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Thread: 3.2 and DK DW'ing

  1. #21
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    The point isn't the mathematical possibility of it happening, it's that you are FORCED into a heavier expertise set to keep the chance low at virtually no gain.
    That was a wall of text for no reason :\

  2. #22
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    New 3.2 notes

    Scent of blood 10 second cooldown has been removed.

    This talent in a dw tank spec would add noticeable increased runic power generation now. More to think about.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    The point isn't the mathematical possibility of it happening, it's that you are FORCED into a heavier expertise set to keep the chance low at virtually no gain.
    That was a wall of text for no reason :\
    sorry, i wasn't trying to clobber you over the head. You are of course, correct that DW requires high expertise. Personally, i've found that alot of high-level tanking gear comes with expertise already, so it kind of takes care of itself. you did, however, make the point that even with high expertise, being below the cap has inherent danger. i was merely trying to show that once you surpass the soft cap, the danger becomes so increasingly low that it's not worth talking about.

    i'll see if i can get a WWS report up within the week so people can look it over. I think seeing real numbers will help give some coherency to all the anecdotal evidence and armchair theorycraft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mukluk View Post
    New 3.2 notes

    Scent of blood 10 second cooldown has been removed.

    This talent in a dw tank spec would add noticeable increased runic power generation now. More to think about.
    i saw this. i think they are going to have to combine threat of thassarian and nerves of cold steel into one talent, or at least make ToTh a 2-point talent instead of 3. i'm finding myself having to choose between 3 points in anticipation, 3 points in scent of blood, or 3 points in acclimation. higher dodge makes scent of blood more effective, but i would not want to lose the magic resistance afforded by acclimation.

    i hope it gets fleshed out on the PTR. scent of blood is now a great DW tanking talent, but without consolidating frost talents a little, it will be very difficult to incorporate it effectively into a frost-heavy DW build without losing some avoidance/magic mitigation.
    Last edited by lyd; 06-24-2009 at 08:43 AM.

  4. #24
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    Well, you don't NEED more expertise, and in a lot of fights you won't notice the difference for survival purposes.

    I'll try to be super brief with the math, but the point is that expertise goes further for dual wielding than a 2h.

    Let's say, using conservative estimates, that it breaks down like this:
    2 DK's, same gear, etc.

    DK A:
    2h with 3.5 sec swing time, 30% RS replacement (30% of normal swings are RS's), and 0% miss chance on auto-attacks

    DK B:
    2x 1h, Slow(2.5)/Fast(1.5), 40% RS replacement, and 16% miss chance on auto-attacks

    Both will have 50% avoidance, and we'll average the number of avoids at 15 per minute. For reality sake, since with an incoming attack speed of 2.0 the 2h tank will have 1.75 swings incoming per outgoing we'll say the 2h can make use of 8 of them (53%), while the dual wielder will actually get out 2 swings per incoming, so we'll give it the benefit of the doubt and say he gets to use only 13 of them (87%).

    DK A will throw 17 swings per minute, though 8 will be RS, so that's only 9 parriable swings per minute.

    DK B will throw 24+40 swings per minute, though 13 of them will be RS's, so that's 51 parriable swings per minute, factoring miss chance that drops to 43.

    If the boss has a 14% chance to parry, then DK A will get 1.26 parries per minute, while DK B will get 6.02 parries per minute. If the DK's each have enough to soft-cap (6.5%), the boss only has a 7.5% chance to parry. So, DK A will now average 0.675 parries per minute and DK B will have 3.23. The dual wielding DK sees several fewer swings, as opposed to the 2h'er who already has a very low count. Complicate that further with the fact that the parry only hastes the boss if they're in the first 60-80% of their swing, which means the random lining up required drops the probability further.

    What this doesn't account for, which many people miss, is that both DKs may be using parriable -strikes (though dual wielders will favor using non-strike moves more because they don't lose damage from using fast weapons with smaller damage ranges). Even if they both used the same strike based sequence, that would be a much larger proportion for the 2h DK. A rough idea, if the DK is using an average of 4 -strikes per rune set (say, BS/HS, ScS/OB/DS, and accounting for every other set applying diseases), that's 4 per 10 sec, or 24 per minute that are as parriable as auto-attacks.

    So factoring that in and adding to the values above:
    DK A has 9+24 parriable strikes, or 4.62 parries/min w/o Exp and 2.48 w/
    DK B has 43+24 parriable strikes, or 9.38 parries/min w/o Exp and 5.03 w/

    If we factor that 30% of those parries will have little recognizable hasting:
    DK A = 1.74 parries/min
    DK B = 3.52 parries/min

    And remember that half of those increased swings are going to be avoided anyway (actually increasing the number of RS's and therefore the % of RS conversion to non-parriable swings), and you start to see that the difference between the two, with the same set of gear/stats etc, is actually just 1-2 extra swings taken per minute.

    You are right, of course, that dual wielding increases your possible incoming damage when you are tanking *on bosses that can parry-haste*, but it misses the fundamental appreciation of just how small that actual value is. If you are die-hard, it's not worth the increase, that's fine, but there have long been people trying to sell others that it's a much bigger deal than it is.

    Damnit, that was a lot longer than I wanted. Oops.

    My issue with dual wielding tanking has long been that I can't find a good reason to do it or something that feels good for doing it that I can play up. Many people who do it, do it because they like the idea, or they just want to show that it can be done. I'm looking forward to the new talent since it will actually make dual wielding feel like its own thing again, like you're not just trading %'s on damage sources around.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  5. #25
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    You are right, of course, that dual wielding increases your possible incoming damage when you are tanking *on bosses that can parry-haste*, but it misses the fundamental appreciation of just how small that actual value is. If you are die-hard, it's not worth the increase, that's fine, but there have long been people trying to sell others that it's a much bigger deal than it is.
    This is really what it all comes down to. Using basic estimates you will see that DW tanking will offer more avoidance while 2H tanking will offer more health. Comparing what I consider to be the "best" raid accessible tanking weapons we have Worldcarver - Item - World of Warcraft and Sorthalis, Hammer of the Watchers - Item - World of Warcraft.

    Ignoring weapon damage you will recieve the following stats from either setup.
    Worldcarver - Item - World of Warcraft
    137 Strength
    136 Stamina
    2.13% Haste
    10.61 Expertise
    25 Defense
    2% Stamina

    2x Sorthalis, Hammer of the Watchers - Item - World of Warcraft
    80 Strength
    152 Stamina (With 12 stamina from gemming bonus)
    11.8 Defense
    5.46% Parry (After Rune of Swordbreaking - Spell - World of Warcraft)
    11.7 Expertise (After gemming 16 Expertise Rating in each)
    As a human I would actually recieve 14.7 Expertise, 4 more expertise than with Worldcarver.

    Factoring in Threat of Thassarian, DW looks more than viable, to me it actually looks preferred.
    Last edited by Inaara; 07-15-2009 at 02:56 PM.

    True Knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    If you are die-hard, it's not worth the increase, that's fine, but there have long been people trying to sell others that it's a much bigger deal than it is.

    Damnit, that was a lot longer than I wanted. Oops.

    My issue with dual wielding tanking has long been that I can't find a good reason to do it or something that feels good for doing it that I can play up. Many people who do it, do it because they like the idea, or they just want to show that it can be done. I'm looking forward to the new talent since it will actually make dual wielding feel like its own thing again, like you're not just trading %'s on damage sources around.
    I guess that's my problem. I have been tanking this game too long and seen the most minute of possibilities happen too much to allow for the possibility without a substantial benefit. Hell, I had a world 4th Felmyst turn into a 7th from a parry gib on 4 of my attacks parried in a row, the chance of which should have been mathematically negligible.

    I also believe dual wield tanking will still be a lower base TPS Inara.

    And Lyd, from a brief browsing of new tanking gear, Expertise seems to be dwindling as a stat. :\

  7. #27
    I made my second spec DW tanking for the fun of it. Seeing how I never dps anyway... useless to keep my 2nd spec dps.

    Used to the big numbers blood provides it feels that DW is really weak damage and threat wise. Of course I only have a Broken Promise and a Red Sword but still, at least BP is slow so my specials hit bigger. I'm going to scare my guild and try it in U25 too but I am really afraid of the threat problems in advance...

    In the daily heroic (VH) dps was stealing mobs left right and middle. I really put out pathetic threat that might be because of the rotation I'm not yet used to plus my general inexperience with frost, but still compared to the solid threat I manage with most 2h setups this heroic was way below standards.
    Last edited by Milq; 06-25-2009 at 01:47 AM.

  8. #28
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    With a smart Frost spec in 3.2 I'd be stunned if Dual Wielding did less damage.

    The major problem before was that you lost 33% or so off your instant strike *if* you had a slow mainhand, more if you had a fast one. While you got larger white damage and could boost related mechanics, it didn't make up for that loss elsewhere with most specs/methods.

    Now, with the new double hit strikes, using Inaara's helpful numbers:
    If we have matching AP's at 4200 (for easy math)

    World Carver instant weapon damage = 1091
    Sorthalis instant weapon damage = 781

    Using Oblit as an example:
    Dmg = 80% weapon dmg + 467.2 x 12.5% per disease

    We'll just say both diseases up, and disregard other talents (since they'll scale both the same way on %'s).

    Pre-3.2:
    Worldcarver OB = 2010
    Sorthalis OB = 1638
    (18.5% less)

    With ToT:
    Worldcarver OB = 2010
    Sorthalis OB = 1638+819 = 2457
    (22.2% more, and that's not accounting for Nerves of Cold Steel increasing off-hand damage)

    It seems they're not trying to balance Frost's dual wield vs 2h, they're making Frost a dual wielding spec, not that you can't use 2h's but now Dual Wielding will have an edge. I'm really curious to see what that does to the prevelance of Frost tanking, how the community perception of dual wield tanking shifts.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  9. #29
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    whats the difference in hit rating from a 2H and DW?

  10. #30
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    With the nerfs to Blood's EH, the extra 3% avoidance and 2% decrease in damage that Frost offers is looking more attractive. Add in the DW factor and OHMAGAWD, secksi times..... I mean look at my avatar! Imagine those were two Sorthalis! And I'm not wearing T7.5 anymore!

    True Knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.
    Agg's tanking guide

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inaara View Post
    With the nerfs to Blood's EH, the extra 3% avoidance and 2% decrease in damage that Frost offers is looking more attractive. Add in the DW factor and OHMAGAWD, secksi times..... I mean look at my avatar! Imagine those were two Sorthalis! And I'm not wearing T7.5 anymore!
    Yea, I will definetly give DW frost a try because of the same reasons; plus, strangely I got some better 1H weapon waiting in my bank than my 2H weapon so it look like a sign ^^

  12. #32
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    I would be more apt to give frost tanking a try if cooldowns weren't such a vital part of end game tanking. Guile of Gorefiend / Unbreakable Armor just aren't up to the same level as a 30 second Vamp Blood / WoTN, especially when you factor in the new set bonuses and the increased CD on IBF to begin with.
    Still waiting on something more before I am impressed.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulia View Post
    The only reason "dps" weapons work with two-handers is because of SSG. When dual wielding, you no longer have SSG and thus lose 25 defense (not rating, 25 DEFENSE), thus it's imperative that you find weapons with defense rating, unless you are somehow 25 points above uncrittable, aka 565.

    I have some thoughts on two talents that could make dual-wield tanking more interesting, but I'm not a numbers person so I don't have the numbers balanced. If you're interested and can crunch numbers, send me a message.
    I have a DK who is an avoidance junkie and is at 597 def
    True Bonding Occurs when you wipe your raid and then your raid wipes you in return - Tarigar

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarigar View Post
    I have a DK who is an avoidance junkie and is at 597 def
    I can't think of a way to not have terrible other stats and make that happen

  15. #35
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    I could do it very easily with two defense trinkets, but defense is not the most effective way to get avoidance as a DK. Not bad, but no where near what I could do with 2 dodge/parry trinkets (then pop them both and laugh at 60% dodge+parry).
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  16. #36
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    A few quick notes after tinkering on the PTR last night when my character finally copied over (evidently, the premades which copy quickly don't... have... onehanders. You have four two handed weapons though!).

    * Both swings from Frost Strike crit on Killing Machine.
    * XT-002 sigil was nerfed slightly; 114 damage on frost strike, but it applies to both hands, and seemingly after the offhand penalty. Thus it's a minor nerf but overall similar.
    * The additional offhand strikes don't seem to be avoidable. I had a low sample size and limited mods, so I'm uncertain on that. It seems if the mainhand is avoided, the offhand does not fire at all, and if the mainhand connects, the offhand does as well.
    * Death Strike only returns health once, even if both hands hit (there go my plans for the strangest overpowered tanking spec ever...)
    * DW frost strike damage seems comparable on the PTR to its current 2h state on live, obliterate damage seems slightly higher.

    Unrelated side note: the Scent of Blood change is a tooltip correction, the internal cooldown was already removed on live. The tooltip is still wrong on the PTR; it returns 10 RP per swing, but the tooltip lists it as 5.

    -Splug

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    I would be more apt to give frost tanking a try if cooldowns weren't such a vital part of end game tanking. Guile of Gorefiend / Unbreakable Armor just aren't up to the same level as a 30 second Vamp Blood / WoTN, especially when you factor in the new set bonuses and the increased CD on IBF to begin with.
    Still waiting on something more before I am impressed.
    I agree than UA is still pretty weak; when you think about it, it's like having a shield block for 20 sec every 2min. With the improvement in shield block value, it will probably be even weaker than that.

    But, the blood tree, Vampiric blood included, work great with a high HP pool; I am not sure how it will work with our new HP (i.e. with less HP)

  18. #38
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    Thanks for the scouting Splug, that'll be useful info.

    One small thing though, is it registering each strike as two separate ones, or a single strike. I assumed that it would be a combined strike just taking in the damage as a composite of the two weapons (off-hand damage penalty applied), and thus only a single strike to be avoided/miss, proc effects, etc.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Thanks for the scouting Splug, that'll be useful info.

    One small thing though, is it registering each strike as two separate ones, or a single strike. I assumed that it would be a combined strike just taking in the damage as a composite of the two weapons (off-hand damage penalty applied), and thus only a single strike to be avoided/miss, proc effects, etc.
    The combat log is listing two seperate attacks if the first one connects, and a single miss (dodge, parry, etc) if the mainhand doesn't. Again, I had a small sample size with limited mod availability (and have been backlogged at the office enough to be here on a Saturday morning) so I haven't followed up on it yet. I'd assume the mechanics are similar to Mutilate, but due to the specific talent implementation it may not be. Is anyone familiar with assassination rogues?

    -Splug

  20. #40
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    I am actually, my rogue has been Assassination for a couple years, ha ha.

    I figured Mutilate would be a rough way to code it. Muti for a rogue is a single move, and like you described, it's an all hit or not, but it is two separate portions of the hit.

    ToT is a talent that changes multiple strikes. I assumed it would simply change the code of the strikes listed to composite its damage from main hand and offhand weapon damages, since like you mentioned, two hits on something like Death Strike would add a bit of complexity for programming to make sure the healing only triggers on one of the two hits. But, if that's how Blizz did it, it's good to know. That does mean that you won't see hit scales like a 2h DK, you'd just have twice as many and smaller.

    I keep forgetting to set up my Frost off-spec to play with it, I've been having fun with premades of my classes that are still leveling in the 40s, of flash forwards on my under-geared alts to see what I can do with them in t8.5.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

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