stance difference wasn't applied.

Now to be possibly more on topic with the idea of a "super" heroic strike and mechanics we'd like just for funzies. I wish parry rating would improve when you're dual wielding (makes sense right?). Cause when 4.0 comes out I want a TG tanking build thus avoiding the whole shield debacle they've created.
Last edited by Superspy23; 07-13-2009 at 10:15 AM.

16. Raidslave
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It would probably be much easier if the act of being attacked or attacking causes rage gain. Independant of outside factors like the actual damage or the way the Warrior handled or did not handle the attack.

One could then even go as far as proccuring additional "tweaks" by stating the CC spells cause a huge amount of rage gain, ranged attacks more than melee attacks, and so on. A lot of PvP-finetuning is possible within the rage system once one disconnects it from the damage or attack-handling involved.

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I realize this is a bit off topic from the OP but the discussion seems to have drifted this direction anyway...

It seems to me that fixing rage scalability is the key to fixing most of warrior's(and druids to some extent) issues. I realize this doesn't touch block and Savage Defense but those are completely separate issues.

To fix rage, I propose an added benefit to skills like devastate and lacerate, in addition to making these abilities cost no rage. What if each stack acted as some sort of rage siphon or generator. You would still have to pay attention to your rage generation (ie... keeping the stack up) and blizz could tweak it in such a way that you never had infinite rage (no more HS spam). Perhaps blizz could increase agro on a few other abilities to make up for the lack of HS. This would make it possible to walk into a heroic in uld hard mode gear and hold agro but still take close to zero damage. As it should be.

I realize this would cause issues for multi target tanking, but blizz could be solved by giving a set amount of rage for each target your thunder clap hit or something along those lines (TC free of course).

Anyway, there would be a lot of threat value/cool down tweaking on devastate and any other ability that generated rage but I feel that this could be what rage classes need. Put rage generation in the hands of the player!

Feel free to tear this apart if you see glaring problems that I have missed.