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Thread: 27% Hit rating for DW DK Tanking?

  1. #21
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    Also worth mentioning is that HB is generally only used on trash mobs, at least by me, the only time I use it on a boss is when Rime procs (but I tank bosses in Blood spec anyway, so moot point). Trash mobs are generally 80 Elites so you are less likely to miss with spells, +hit debuffs probably aren't on all your targets. Conversely on bosses you will have +hit debuffs so your HB and FS are more likely to hit. Not sure if I had a point here...

  2. #22
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    i use HB often and with extreme prejudice. The only time i don't use it is during delicate pulls. For example, single-target pull on Emalon. Conversely, HB + BB rocks for locking aggro on his adds...

  3. #23
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    I actually tanked Uld25 last night as full on Frost, and I was a little surprised. From all my math and considerations I expected Oblit to always be superior on single targets than HB, but HB would win out for total effect if I was hitting more than one thing.

    Much to my surprise, HB hit distinctly harder even on single targets (OB not glyphed, but the difference was about 19%, compare to the glyph at 20% increase, see here), AND it had a higher crit rate! I was using it very conservatively on single targets, Rime procs and FF refreshes only pretty much. I think I really underestimated the effect of a single disease methodology on reducing OB damage. Knowing this going forward I'll be using it as it is available, always! =)

    Also interesting, with my current state of gear for hit and expertise (slightly below hit cap, slightly over expertise soft-cap) I actually had a higher total miss % with Oblit than I did with HB. Parry is not our friend.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  4. #24
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    You're not showing up as Frost spec on armory but i take it you used FS, HB and RS glyphs then ?
    Your findings on "HB vs OB", from damage done to hits landed, are indeed intriguing.

    I currently use a rather "traditional" Frost spec for MT(with a standard 2 disease based rotation) and another Frost spec centered around HB but just for trash or large number of adds such as thorims arena.

    I've always been wary of trying a single disease rotation but i must admit this has peeked my interest because i wasnt expecting it to be competitive TPS wise

  5. #25
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    I'm really not sure where I stand on the howling blast vs obliterate debate. I can see three (possibly four) distinct rotations, and each one is going to have different requirements and advantages.

    IT->PS->Oblit->BS->BS
    Oblit->Oblit->Oblit
    (Requires BotN, Epidemic)

    IT->PS->Oblit->BS->BS
    IT->PS->Oblit->Oblit
    (Requires BotN)

    HB->Oblit->BS->BS
    Oblit->Oblit->Oblit
    (Requires BotN, Epidemic, Glyph of Howling Blast)

    HB->Oblit->BS->BS
    HB->Oblit->Oblit
    (Requires BotN, Glyph of Howling Blast)

    The first two rotations are going to place an additional restriction on substituting howling blast for obliterate: either killing machine is inactive, and it has a lower crit rate for comparable expected damage, or killing machine is active, and you are depriving a frost strike of the critical hit - TANSTAAFL. Here, I would say running the obliterate spam is ideal, and the only time howling blast becomes valuable is for multiple targets, or if rime is active and the blast will not deprive a future frost strike of a killing machine proc (either because RP is too drained to fire FS's, or because KM is down).

    The second two are different - howling blast is actually replacing Icy Touch, which would have consumed the KM charge anyway. Here, you actually are just generating free damage out of KM-HB. Obliterate and Blood Strike will generate lower damage overall, but this is in exchange for more open global cooldowns, which may allow for more frost strike usage.

    A few things to keep in mind long term as well, as per the current PTR notes: 3.2 will increase the value of the second disease in several ways - blood plague's damage increases, and the multiplier for Blood Strike's damage increases drastically. Also, 3.2 will result in blood strike/obliterate being completely retooled while dual wielding, which may cause a shift in the relative value of Obliterate vs Howling Blast.

    -Splug

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    I actually tanked Uld25 last night as full on Frost, and I was a little surprised. From all my math and considerations I expected Oblit to always be superior on single targets than HB, but HB would win out for total effect if I was hitting more than one thing.

    Much to my surprise, HB hit distinctly harder even on single targets (OB not glyphed, but the difference was about 19%, compare to the glyph at 20% increase, see here), AND it had a higher crit rate! I was using it very conservatively on single targets, Rime procs and FF refreshes only pretty much. I think I really underestimated the effect of a single disease methodology on reducing OB damage. Knowing this going forward I'll be using it as it is available, always! =)

    Also interesting, with my current state of gear for hit and expertise (slightly below hit cap, slightly over expertise soft-cap) I actually had a higher total miss % with Oblit than I did with HB. Parry is not our friend.
    It's the lack of blood plague, it affects OB more than it seems at first. Frost is my favorite spec, but the only complaint I have is the fact that Oblit takes such a huge hit if you skip PS (which I like to do when I glyph for HB). If you had blood plague up, the additional 12.5% improved by the bonses from talents should make OB slightly better than HB for single target.

  7. #27
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    Indeed. The tricky thing is, the single disease rotation fits so nicely, while setting and maintaining Blood Plague is much more difficult. It's also a long-term matter that affects rotation making it hard to simply gauge the trade off in keeping the disease up to get damage back on BS and OB (conveniently BB, HB, RS, and FS are all completely independent of if there is one disease or two).

    And for Emi, I actually went with glyphs for HB, FS, and UA (sucker for survival). RS would be a fine glyph but I wanted to see if the survival gain was significant. Adding 200-300 reduction seems pretty trivial against a boss, but rockin' against aoe packs.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  8. #28
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    It's also worth noting that a single-disease rotation will inhibit the effectiveness of death strike. Usually, when you need to resort to DS it's too late to apply the second disease quickly - so you just have to accept the reduced effectiveness. It's not something frost relies on regularly, but it does pull one more tool from the arsonel.

    -Splug

  9. #29
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    So just to clarify my nooby brain:

    For DW Tank, 8% hit (263 hit rating) is still enough for soft cap? And expertise is still going to be 26 for soft cap?

    sorry if i am redundant, but is harder for me to find DW Tank than 2h

  10. #30
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    Correct.

    8% will cap your non-spell special abilities (pretty much only IT, DC, and HB use the full spell hit cap, DnD and UB do not).

    Having those same base stats as a dual wielder will allow you fine performance with little distinguishable difference from a 2h outside of melee swings and strikes hitting a bit softer but melee swings coming much faster.

    The hard cap for dual wielding non-special melee swings will be 27% though, so you can spell hit cap and still be getting a benefit on those white swings as well.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    As far as the threat of duel weilding frost vs any other tanking tree with a 2 handed weapon, I tanked 10 man ToGC last night as a guild run with the OT being a DW Frost DK. I usually tank in blood spec, just for the self heals that it has, and during our raid last night i actually had to shadowmeld several times becouse my auto attacks were pulling aggro from the DW'ing tank. I dont know if its just him or not, but ive noticed that he cant hold aggro at all against any kind of dps unless he gets about 20 seconds to build a threat lead on them. Might just be him, not sure if others are havingthis problem or not, if its just him, let me know, ive got two 1 handers in my bank id like to try out as duel weilding.

  12. #32
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    Dec 2008
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    I would have to know his spec, gear and rotation before being able to tell you what the issue was. poor threat can be a result of any number of factors.

    Without even knowing any of that, however, he may want to consider using the sigil of Virulence. this sigil is a wonderful threat tool for DK's. 400 ap and 50 parry rating from the +200 str proc, and at 20 seconds, a proper rotation that utilizes OB correctly will give near 100% up-time.

  13. #33
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    Oct 2008
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    Suffice to say, Dual Wield Frost tanking in and of itself has zero threat problems, if you're running up against the tanks threat it's a matter of the tank (and his gear, spec, and skill).

    Though after re-reading your post, if I understand correctly that you are the MT and just dpsing his target in Frost Presence, then I'd wager it's less severe of an issue (though still a matter of those three, not the tree alone).
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

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