Coming Soon, to a PTR Near You...

[Vorps]

Should be 1/2/3/4/5 rage gained for dodge or parry in Deflection and Anticipation. ~_~ Buff Shield Specialization to 1/2/3/4/5 for blocks.

[Jin17]

Is it just me or does anyone else think its rather suspicious that this post from GC comes 3 days after Ciderhelm made his well pointed out post here on Tankspot.
I mean people have been saying this thing about rage on avoidance for years and nobody actually payed them any attention and here we got a fast reply once a powerfull fansite puts the issue out into the public...
If that's the case Ciderhelm should try pointing out something else and see if GC gets pushed into a corner with another reply such as the one we got
But seriously jokes aside this is rather troublesome looking it from another point of view as I have stated before that blizzard is a merchant and will not change the way a product (class/mechanic/spell/etc.) as long as it still sells (keeps players playing) until ofcourse the customers aren't happy anymore and they actually start doing some work - just as I wrote in the start... 3 days after Cider's post.

[Liar]

Is it just me or does anyone else think its rather suspicious that this post from GC comes 3 days after Ciderhelm made his well pointed out post here on Tankspot.

Possible. The other theory (and what I think) is that this damage control after GCs glorious fuck up about Warrior vs Popularity balancing. Note that this isn't even a Warrior buff either, just a fix for quality of life issues we have.

[bmd]

This could be fine the way it is, or it may need some work. I'd like to see some maths or actual numbers. Guess I'll check the ptr out at some point.

[Hit Me]

I'm probably going to drop the two points in cruelty to pick this up. Trying to figure out what to drop with my imp disc spec is going to be tough though.

[Krashtork]

Again: Has anyone actually ran the numbers to see if dropping DW instead of AttT is a better option threat wise? I get that AttT is a great talent, but I haven't seen the numbers of how much TPS 300-500 AP is vs. DW.

[Ricovega]

About time, awesome, its finally being addressed!

[Darksend]

I am running a 5/15/51 spec so I don't have Deep Wounds to drop. Really wonder what I should sacrifice for this. Focused Rage is too good, improved Demo and CS are there because we usually only run 1 or 2 Prot Warriors as our sole Warriors.

Gah, tying it to Shield Spec is dumb. Make it baseline or put it on a talent we already use.

What are the numbers on the new ret pally demo shout?

Thats what I really want to find out

But agreed with a 5/15/51 spec that I also run on my warrior (since my dual spec is now arms) I find it hard to drop anything. Since I always have a ret paladin or frost DK even in my alt 10 mans though imp TC may be the way to go even in that spec. Possibly imp revenge + 1 random or possibly incite? guess im going to have to switch to glyph of vigilance

[Regill]

Again: Has anyone actually ran the numbers to see if dropping DW instead of AttT is a better option threat wise? I get that AttT is a great talent, but I haven't seen the numbers of how much TPS 300-500 AP is vs. DW.

Well using rawr, and *not* accounting for the 3.2 change to AttT...

This is with my current gear setup, basically full uld gear, I assumed unlimited threat (100% HS).
With 15/5/51 - 6539 tps
Drop Deep Wounds (leave 3 pts empty) - 5974 tps
Drop AttT (again leave 3 pts empty) - 6340 tps

So DW gives 566 tps
AttT gives 199 tps

So DW is much better for threat than the current version of AttT. The buffed version is maybe 40% better, roughly? So DW should still be more valuable than AttT after 3.2, though not by as much.

Disclaimer: This is pretty much napkin math here, and shouldn't be considered definitive. It's just what rawr says with my current gear loadout.

[jere]

What are the numbers on the new ret pally demo shout?

Thats what I really want to find out

574 AP reduction

[Liar]

574 AP reduction

I am glad for the Paladin tanks and our raid but I can't help but feel a bit upset about the fact that Druids and Warriors still have to invest 5 talent points into imp Demo to achieve the same results. And yeah, I know it's a ret talent but Prot Paladins already go that far down, don't they?

[Darksend]

I am glad for the Paladin tanks and our raid but I can't help but feel a bit upset about the fact that Druids and Warriors still have to invest 5 talent points into imp Demo to achieve the same results. And yeah, I know it's a ret talent but Prot Paladins already go that far down, don't they?

I find this disturbing as well. Although it only lasts 10 seconds so here is my concern.

warriors pulls demos TCs. Pally procs his demo. 10 seconds later it falls, is the warrior demo still up or will the warriors and druids now have to demo every 10 seconds?

[Liar]

It depends. Does Vindication have a secondary effect on the mob? If yes, then it will be on the boss with Demo Shout/Roar but they will not stack (just like Frost Fever stays on a TCed mob even if the Frost Fever is not improved).

If not, then Vindication will overwrite all lower AP reduction debuffs which have to be reapplied if Vindication should drop off. But I assume Blizz intends to have a 100% uptime on stationary PvE mobs for Vindication anyway.

[Regill]

If vindication has 100% uptime and is as good as imp demo, then we can pretty much skip going that far into the fury tree.

Let a dps warr get commanding presence, and a retadin get the ap debuff. That frees up pts for the tank to spec into better talents. The same effect as imp thunderclap is easy to find on other classes as well, like frost dk and others. No debuffs to worry about, except sunder which takes care of itself.

[Ferag]

There was once a debate on whether or not Cruelty provided more threat than Deep Wounds. I do not recall the final answer, but I am currently specced for Deep Wounds (15/3/53).

If indeed Cruelty is still close to Deep Wounds for threat, a build similar to 7/8/56 might be possible, no? Maybe Impale/Deep Wounds together gives substantially more threat than Cruelty, I do not recall the debate.

At my current gear level (Ulduar 10), I am not often finding myself rage starved, but it can happen. So possibly a solution for those geared similarly to myself would be to drop Improved Disciplines and put those two into Shield Spec. That provides 40% more chance to gain rage on block/dodge/parry, for a talent I did not find particularly important anyways. The only way (IMO) that Imp Disc is good is if you also have glyphed Last Stand/Shield Wall, bringing both to 2 minutes.

If encounters in the new instance call for these OSHI- buttons to be on a 2 minute cooldown, it is pure idiocy to expect Warriors to spend two glyphs and two talents to be able to tank.

Ramblings put into a long post, not sure if it's quality.

[jere]

It depends. Does Vindication have a secondary effect on the mob? If yes, then it will be on the boss with Demo Shout/Roar but they will not stack (just like Frost Fever stays on a TCed mob even if the Frost Fever is not improved).

If not, then Vindication will overwrite all lower AP reduction debuffs which have to be reapplied if Vindication should drop off. But I assume Blizz intends to have a 100% uptime on stationary PvE mobs for Vindication anyway.

No secondary effect on the new Vindication, just the AP loss.

I am less upset about having so spend less talent points to get it. We spend 6 talents points just to get the same level of damage reduction warriors get for free in Defensive Stance. We don't even have a baseline version of demo like bears/warriors do. I do think they should probably drop it down to like 2-3 talent points though (20/40%). 5 points does seem hefty.

[Togrin]

Well probably not the change we were hoping for, but probably it will do. DPS should remain fairly the same even when dropping DW since you can spam more Heroic Strikes or generally don't have to wait to be able to do something.

As for where to take the points from, TC is a no go for me, I wouldn't want to miss the AOE tanking ability as well as being able to debuff the boss myself. What if the person who is supposed to debuff dies, disconnects, I don't think that it's a good idea to minmax in this matter, redundance is king here I believe. I will probably have to drop DW and will go just for impale instead, taking those 3 points in said talent, which would look accordingly:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

[reasonyousmile]

YES
YES
*kisses ground*

No more worrying that good gear is actually gonna make me suck.

[mistersix]

Should be 1/2/3/4/5 rage gained for dodge or parry in Deflection and Anticipation. ~_~ Buff Shield Specialization to 1/2/3/4/5 for blocks.

This. ^^

More flexibility. Makes more sense conceptually as well. Plus it's a model that could be adapted across the board (give the equivalent to the same abilities for bears, dks, and paladins).

[phaze]

Should be 1/2/3/4/5 rage gained for dodge or parry in Deflection and Anticipation. ~_~ Buff Shield Specialization to 1/2/3/4/5 for blocks.

That's a good way to make this a boost, without requiring changes to talent choices. Good call! =)