+ Reply to Thread
Page 7 of 11 FirstFirst ... 5 6 7 8 9 ... LastLast
Results 121 to 140 of 205

Thread: 3.2 and DK DW'ing

  1. #121
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Lynchburg, VA
    Posts
    256
    I haven't had the chance to raid with 0/53/18 yet but I can see the potential for threat problems since I kill 81 elites in IC very very quickly. That much burst has to be a threat hog.

    Only problem I have is using the standard rotation of IT-PS-OB-BSx2 (dump) 3xOB (dump) that if rime and KM arent up I am sitting at full RP and if I dump with FS I will eat the KM proc (since KM usually proc's during the 1st part of the rotation). Typically during the 1st part of the rotation KM will be up but as I finish out the 2nd BS I am at 120 RP and have to chose to dump with FS burning KM or just sitting there with RP and starting the OBx3 and praying Rime procs during that time. If not the KM is eaten with the IT. I havent tested it enough to determine if I should just sit there at full RP and save the KM or use it on the FS dump and hope it procs again. Anyone else tested this and have any input?

  2. #122
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    785
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Fea, I find your comments disturbing, you are usually far more insightful.

    Similar to the complaints about shield block for warriors. It's not a game winning massive survival effect, but it is a solid and steady damage reduction tool. It doesn't shine like IBF may, but it certainly has its value. Maybe this will make more sense in perspective when I finish my next installment on the Survival Contribution Breakdowns.
    It's not that it doesn't have clear value as a damage mitigator, it just isn't even in the same ballpark as Vamp. Blood or Whirling Bones. In addition it barely scales and uses a frost rune... Sometimes you really don't need survival breakdowns to figure out somethings practical use in game. It's fine for Kologarn's rubble and Naxxramas' spider packs, but when it's an actually difficult fight it just doesn't cut it.
    Last edited by Edgewalker; 08-06-2009 at 08:07 AM.

  3. #123
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Yay, math time.

    First, nitpick: Vamp Blood costs a Blood rune, Bone Shield costs an Unholy rune.

    Second, boss swing, gross simplification!!

    Here's our DK tank: 48k health, 65% rdx from armor (~31k armor), 9.75% rdx from Frost Pres/Blade Barrier, and 58% avoidance (and 1200 Str)
    Our Opponent: 60k unmitigated hits every 2 sec.

    Vamp Blood will give you 20 sec with 55.2k health and +35% on all incoming heals. Assuming you have good heals incoming, this is very powerful though it doesn't reduce your damage taken whatsoever. Functionally, we'll just assume heals are sufficient and you aren't taking hits big enough to one-shot you. If all incoming heals, adjusted for proportion of total healing done to you, average out to 50% overhealing (this may be generous or conservative, depending on the situation), then you could say this is effectively 17.5% damage reduction on everything that hits you during the duration. This is not fixed, Vamp Blood's relative value is dependent on the incoming heals, proportional overhealing, and requires that you don't need additional mitigation to survive the hits. Strong, yay. If we use 17.5% apparent rdx, that means the DK will appear to take about 3365 dps (3859 actual) in 18.4k swings as much as every 2 sec.

    Now, let's look at Bone Shield (we'll compare them all unglyphed). With 58% avoidance we can approximate the average uptime at about 20 sec (convenient, eh?). During that time, all (4) swings taken will be reduced by 20%. That means the tank will take 3087 dps in 14.7k swings as much as every 2 sec.

    And finally, Unbreakable Armor. Note the example is an average swinging boss with big fat hits. UA will be up for 20 sec and remove 1550 dmg from each hit, and from the Str buff will get ~1.2% more parry. That means that the tank will take 3432 dps in 16.8k hits as much as every 2 sec.

    So, for matching uptimes, during the effects, the Blood tank will take the most damage but be the most healable (assuming no big hit spikes kill him), the Unholy tank will take the least damage (assuming the avoidance holds out for optimal duration), and the Frost tank will take slightly more damage than the Unholy tank, less than the Blood tank, and will have unvarying protection.

    I don't think there is a clear winner in the comparison, though certain styles will appeal to some over others.

    If you want to add the complication of "but there are other forms of damage incoming!!" The Blood tank still won't mitigate any of them, and the Unholy tank will run a higher risk of consuming the bones faster and shortening the duration. I love Vamp Blood, it is surely my favorite, but I don't think Unbreakable Armor is somehow dwarfed by the other two.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  4. #124
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    375
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Similar to the complaints about shield block for warriors. It's not a game winning massive survival effect, but it is a solid and steady damage reduction tool. It doesn't shine like IBF may, but it certainly has its value. Maybe this will make more sense in perspective when I finish my next installment on the Survival Contribution Breakdowns.
    This is more or less the problem: it's an extra tertiary cooldown (comparable to shield block) instead of a secondary (comparable to last stand); its effectiveness is on the wrong tier. From an overall throughput analysis, this is offset by frost's longer duration on icebound fortitude. From actual field testing, the extra six seconds of IBF often are excess - to paraphrase something a friend often said regarding shield wall, if the first twelve seconds at half damage aren't going to save you, are the next six?

    The main issue is just an inability to rotate a percentage based cooldown every minute. This is an option for every other tank in 3.2, as well as both other deathknight trees. The fact that paladins were reliant on Glyph of Salvation as a secondary/tertiary cooldown was deemed an unacceptable problem and brought about the 3.2 version of the Ardent Defender. Unbreakable armor is not worthless in all circumstances, but it falls drastically short in a fairly common case.

    -Splug
    Last edited by Splug; 08-06-2009 at 09:06 AM. Reason: wall, block - not same

  5. #125
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Did you read the above?

    Is any amount of attempted comparison going to open your minds to a new appreciation for the different sorts of damage prevention in their relative value?
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  6. #126
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,442
    Quote Originally Posted by Pruke View Post
    I haven't had the chance to raid with 0/53/18 yet but I can see the potential for threat problems since I kill 81 elites in IC very very quickly. That much burst has to be a threat hog.

    Only problem I have is using the standard rotation of IT-PS-OB-BSx2 (dump) 3xOB (dump) that if rime and KM arent up I am sitting at full RP and if I dump with FS I will eat the KM proc (since KM usually proc's during the 1st part of the rotation). Typically during the 1st part of the rotation KM will be up but as I finish out the 2nd BS I am at 120 RP and have to chose to dump with FS burning KM or just sitting there with RP and starting the OBx3 and praying Rime procs during that time. If not the KM is eaten with the IT. I havent tested it enough to determine if I should just sit there at full RP and save the KM or use it on the FS dump and hope it procs again. Anyone else tested this and have any input?
    /cough...That's a DPS question in a whole lotta tanking posts. I'll cover this.

    Eat the KM proc. It's not a big deal however if you have Rime come up, you'll have it up for I think 20-30 seconds. This allows you to wait for a KM proc to happen. You should prioritize KM for Howling Blast, but if you cannot, just eat it with Frost Strike, and it won't be the end of the world. Don't worry about it and eaaaaaaaaaaat the KM buff

    As another note, a whole lotta stuff having to be learnt for tanking. You people hurt my head. -.-

    Tankspot Moderator
    Twitter: Follow me on Twitter! @Krenian

    "Damnit!" - Jack Bauer, 24


  7. #127
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Lynchburg, VA
    Posts
    256
    Duh really didnt even consider the fact it was a tank thread

    Thx though sorry for the derail.

  8. #128
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    375
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Did you read the above?

    Is any amount of attempted comparison going to open your minds to a new appreciation for the different sorts of damage prevention in their relative value?
    The problem is that you're using a strict throughput damage analysis. That's fine for some cases - in fact, it would likely be both valid and favorable for Algalon. But the problem isn't throughput - it's TTL, particularly when using the secondary cooldown to rotate with IBF for high-surge damage scenarios. It doesn't shave enough damage off to survive a ~55k fusion punch, 30k/sec plasma blast (~5.3% reduction), or 40k unbalancing strike with surrounding autoattacks. I don't have the numbers for Vezax's autoattack during surge of darkness, but I suspect it's not particularly promising there either (then again, bone shield was too close for comfort as well). There are at least three encounters where the spec simply cannot fulfill roles the other trees are able to without fairly drastic strategy adjustments involving remapping additional external cooldowns.

    It works acceptably on paper, against a target doing more or less fixed damage at a fairly normal damage level. The problem is using the cooldown where it's needed - abnormal damage levels, which occur fairly frequently in Ulduar - comes up short.

    -Splug

  9. #129
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    785
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Yay, math time
    You use way too much math and not enough common sense relating to how Blizzard actually designs bosses and scenarios where tanks ACTUALLY die. Math is fun. You can make great gear comparisons for EH, you can parse exact TPS increases... but you can't ever measure intangibles. Would Armsman to gloves be a better threat enchant than 20 hit? In most scenarios, probably. Will Armsman to gloves matter if you miss 3 attacks in a row off an Assault Bot spawn and a DPS kills themself? No it won't. (Please don't attempt to break down a hyperbolic example). In a mathematical scenario will you take less damage with 2 dodge trinkets then the 2 HP trinkets over the course of a fight? Sure. Are you still better suited overall with a higher stamina pool and clickable trinkets though when you are actually in danger of death? Yes.
    UB is the EXACT same way. It does reduce damage by a decent amount, and does a good job of constant overall mitigation, but where tanks actually die is spike damage. Plasma Blast, Rune Punch, Unbalancing Strike, Every Other Vezax surge. The damage mitigation isn't broken down into a nice little math package then, but a messy spike of parry hasted melees, Sif frostbolts, and Doomfire. It comes up short, and in a BIG, very noticeable way.
    Last edited by Edgewalker; 08-06-2009 at 02:52 PM.

  10. #130
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    234
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Fea, I find your comments disturbing, you are usually far more insightful.
    Well I am sorry to hear that but even after reading your maths (that are always welcome) I keep it; it may be as good as BS for total damage reduced, but that's not what kill a tank in wotk (or pre-BS nerf DK would have been god, we was taking half the damage of others tank at this time; and we werent even considered OP, like in 3.1).
    Like splug said, the important thing about a CD is to be able to help survive a high-surge scenario (see splug's examples), and UA isnt doing the job.
    It may change if futur bosses are more about total damage but for now, every wotk boss has been about high-spike damage. Even when mana is a problem (vezax by example) it still most of the time the high spike period that will kill the tank, not the overall damage.

    I cant think of any boss in Ulduar (or even before) where I would consider UA to be enough to use it as I use other CD. At best I could use it like we were using BS before, everytime it's up to reduce total damage; but it would be up only 1/6th of the time.

  11. #131
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,442
    UA's actually pretty damn terrible. I actually hate the ability to be honest with you. I don't think it's a good enough ability.

    Tankspot Moderator
    Twitter: Follow me on Twitter! @Krenian

    "Damnit!" - Jack Bauer, 24


  12. #132
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    A Mile High!
    Posts
    116
    Nice breakdown above, Satorri.

    So has anyone actually tried Ulduar 25 in the new Frost spec with decent gear rotating in UBA? As much as I QQ'd about the patch I am liking it in 2H Blood so far, but I am still debating on whether or not I want to try a DW Frost in raids this week. I personally don't think UBA is that bad of a CD, dam reduction on every incoming hit, plus 25% strength for a bunch of extra parry and threat. Its no Vampiric Blood, but hey, it got me through Naxx 25 just fine back in the day.

  13. #133
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    234
    I just though about a much similar cd in the result: UA is pretty close in effect to Mark of blood, exept for the parry part. With my gear, Mark of blood is aprox 1K5 heal and UA is 1200 dmg reduction every hit. does that seem accurate?
    And Mark of blood can have it's use, but it's no way near good as Vampiric blood or even BS

  14. #134
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Every ability has its values, and it's easy to highlight where something fails and another ability succeeds, my desire is only to highlight where the rather unpopular abilities do just fine, if only for the sake of mitigating the lemming herd of blind followers who will go parrot to trade chat, "Unbreakable Armor is worthless! [I read it on TankSpot]"

    Unbreakable Armor is less helpful in some of the places where we want to rely on CDs most, but it is anything but a broken or unhelpful ability. I just want to keep that in perspective.

    And Edge, I use math, yes, to support practical understandings, and also to rein in some "practical" understandings that get out of line or inflated with filtered perception. Your sin in this is that you flout opinions without every backing them up with supporting data or calculations. It's a hard distinction but there is such a thing as Opinion-Truth and Factual-Truth. Just because you have done it, doesn't mean you understand the nature of how you did it. Just because it works doesn't mean it is "best." And just because something is the "best" doesn't make it the "only viable choice." Rhetoric which is grossly abused in our community.

    You can say, "Unbreakable Armor is awful" without demonstrating, and you are speaking your truth, you really believe that. That doesn't make it factual, nor is that at all supported, even by circumstantial math.

    Seeing as this is a forum for discussing and elevating knowledge on abilities, unsupported opinions are rather out of place other than to illustrate the mental state of the community, be it ignorant or actually informed.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  15. #135
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    375
    The problem is that there are cases where damage comes in rapid, small bursts - and there unbreakable armor is superior, but bone shield / vampiric blood can get the job done. In the reverse cases, where damage comes in abnormally large bombs, unbreakable armor is not only inferior, it is incapable of providing survival. It is difficult to justify a talent for across-the-board balance when the difference in some cases becomes a binary death/non-death scenario, where the alternative does not have any equivalent binary shortcomings in current content.

    That said, on a note of irony I was in a position last night where I would have greatly preferred unbreakable armor, but was required to apply ebon plaguebringer and thus unable to dual spec back to frost. Bone shield was about as far from ideal as possible, even though it was still sufficient for the application (barely).

    -Splug

    EDIT: I think we're beating a dead horse at this point; everyone has expressed their viewpoints fairly well. To get back to the original question in the thread - dual wielding's threat as frost was viable in my experience, and dual wielding's survivability with respect to the same tree as 2h is comparable. Inter-tree comparisons are an entirely different beast.
    Last edited by Splug; 08-07-2009 at 01:11 PM.

  16. #136
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    785
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    And Edge, I use math, yes, to support practical understandings, and also to rein in some "practical" understandings that get out of line or inflated with filtered perception. Your sin in this is that you flout opinions without every backing them up with supporting data or calculations. It's a hard distinction but there is such a thing as Opinion-Truth and Factual-Truth. Just because you have done it, doesn't mean you understand the nature of how you did it. Just because it works doesn't mean it is "best." And just because something is the "best" doesn't make it the "only viable choice." Rhetoric which is grossly abused in our community.
    You misjudge what I said. Math has it's purposes, but making up a scenario that mathematically turns Unbreakable Armor into a tanking cooldown that is even remotely optimal for a progression oriented tank is not one of them. Encounters of difficulty where Unbreakable Armor is even in the same ballpark as Vamp. Blood or Bones don't exist. In this way it IS a broken cooldown. The threat increase doesn't account for the loss in practical use and something in the ability needs to, and will change. I've been contributing here since the start of this site, I don't always bother writing a 15 page essay on why abilities are and aren't good, but that never changes the final verdict.
    Last edited by Edgewalker; 08-07-2009 at 09:50 PM.

  17. #137
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    25
    I've tried DW tanking for a bit and found it to be far superior to Blood in 3.2. I use a 13/51/7 spec, I wouldn't tank Vezax with it but everything else is great. Hodir is no problem due to you having Frost Strike and Howling Blast to combo with Singed.

    Unbreakable Armor kinda sucks but the avoidance advantage of Frost with 2 tank weapons is immense. You end up like 7-11% ahead of the other tanks in avoidance, depending on your gear level and race choice. (Warriors don't have a 200 dodge sigil/libram, Paladins can't be Night Elf.) There's also some really damn good 3.2 itemization for DW in the game, you can dual-wield these which is utterly amazing.

  18. #138
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Edge, you have yet to contribute anything to this discussion other than your statement: Unbreakable Armor doesn't work.


    Saying it doesn't make it so.
    Last edited by Satorri; 08-10-2009 at 07:28 AM.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  19. #139
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    785
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Edge, you have yet to contribute anything to this discussion other than your statement: Unbreakable Armor doesn't work.


    Saying it doesn't make it so.
    Sure I have, you just can't seem to grasp it or understand it.
    Let me say it again, slowly.
    Unbreakable. Armor. Is. Static. Damage. Reduction.
    This is a fact.
    This is why it does not work acceptably as a survival cooldown in comparison to VE or Bones (or Barkskin/SI or Last Stand/SW or AD/DP if it is a total comparison). When bosses hit hard, it is less effective.
    Tanks die when bosses hit harder.

    I could make you a damned flowchart or make up a page of math like you LOVE to do, but frankly it's, as described earlier, a waste of time.

  20. #140
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Oh well. Now I see the light, this time when you say the same thing, it totally has opened my eyes.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts