3.2 and DK DW'ing

[Jaeden]

My apologies if I actually missed it while reviewing the thread, but do we have any current accepted dw builds, dps and tank? EJ is being mum on it until they crunch their numbers.

[Feanorr]

Does the assumption that slow 1H for main hand will still be true in 3.2?

I dont see why it wouldnt but then, is there any slow tanking weapon? I could find some slow 1H DPS weapon (most of them from pvp though) but none for tanking; did I miss some?

Anyway from your maths, Satorri, even with 2 fast weapon, the dps will be better than with a 2H, so it's not a big deal.

About DPS, what will be the best with 3.2: Slow/fast or Slow/slow? From what I could read, ToT use offhand weapon damage so a slow weapon will be better for our strikes, if I am not mistaken. But will it overvalue the advantage of a fast one?

That a lot of questions Thanks for any answers ^^

[Satorri]

It *should* be slow/slow will be the new preference, since it, like mutilate, is an instant weapon damage strike on the off-hand as well.

For tanking that means we're doubly sad with no slow tanking weapons, but like you said Fean, even a fast/fast combo will do more damage than a 2h on those strikes (*with equivalent level weapons).

[Edgewalker]

One handed PvP weapons are about as well itemized as you will get for tanking 1 handers.

[Satorri]

Mmmm, I'm sure you're right, for getting the best threat/survival balance. I hadn't thought about that. Pity it takes such an additional investment in getting an arena rating high enough to buy the ones that will be most competitive with Ulduar gear.

And, to boot, in 3.2 you won't be able to do it with just a 2s team.

[Edgewalker]

Even the 1850 rating ones are pretty much top of the line for tanking. Unless you can hit defense cap without resilience, you are forced to use fast weapons like Sorthalis or Shiver. I only need one defense weapon with the Resi Shoulder enchant, so I will probably be using a PvE DPS slow MH and Sorthalis OH.

[Pwnanapuddin]

I know for death knights, our runeforge abilities for 2% parry are seen as the main and only option for DWing. However recently I have been testing using Blade Ward on at least one of the weapons, and I am thinking about using it on both.

While only using it on my primary weapon I can keep it up about 30-40% of the time, granting the same bonus, as well as a chance to stack it at least 2x from what I have noticed. Each stack adds 200 parry rating, and the resulting damage from the ward on our next parry also stacks from 600-800 up to 1200-1600.

As of now, I am still somewhat under geared for how I would like this to look, DWing Titanguards instead of Titan(P)/Legacy of Thunder(OH). I do have the LoT already tho, just need the higher Def gear to make it happen.


Feel free to tear me apart if this is a dumb idea.

[Satorri]

Well, the question is (assuming you don't care about the price) whether Blade Ward offers a distinctly better buff. It's easiest to first look at the parry % it provides.

2% parry per weapon, non-diminishable, is as static as it gets.

200 parry rating, diminishable, is worth what, about 2.4% parry after returns? If it is up as you say, we'll average 35%, so it's functionally worth 0.84% on average, though as opposed to the 2% it is up for *slightly higher* amounts in short bursts.

The damage after parries may be a slight threat buff, but I think even with 100% uptime it wouldn't compare to Swordshattering for survival value. Just by the numbers. And the higher sustained parry amount may easily make up the threat from parry-counters with additional margins on RS damage (we have a thread going about that! Parry + DK = Win).

[Chamenas]

To go along with what Satorri is saying... I'm pretty sure that the runes from runeforges are supposed to be the best "enchants" out there for DeathKnights, whatever the role. If an enchant out there is beating them, I'm sure it is not intentional and once discovered it could easily be nerfed.

[Pwnanapuddin]

Thank you for the good thoughts and breakdowns. One of the major reasons I am wanting to test this is due to the fact that one sword with this buff did perform so well. And since I am unwilling to throw this into the frey in ulduar, most of my testing has been against the "Highlords Nemesis" in DK Home. Therefore, I am never given a chance to parry an attack to wipe the buff while it is up at 1 or 2 stacks (I think 2 is the max).

Luckily cost to me to cover this is great, but my GL has the enchant and is giving me a substantial discount. So I will probably test this on a second weapon to see how it goes. Once I have my DEF pumped a little more to my liking, I will start using my sigil of deflection in conjunction. I really was not planning to unload this build until the point that the new DW talent comes out. I will admit I am a to the core, through and through frosty DK, and the new skill just gives me a reason to give DW a shot.

[NexsusTheFrostDeathKnight]

A bump.

Unfortunately thanks to a B.net account bug and WoW's forums full of elitists I haven't been able to find any new info on DW tanking in 3.2.

Has anyone been able to test it further if the new talent is able to compensate even if it doesn't affect rune strike? My reasoning is that with some careful talent placing there will be enough runic power for frost strike to compensate and as mentioned virulence (I think it's called >.>) will further it.

[Satorri]

It's far more than making up for the lost strike damage, your strikes will now do more damage than a 2h, unless they mess with the values somehow. Rune Strike isn't included in the effect for a reason. As a dual wielder you will actually be able to use RS's more often already, so that compensates somewhat for the slightly smaller size of each.

Make no mistake, there is no deficiency in dual wield damage or threat under this system, if anything it's going to be too good so as to threaten the 'hardcore' min/maxers who oppose the evils of dual wielding to tank while simultaneously HAVING to take the biggest damage/threat dealing setup they can. I can't wait to see where they fall on the outcome. Maybe it will result in Frost being unsuitable for tanking in their eyes, ha ha ha.

[Ollin]

The combat log is listing two seperate attacks if the first one connects, and a single miss (dodge, parry, etc) if the mainhand doesn't. Again, I had a small sample size with limited mod availability (and have been backlogged at the office enough to be here on a Saturday morning) so I haven't followed up on it yet. I'd assume the mechanics are similar to Mutilate, but due to the specific talent implementation it may not be. Is anyone familiar with assassination rogues?

-Splug

It sounds like it works in exactly the same manner as Stormstrike.

When you hit the strike it checks to see if the main hand, and only the main hand hits. The off hand strike is a 100% main hand proc that fires if and only if the main hand attack deals damage.

Edit:

I do have to wonder though, even without access to ToT, how much could an Unholy DW tank abuse the internal CD removal on Sent of Blood and the change to Unholy Blight to pump his TPS over the course of a long single-target fight?

Personally I don't think it would pan out, but it would be an entertaining experiment.

Reading your description this sounds like a typical blizz shortcut, although I can't fault them for it. It works with SS well enough.

[NexsusTheFrostDeathKnight]

I can't wait to see where they fall on the outcome. Maybe it will result in Frost being unsuitable for tanking in their eyes, ha ha ha.

This is my greatest fear the elitists claiming that even with the new system Dw tanking will fail, even now posts on the wow forums arebeing shot down by trolls all over the claims of rune strike alone, along with the pathetic 'parry gib' myth.

If it can do it's job though I'll definately be changing to DW tanking.

[Pwnanapuddin]

I gave it a run through on 10 Uld last on public not test.... so even without ToT, I was DW tanking effectively on both Thorim and Freya as frost. I can only see it getting better.

I also found our that blade ward stacks to 4 max now...... I had parry oozing out my ass.

[NexsusTheFrostDeathKnight]

I gave it a run through on 10 Uld last on public not test.... so even without ToT, I was DW tanking effectively on both Thorim and Freya as frost. I can only see it getting better.

I also found our that blade ward stacks to 4 max now...... I had parry oozing out my ass.

You must be in the greatest guild of all time for them to "allow" you to dw tank.

So 2 blade wards look like they can replace the runeforge enchants?

[Janana]

You must be in the greatest guild of all time for them to "allow" you to dw tank.

So 2 blade wards look like they can replace the runeforge enchants?

I was thinking about 1 swordbreaking and 1 bladeward, putting the bladeward in the off hand as a side spec to see if i liked it.

[lyd]

This is my greatest fear the elitists claiming that even with the new system Dw tanking will fail, even now posts on the wow forums arebeing shot down by trolls all over the claims of rune strike alone, along with the pathetic 'parry gib' myth.

the wow forums are probably the worst place to get information about this game. EJ is fine, tankspot is good, anywhere you can post numbers and have people give constructive feedback instead of simply say "TLDR."

the wow forums are good for hilarious bouts of trolling and that's about it, honestly. even legitimate questions are answered with "NUB LOL" and the like. really just a terrible place all around, but entertaining to peruse occasionally. sometimes i get sucked in by their jack@ssery, but i try my best to keep a safe distance.

[Satorri]

The funny thing is that 2h Frost isn't getting hurt by any means, and if anything it's getting a little buff gaining 2 talent points back from BotN. But if dual wielding does more damage people will start saying it's the "only legitimate way to play frost." It's foolish but it's popular rhetoric.

Dual wielding somehow losing out on Rune Strike is just clamor from people who don't understand the mechanics that well. It may or may not do better, but it won't be some grievous loss, that depends on avoidance and weapon choice. Maybe another bout of napkin math is in order.

[Emi]

From a personal PoV this doesnt change much if i choose to continue with my 2H when 3.2 hits. Things standing as they are my build would be : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft . BotN moving to 3pts now forces me to pick up Deathchill and 2/2 on MC which means i wouldnt actually "gain" anything from those "extra" 2 points.

Now if i go DW then Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is what i'd be going for. Again, apart from the DW talent pick ups/2H drops and no points in MC the tree is basically the same.