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Thread: 3.2 and DK DW'ing

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    DW tanking is already very possible, it just pulls lower TPS at a higher cost with a more strict gear dependency.
    No, it isnt.

    Look at Satorri's post (#24). Double the parrys than when using a single weapon. Tanks get one shot as it is with just one parry landing at the same time as a melee swing and magic damange. I'm not willing to play chicken with the RNG like that.

    If DW was more dps then 2h tanking and you could get near the expertise hard cap then sure.

  2. #82
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    slow/slow for tanking. as far as i can tell, dual BP's is still the optimal tanking configuration for DW. off-hand fast weapons won't kill you, but a mh fast weapon considerably reduces the effectiveness of your weapon damage-based abilities. Right now I off-hand a red sword of courage for no other reason than i have yet to get an opportunity to replace it >.<

    No, it isnt.

    Look at Satorri's post (#24). Double the parrys than when using a single weapon. Tanks get one shot as it is with just one parry landing at the same time as a melee swing and magic damange. I'm not willing to play chicken with the RNG like that.

    If DW was more dps then 2h tanking and you could get near the expertise hard cap then sure.
    When the math behind DW tanking was first being fleshed out on these forums, I believe it was shown that warriors with a fast tanking weapon generate more parry-haste opportunities off a lv 83 boss than a frost dk DW'ing slow/slow. This is partly because 3 of the attacks in their rotation are either spells or not parryable (IT, HB, FS). I believe Satorri was actually the one who did the theorycraft. It follows, therefore, that if DW'ing is not a valid tanking style based on the number of parry-haste opportunities they generate, then the entire warrior class, ipso facto, is not valid for tanking either, given that they generate even more. you also can't use block as an excuse, since using DK mitigations on a cycle generally serves the same purpose. Better, actually, given the current state of block, and the proposed nerfs to DK's.

    since we all know warriors who are successfully tanking in 25-man raids right now, I think we can, once more, put this to rest. this is yet another example of how badly the parry-haste mechanic is exagerrated in terms of understanding its effect on DK tank survivability.
    Last edited by lyd; 07-20-2009 at 11:59 AM.

  3. #83
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    Junkilo, you need to read the other 200 or so posts on this. Dual wielding is quite doable, it is not that big an added vulnerability, and in fact at the expertise soft cap (which most tanks aim for anyway) you won't notice much difference in incoming damage or pacing.

    You can get to the expertise hard cap, but it's neither necessary, nor really worth it.

    It's not that bad Lyd, if you have reasonably high level items, we run out of slow tanking weapons with Naxx, so it may be worth using fast weapons even for threat if you want to get nice tanking values out of the weapons as well.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Junkilo, you need to read the other 200 or so posts on this. Dual wielding is quite doable, it is not that big an added vulnerability, and in fact at the expertise soft cap (which most tanks aim for anyway) you won't notice much difference in incoming damage or pacing..
    Point taken. However you assume that the DK tank is DW'ing broken promise and the war tank has a fast 1.6 speed one-hander. You need to go apples for apples for these comparisons. I don't know of a single parse that item level for item level can match DK 2h dps either. If there is please point me to it. Perhaps DK dps is different for tanking and it makes DW dps better?

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by junkilo View Post
    Point taken. However you assume that the DK tank is DW'ing broken promise and the war tank has a fast 1.6 speed one-hander. You need to go apples for apples for these comparisons. I don't know of a single parse that item level for item level can match DK 2h dps either. If there is please point me to it. Perhaps DK dps is different for tanking and it makes DW dps better?
    Read the post before answering maybe?

    First, you may not have noticed but we are talking about DWing with the next patch (and the change to frost DW). So parse will be hard to find (not many people raid on the PTR, even less post there parses).
    Second, Satorri showed some maths proving that even with 2 fast weapon (worst scenario since 2 slow should be the best, but the more possible scenario since slow tanking weapon doesnt exist) the DPS/threat of DW was superior than with a 2H (with the 3.2 change, of course).

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by junkilo View Post
    Point taken. However you assume that the DK tank is DW'ing broken promise and the war tank has a fast 1.6 speed one-hander. You need to go apples for apples for these comparisons. I don't know of a single parse that item level for item level can match DK 2h dps either. If there is please point me to it. Perhaps DK dps is different for tanking and it makes DW dps better?
    I think I can find a few weapons that can out DPS a 2-H weapon

    Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft

    A comparison of Weapons from Naxx25 and Ulduar25.

    For Naxx25:
    2-H Weapon:
    NAME: Inevitable Defeat
    DPS: 203.7

    1-H Weapon:
    NAME: Last Laugh
    DPS: 171.6

    NAME: Broken Promise
    DPS: 156.6

    TOTAL DPS: 171.6 + 156.6 *.65 (talented) = 273.39 dps

    In Naxx, the white damage generated is 33% greater with 2 1-H Weapons, then a 2-H weapon for tanking weapons. We can even increase this by DWing 2 Last Laughs, instead of mixing up the weapons.

    And, if I remember correctly, strike damage is all standardized to a specific weapon speed (3.6s, I do believe), so Frost Strike and Obliterate's damage is not affected by the swing speed of the weapon, but the overall DPS.

  7. #87
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    It all gets a bit sticky in the live patch, a hard balance.

    This thread is dedicated to the rise of dual wielding in 3.2. There is no good reason then that a dual wield frost tank can't tear it up as good or better than any other setup.

    I am not a dual wield tank myself (I've played with it, it works, it's not my style). I come out as an advocate in the community because of the raging nay-sayers who come to the forums to blast the very idea and anyone who entertains it.

    It is viable.
    It can be done with the same gear set as any other DK tank.
    It can be improved on by adjusting your talents and moves to match its strengths/weaknesses.
    In 3.2 Frost Dual Wielding gets a MASSIVE prop up.

    And as a side note: theorycrafting, simulations, and napkin math do not prove anything on the practical application of dual wield tanking. You can use any of them to prove how awful or how functional it can be, but that has little bearing since the only true test is doing it. If you want, we have an assortment of past and present dual wield tanks who can tell you they're doing just fine tanking current content. What's worst is the people who don't back their arguments with even made-up out of game math, they just have heard it can't be done without zomgparrygibs and they feel the need to come here and spout their superior understanding.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by VerticalEvent View Post
    I think I can find a few weapons that can out DPS a 2-H weapon....
    You have some flaws in the data here.

    1. You are comparing a 226 and a 213 weapon (for DW) to a 213 weapon. Which really isn't fair. At the end, you suggest comparing DW 226x2 to the 213 weapon.
    2. You don't factor in miss. You are going to miss 19% more with DW.
    3. The attacks are normalized. But, that normalization depends on the weapon being a two-hander or a one hander.
    Normalization - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

    Yes, math shows the damage to be higher with DW then it is with a two-hander. It's not as drastic as your post is showing.

  9. #89
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    Nitpick:

    *Miss 19% more on auto-attacks

    Also, of course, the picture is a lot more complicated because you have to factor all the damage components, AND more importantly method of delivery. A dual wielder spec'd and playing like a 2h DK will not get the best results the style is capable of.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Dosvi View Post
    You have some flaws in the data here.

    1. You are comparing a 226 and a 213 weapon (for DW) to a 213 weapon. Which really isn't fair. At the end, you suggest comparing DW 226x2 to the 213 weapon.
    2. You don't factor in miss. You are going to miss 19% more with DW.
    3. The attacks are normalized. But, that normalization depends on the weapon being a two-hander or a one hander.
    Normalization - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

    Yes, math shows the damage to be higher with DW then it is with a two-hander. It's not as drastic as your post is showing.
    1. Well, I could take Betrayer of Humanity, the best 2-H weapon in Naxx25, which has a DPS of 222.9 and the two 1-H weapons still beat it by 51 dps, and one of them is iLevel 213 (Broken Promise). I was comparing them based on where they dropped to and less on iLevel. Two Last Laughs would give me a dps of 283.14. Also, remember that Betrayer of Humanity lacks the tanking stats that the Inevitable Defeat has.

    2. I think you should re-phrase that to being you have an increase of 19% chance to miss. As well, talented for dual wielding, that increase of 19% goes to 16% (+3% chance to hit with single handed weapons, for both weapons, when talented). As well, that only counts for pure white damage, while the yellow strike damage is based purely on if the main handed weapon lands or not, from what I can gather from the PTR and the new talent. For those of us using a +Defense trinket, Dual Wielding 1-H weapons will free up a trinket slot (if we go with tanking weapons) and let use a +Hit or +Expertise trinket, to compensate.

    3. Thank you for the link. So, in order for the standardized damage of a 2-H weapon to do more then a 1-H weapon, the 1-h Weapon needs to do about 27% more dps then the 2-H weapon.

    There's also the idea of it being easier in getting 1-H tanking weapons over the 2-H weapons, where almost every melee dps is rolling on it with the tank, where as a 1-H tanking weapons quickly go to offspec after two or three runs.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanorr View Post
    Read the post before answering maybe?

    First, you may not have noticed but we are talking about DWing with the next patch (and the change to frost DW). So parse will be hard to find (not many people raid on the PTR, even less post there parses).
    gotcha.

  12. #92
    There's another thing that my post was missing - attack power.

    Since attack power gets applied to both weapons, and I can easily have about 3000 ap (without buffs). Dual wielding, that's like me have 3000 ap x 1.65 = 4950 ap, or an increase of 353 dps when dual wielding, compared to 214 dps I'd have with a single 2-H weapon, or an increase of 139 dps.

  13. #93
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    A message to all naysayers regarding DW tanking:
    I've been DW tanking since I first stepped into Naxxramas in February. Meanwhile, I've successfully tanked everything up to and including General Vezax in Ulduar. All I can say is: Yes, the generated threat is lower while DW tanking. No, this doesn't mean, that you can't tank the bosses. Threat has been a non-issue throughout WotLK (anyone remember the Shattered Halls pulls in BC?) and DW tanking today simply means that you shouldn't go afk while tanking.

    Still, I'm looking forward to patch 3.2.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Torn View Post
    A message to all naysayers regarding DW tanking:
    I've been DW tanking since I first stepped into Naxxramas in February. Meanwhile, I've successfully tanked everything up to and including General Vezax in Ulduar. All I can say is: Yes, the generated threat is lower while DW tanking. No, this doesn't mean, that you can't tank the bosses. Threat has been a non-issue throughout WotLK (anyone remember the Shattered Halls pulls in BC?) and DW tanking today simply means that you shouldn't go afk while tanking.

    Still, I'm looking forward to patch 3.2.

    My respects to you sir! *salute* it's rare to find an honest man, let alone a DW tank :P grats on batting off any of the nay sayers, I have to ask though; how?
    how in the sense that, how does your guild let you dw tank? Most from what I see are wanna be elitists, and is your survival as DW ever thrown into question?

  15. #95
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    I too also DW tank; been doing it since I got Broken promise and Red sword of courage, then was able to upgrade to last laugh and now I DW titanguards. I push 4.5k to 5k tps and I can spike well over 10k if "the stars align" (and a tricks). My spec is very odd in that it, for now, is a hybrid along all three tree, but it works. Come patch I did not see a jump in my threat yet; but this could have been to the fact I dont have the frost rotation yet.

    But all in all to get to a point, I think the expertise hard cap will be MORE important come patch because now we cant rely on frost strike not to miss and now all our strikes have an extra chance to be parried. We no have to worry about our off hands; which is why I dont believe I saw a tps jump yet. I am going to try gemming for expertise and stam and see if that makes up the difference; I will try to post some numbers if I can get around to it!

    Great discussions here always an enjoy to read and please comment about the OH and how we now have to worry about it being parried on all our strikes.

  16. #96
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    My respects to you sir! *salute* it's rare to find an honest man, let alone a DW tank :P grats on batting off any of the nay sayers, I have to ask though; how?
    how in the sense that, how does your guild let you dw tank? Most from what I see are wanna be elitists, and is your survival as DW ever thrown into question?
    you get your guild to let you DW tank by knowing why the math works and running with people who aren't idiots. anyone who heals a properly-geared dw tank sees that there is little difference in effective incoming damage. I raid in pugs regularly and no one has ever questioned my playstyle. Probably because they see that i'm loaded up with epics and they assume that i must know what i'm doing if i've made it this far.

    That being said, I have been questioned before. We have a raiding alliance for 25-mans, and the conversation went something like this:

    Q:"how do you account for the massive amount of parry-hasted attacks from DW'ing?"

    A:"with the removal of crushing blows, parry-gibs were basically removed from the game. parry-hasted attacks only account for a small amount of incoming damage. and by gearing for expertise, you essentially eliminate the gap between 2h and DW that parry-haste creates."

    Q: "aren't you gearing for expertise at the expense of other stats?"

    A: "no, because you're question assumes that expertise is a bad stat to gear for in the first place. Expertise increases both threat and mitigation from decreased parry-haste chance up to the soft cap, which benefits any tank regardless of class. once you hit the soft cap, parry-haste accounts for so little incoming damage that it becomes irrelevant. not to mention warriors generate more parry-haste opportunities than a DW tank, on average. so saying a DW tank is too vulnerable to parry haste is also saying a prot warrior is too vulnerable to parry haste."

    Q: "ah, i see."


    I think the expertise hard cap will be MORE important come patch because now we cant rely on frost strike not to miss and now all our strikes have an extra chance to be parried.
    i was under the impression that ToT procs worked like enhancement shaman Stormstrikes? if the mainhand hits, the damage is dealt automatically as a function of off-hand damage, but is not literally a "strike." is this not the case? did i completely misunderstand the mechanics of stormstrike?

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyd View Post
    i was under the impression that ToT procs worked like enhancement shaman Stormstrikes? if the mainhand hits, the damage is dealt automatically as a function of off-hand damage, but is not literally a "strike." is this not the case? did i completely misunderstand the mechanics of stormstrike?
    From my brief testing on the PTR, you are correct: there's one roll to determine whether the attack connects. Only a single dodge/parry/miss will be recorded on failure, and two successful swings are logged on hit. I never got a hit/miss combination.

    As for the dual wield survivability question, I gain just over 2% avoidance from using a pair of XT hammers instead of Voldrethar. It actually reduces the throughput damage taken; the real loss I see is from the lower strength values on a pair of tanking weapons relative to two-handed weapons, which cuts into non-weapon based strikes as well. If the threat is workable, the damage intake should actually drop.

    -Splug

  18. #98
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    great job splug. It's interesting to hear that you experienced it that way. the added avoidance from DW at the expense of threat actually *decreases* total damage taken.

    just shows further how small the amount of damage that parry-haste from DW causes actually is, so much that when combined with the higher avoidance that tends to accompany DW'ing, it actually makes you more survivable than a 2h, not less.

    lol, i'd love to see some WWS reports comparing your results. the purists aren't going to like this one...

  19. #99
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    Hrm, I suppose I could throw some hammers on for Freya tonight, but the fight has a lot of movement and I do occasionally get nipped in the back (or caught by a silence so I can't keep blade barrier/cooldowns up). Vezax would be a better target but I'm leery about threat demands; it gets close even going full bore with the 2h.

    Algalon would actually be the best test case since threat's totally irrelevant after the initial 30 seconds or so, but we don't normally record WMO's from 10-man and I'm dps for that fight on 25.

    -Splug

  20. #100
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    Last week's raid (2h tanking) - Damage taken for Vezax

    This week's raid (dual wielding) - Damage taken for Vezax

    Results are exactly as expected, though perhaps more extreme: drastic drop in threat output, drastic drop in damage intake. Damage income per second dropped from 3,593 to 2,559. Spec and equipment were exactly the same, with the exception of swapping Worldcarver for a pair of Sorthalis, Hammer of the Watchers. However, I believe my bone shield uptime was drastically better tonight, both due to longer sustainance after casting and a poor refresh rate the week before (5 casts tonight vs 2 last week). There was certainly some operator error involved, and that will need to be addressed - looking directly at the hit intake count should accomidate that, as well as absorb shields.

    Looking directly at the incoming swings, Vezax connected with 92 hits over 9:05 while dual wielding (avg 5.924 sec between hits, or 0.168807 hits per second), and 91 over 8:26 while 2h tanking (avg 5.5604 sec between hits, or 0.179842 hits per second). Ironically, a major contributing factor may have been the faster mainhand swing - with more rune strikes fired, Shadow of Death (sigil proc) had a higher uptime (88 rune strikes vs 65 - only two more total activations, but significantly more refreshes result in 64% uptime vs 55%). There was also one additional activation of my avoidance trinkets tonight relative to last night (resulting in 17% uptime vs 16% uptime - possibly not a major factor since the fight lasted longer as well).

    Overall, the net change in damage increase seems to largely be due to the bone shield uptime (41% tonight... which seems extremely high), and the way that interacts with power word: shield consuming a disproportionately high amount of damage. However, there IS a small reduction in hits intaken per second as well, and a net gain to throughput avoidance due to sigil proc uptime. I apologize for the small sample size, but we one-shot everything tonight and only had three bosses left before we ran out of things to tank. I hope these are still useful.

    -Splug

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