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Thread: 3.2 and DK DW'ing

  1. #101
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    this is outstanding Splug. I'm sure everyone appreciates you taking the time to run the reports. I certainly do

    am i reading that right? Melee miss rate on Freya went up by 7% while DW'ing?

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    54.3% versus 61.9%. amazing.
    Last edited by lyd; 07-23-2009 at 06:56 AM.

  2. #102
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    There's a lot of movement on that encounter, and I tend to get poked in the back occasionally. Data for avoidance on Freya is going to be sketchy... though misses should be omnidirectional, so that shouldn't be effected. I net lose defense and the SSG rune (and thus miss chance), it's just raw dodge/parry that go up. I'm guessing the miss difference there is pure RNG. EDIT: Oh, you meant total avoidance, not pure miss. Yeah - a big factor there is going to be hits in the back while repositioning. Usually, "run like hell and get away from the raid with Nature's Fury" is less total damage done than backing/strafing slowly away to ensure she's in front of me. So it's not random, I may have just had better facing last night. 62% avoidance is about right for my gear, 54.3% is low. That said, it should statistically have increased - just that it's hard to measure how much of that increase was better play and how much was the weapon change. I wouldn't throw it out completely, but I would caveat any observations on avoidance in that encounter.

    Anyway, glad I could help. The Vezax results should be pure (it's just a really long tank and spank from my end, which is perfect for this) and back the math I'd done back before WotLK even hit. The only consideration would be using an avoidance 2h such as ID or Rune Edge to bump up 2h avoidance by another 1-2%, but even then it should be a very small gain.

    -Splug
    Last edited by Splug; 07-23-2009 at 08:09 AM.

  3. #103
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    Splug, something you may want to try (and something I should go try), is to go beat on Anachronos. (He's the dragon outside caverns of time). He doesn't hit hard, so you will stay up easy. He has 1.6m health and despawns at 20%. You could just soft reset him after a certain point and would give you fairly stable data.

  4. #104
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    Slow tanking weapons - will there be any in 3.2?

  5. #105
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    None yet discovered that I've heard of, but I haven't been paying terribly close attention.


    Also, bear in mind, the bosses in the Coliseum raids will be released one at a time.
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    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  6. #106
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    Suggested Combat Stats For DW

    So, this thread has some good information and theroycrafting about DW tanking in 3.2. I personally would love to try it.

    That said, what would you guys recommend for our combat stats before charging in to Ulduar 10 with a weapon in each hand?

    I'm assuming the following, but would like to hear your opinions.

    Expertise: 6.5% (Can't be dodged, can still be parried)
    Hit: Somewhere above 8%. Far above? Obviously can't cap white hits.

    I would also assume that I would be taking Virulence and Nerves of Cold Steel.

    Thanks in advance.


    -Marrz

  7. #107
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    Nerves of Cold Steel, yes, Virulence, maybe, it's worth making your HB's hit more often for sure. Especially if you won't have a boomkin or spriest which for many will be far less common in 10-mans. That said, I'd prioritize survival over Virulence, as generally as is possible.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  8. #108
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    There aren't enough points available for me to pursue Virulence; I'm fairly confident Scent of Blood and Bladed Armor both have better returns, and I'll need 52 in frost to reach everything I want from the bottom of the tree there.

    I'm not too worried about the hard hit/expertise values. Staying over the dodge cap will be worthwhile, pursuing beyond that or stacking more than about 4% hit is pushing excess threat. If gear makes more conveniently available, cool. If not, I'll run lower threat gear and continue to carry around my Pyrite Infuser as a quick swap-in fix for encounters with asymetric damage levels.

    -Splug

  9. #109
    So slow/slow, fast/slow, slow/fast, or fast/fast? And y?
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  10. #110
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    As already mentionned in this thread, idealy slow/slow; but for tanking there isnt any slow weapon as far as I know but even with a fast/fast combo, the dmg/threat on specials should be better than with a 2H so...

  11. #111
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    So I am curious....I am mostly all geared in Ulduar 10/25 gear but my 1h weapons for DW tanking (which I tried out briefly as Unholy) are only ilvl 200s...how do you think the threat generation would be with those? Probably too low? Should I hold off on trying out the DW until I can get a couple new ones from Ulduar/CC?

    I had stopped rolling on the 1handers after having some threat issues with DW and switching back to 2H Blood. I am thinking maybe I should have been rolling on those instead of letting them go to the dogs for offspec.

    Also, has anyone figured out a viable DW Frost build since the patch dropped?

  12. #112
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    After the first 25 boss in Ulduar, and another HM Ulduar 25 clear, I find DW to be very lackluster. Unbreakable Armor isn't as good as Vamp Blood, you lose Hysteria, you lose VoTW, and you lose Death Strike as a constant heal. For the return I was hoping for a spec that allowed consistently higher threat generation, but was quite let down.
    Meh. Was using the very top end DW gear as well, double Invars, 13% hit and capped 56 expertise.


    Edit - 13/53/5
    Last edited by Edgewalker; 08-04-2009 at 11:07 PM.

  13. #113
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    Dual wielding threat and throughput mitigation are fine. I was playing around with a death-strike based DW spec initially, then tweaked to obliterate-based. There was a non-trivial threat/survivability tradeoff in there, but ultimately the throughput on either side was fine. The threat sacrifice to use death strike as a primary attack was suprisingly small; by focussing on heavy RP generation via fast-swinging weapons and SoB,

    The problem is that frost is extremely hurt for cooldown power. It was behind before, but the 1 minute IBF cooldown somewhat bandaged the problem with the longer uptime. The relative value of Guile of Gorefiend has been halved from a throughput perspective, and outright crippled from a "secondary cooldown standin" perspective. From this angle, frost plays similar to a 3.1 paladin, with a 2-minute recast on holy shield (unbreakable armor). Substituting death strike for obliterate assuaged the lack of a shield slightly, but the breaking point far and away was the lack of mitigation on demand.

    -Splug

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splug View Post
    Dual wielding threat and throughput mitigation are fine. I was playing around with a death-strike based DW spec initially, then tweaked to obliterate-based. There was a non-trivial threat/survivability tradeoff in there, but ultimately the throughput on either side was fine. The threat sacrifice to use death strike as a primary attack was suprisingly small; by focussing on heavy RP generation via fast-swinging weapons and SoB,

    The problem is that frost is extremely hurt for cooldown power. It was behind before, but the 1 minute IBF cooldown somewhat bandaged the problem with the longer uptime. The relative value of Guile of Gorefiend has been halved from a throughput perspective, and outright crippled from a "secondary cooldown standin" perspective. From this angle, frost plays similar to a 3.1 paladin, with a 2-minute recast on holy shield (unbreakable armor). Substituting death strike for obliterate assuaged the lack of a shield slightly, but the breaking point far and away was the lack of mitigation on demand.

    -Splug
    That's exactly by point. We knew the trade-offs already existed, which it could have made up for by having exceptional value elsewhere. It didn't. And the threat is extremely sub-par. While it certainly CAN hold agro, it is still quite a bit behind a traditional blood or frost spec. For most raids, 3000 TPS on Vezax simply wouldn't cut it. I do roughly 6500+ with some parses over 7500 and still have DPS nipping at me off and on.

    As for tanking weapons, new Ulduar gear lets you easily use 2 DPS weapons and maintain defense cap. I was sitting at almost 570 defense after getting 2 new pieces before I shuffled things around.
    Last edited by Edgewalker; 08-05-2009 at 12:20 AM.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    I find DW to be very lackluster. Unbreakable Armor isn't as good as Vamp Blood,

    I disagree, unbreakable armor is the only one that will give a good dps buff as well, to me, vamp blood was only attractive back when it had a 1 min cooldown.
    But that's just my opinion, I'd like to tank as blood, but I've it so 'paniced' when compared to frost.

  16. #116
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    Mmm, Vamp Blood is a wonderfully delicious defensive CD. Unbreakable Armor is actually the only tank CD DK's have that could actually be used for a threat boost as well.

    I'm looking forward to a night of stability where I can actually start testing the new lay of the land against real situations.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    I'm looking forward to a night of stability where I can actually start testing the new lay of the land against real situations.
    Im looking forward to hearing about it
    Thereś nothing Id want more than to DW tank

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Mmm, Vamp Blood is a wonderfully delicious defensive CD. Unbreakable Armor is actually the only tank CD DK's have that could actually be used for a threat boost as well.
    Imo, it's not even a tank CD, it's a threat/dps cd; the mitigation part is worst than pal/war block and it's only up 20sec/2min. I cant see any situation where it could be used like any other tanks cd (i.e. to prevent/reduce a damage spike period).

    That's my main concern about frsot tank, we only have one real tank CD (IBF) who have been reduced to 2min; I will test it a bit more but I am already thinking about going back to blood, to at least being at same HP than war (cause all the comparison showing that we was at same HP was in blood, as far as I know; frost and unholy are behind).

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by NexsusTheFrostDeathKnight View Post
    Im looking forward to hearing about it
    Thereś nothing Id want more than to DW tank
    That's what dual-spec is for I kept my original blood tanking spec and picked up a 'standard' deep frost DW spec. First night we tried out 10 man colliseum. Not the best place to try out a new spec, especially if your guild hasn't piled up enough T8. But I saw alot of potential there, threat was through the roof, but I want a good Naxx or Ulduar run so I can look at the parses.

  20. #120
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    Fea, I find your comments disturbing, you are usually far more insightful.

    Similar to the complaints about shield block for warriors. It's not a game winning massive survival effect, but it is a solid and steady damage reduction tool. It doesn't shine like IBF may, but it certainly has its value. Maybe this will make more sense in perspective when I finish my next installment on the Survival Contribution Breakdowns.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

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