Thread: 3.2 and DK DW'ing

1. Heh, it doesn't *force* you to take those, but your choices for those 3 points does gain you something. Deathchill is a wonderful exemplar of what can be a good value or no value at all depending on how much and when you use it.

It could also make life easier on the folks who pick up Imp Icy Talons for their team.

Certainly none of this is a penalty, I like having more options that feel like nice options.

2. Emi
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Well, what i meant to say is that i see no real "value" in seeing a talent having its point cost reduced but that "forces" me to pick others below it that i normally wouldn't(like Deathchill) just to access the higher layer talents.

So in effect, from a personal PoV, im "gaining" "nothing"

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Originally Posted by Satorri
Dual wielding somehow losing out on Rune Strike is just clamor from people who don't understand the mechanics that well. It may or may not do better, but it won't be some grievous loss, that depends on avoidance and weapon choice. Maybe another bout of napkin math is in order.
I find this to be very interesting. You have no math to support anything you just said. You make the assumption that it is just "clamor from people who don't understand the mechanics." So, here is the supporting math. This is using two desired tanking weapons of the same iLevel.

-Rune Strike:
-Strike the target for 150% weapon damage plus [150 * AP * 10 / 10000]
-Based on 3050 AP

Broken Promise:
274 - 509 Damage
RS: 731.5 - 966.5

Inevitable defeat:
554 - 831 Damage
RS: 1011.5-1288.5

BP / ID (rune strike damage ratio)
.723 - .75
You are losing 25% off a single RS hit.
-------------------------------------------
To compensate, you would need (.75 * x = 1) 4 rune strikes from the one hander to 3 rune strikes from the two hander. That would give you the same RS damage. The assumptions that a one hander weapon will get more SoB procs, as well as more RS hits is correct. The math becomes very complex and it becomes much easier to use simulations and make the computer perform the operations.

With Inevitable Defeat (weapon 1) versus Broken Promise (weapon 2), using 3050Ap, 44% avoidance, 6% miss, 50000s simulation, rank 3 SoB for the following-
---------------------------------------------------------------
Runic power gain/expenditure from your rotation (the following 3 simulations):
0,20,20,10,10:0,20,20,10,15
===================================
Boss Swing Time: 1s

Procs: 22544
Weapon 1 RS hits: 12690
Weapon 2 RS hits: 14968
Weapon 1 RS dps: 420.6735
Weapon 2 RS dps: 361.4772
Weapon2 / weapon1 ratio: 0.8592820798077369
Weapon 1 rp starved misses: 0
Weapon 2 rp starved misses: 87
--------------------------------------
Boss Swing Timer: 2s

Procs: 11340
Weapon 1 RS hits: 9212
Weapon 2 RS hits: 10175
Weapon 1 RS dps: 305.3778
Weapon 2 RS dps: 245.72625
Weapon2 / weapon1 ratio: 0.8046631091061629
Weapon 1 rp starved misses: 0
Weapon 2 rp starved misses: 0
----------------------------------
Boss Swing Timer: 3s

Procs: 7423
Weapon 1 RS hits: 7036
Weapon 2 RS hits: 7423
Weapon 1 RS dps: 233.2434
Weapon 2 RS dps: 179.26545
Weapon2 / weapon1 ratio: 0.768576731431629
Weapon 1 rp starved misses: 0
Weapon 2 rp starved misses: 0
================================
RP gains / expenditures (this one includes a single frost strike at the end of the rotation).
0,20,20,10,10,-33:0,20,20,10,15,-32
================================
Boss Swing (1s)

Procs: 22736
Weapon 1 RS hits: 10068
Weapon 2 RS hits: 11773
Weapon 1 RS dps: 333.7542
Weapon 2 RS dps: 284.31795
Weapon2 / weapon1 ratio: 0.8518782684981941
Weapon 1 rp starved misses: 3082
Weapon 2 rp starved misses: 4193
---------------------------------------
Boss Swing (2s)
Procs: 11297
Weapon 1 RS hits: 8651
Weapon 2 RS hits: 9548
Weapon 1 RS dps: 286.78065
Weapon 2 RS dps: 230.5842
Weapon2 / weapon1 ratio: 0.8040437874731088
Weapon 1 rp starved misses: 782
Weapon 2 rp starved misses: 1128
------------------------------------
Boss Swing (3s)

Procs: 7491
Weapon 1 RS hits: 6975
Weapon 2 RS hits: 7375
Weapon 1 RS dps: 231.22125
Weapon 2 RS dps: 178.10625
Weapon2 / weapon1 ratio: 0.7702849543456755
Weapon 1 rp starved misses: 189
Weapon 2 rp starved misses: 330
=================================

On a ~2s boss swing timer, you lose 20% of your rune strike threat. If RS is 50% of your threat, you lose 10% of your threat. The amount of RS damage per fight varies from about 30% to 50%. Best case (duel-wield) scenario at 30%, 39% of your threat is from RS. This means you lose 7.8% of your threat.

Even at 60% dodge/parry, you lose 17% of RS damage with a 2s boss swing timer. It is significant. Believe it or not, some of us actually do math and don't just clamor.

Simulation source code (Java):
DWTank

4. Spare me the insulting tone, we can have a productive discussion without it. I have done math on it some time ago and didn't recall there being sweeping losses. Much of the clamor of which there is plenty, is from people who do not do the math as you do, they simply hear other people say, "we'll lose some threat" and broadcast it to the world, "ZOMG WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE HORRIBLY!!"

Thank you for the simulation, that is helpful. I'm unsure of a couple of elements of your simulation: Did you handle main-hand only using RS procs for dual wielding? (don't think we ever established if that was the case or if off-hands could apply it as well) As for % of your threat coming from RS that seems terribly high, my personal tanking with Frost has put it in the area of 15-30% of my total threat at most.

In the end, the real issue at hand is how the loss in RS balances out against the gains in many other things and the lack of change in a couple items. This is always the consideration in dual wielding, though now the balance is shifting.

RS will slide a bit, white swings and -strikes will jump up a bit, and non-weapon based attacks will remain the same. So here's where simulations don't help. Players will use their own methods and sequences with spells, as mitigated by latency, attention, and other human factors, and practical %'s will vary.

I'll steal some values from a previous set of calculations I did on the buffs to strike values (about 20% gain in FS, BS, OB, PS dmg rounding down to be conservative), along with a recent log for 2h frost tanking I did, and borrow your values for RS (25% loss in damage, 10% increase in RS's used, awful butchery of your values in reduction, forgive me). Here's how the breakdowns compare:

*disclaimor, this is probably pretty horrible for an actual breakdown, but the proportions shouldn't be horribly skewed for the sake of illustrating the trade-offs*

2h Live % breakdown on threat overall (Ulduar25, generalized for ease):
22% Howling Blast
19% Frost Strike
17% Rune Strike
15% Obliterate
12% swings
9% Frost Fever
4% Blood Strike
3% Blood Boil

So, if we lose 25% damage per RS, but get 10% more of them, that's a 17.5% loss in RS threat. HB, FF, and BB will remain the same, all being spell damage and not weapon-based. FS, OB, and BB will get a 20% damage/threat buff from ToT, and white swings should increase by roughly the same proportion.

The new breakdown would be:
21% Frost Strike
21% Howling Blast
17% Obliterate
13% Rune Strike
13% swings
8% Frost Fever
4% Blood Strike
3% Blood Boil

With a net gain of roughly 6.8% threat overall.

The loss is there, yes, but the severity isn't so grand. If your RS is in fact 50% of your total threat, then you will be losing almost 9% of your total threat from loss of RS threat. If that other 50% is a breakdown of say 15% HB, 30% OB+FS+swings+BS, and 5% FF, BB, etc, then you'd also be gaining 6% from your other strikes and you'd be netting a loss.

Out of curiosity, let's find the amount you'd have to lose on RS to cancel out the gains from ToT on strikes, taking 18% loss of RS threat and 20% gain of strike threat:

Code:
```
RS % of total threat     FS+OB+melee+BS % of total threat     Net Change
50%                         30%                      -3%
45%                         33%                      -1.5%
40%                         36%                      0%
35%                         39%                      +1.5%
30%                         42%                      +3%
25%                         45%                      +4.5%
20%                         48%                      +6%
15%                         51%                      +7.5%```
So drawing from all of our many assumptions, your simulations, and my relative breakdown on potential damage proportions, the break-even point would be with Rune Strike around 40% of your total damage.

Personally, I've only managed to get that high packing hardcore avoidance gear on Patchwerk Hateful tanking, but I can't anticipate how other DK's play. Purely in my thinking, instinctual, not observation-based, if you are getting that much threat from Rune Strike you are not doing what you could be with all of your active move rotations/priorities/sequences.

And in general, losing RS threat will not lose you threat overall, it will simply bring you even with a 2h Frostie, or slightly ahead mitigating your gains from ToT (as if designed that way >.> hmm).

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I am sorry if that seemed derogatory. I am just tired of seeing posts like that with no math. I should refrain from letting the negativity slip in. I really do want to know if it will be viable.

Originally Posted by Satorri
Did you handle main-hand only using RS procs for dual wielding? (don't think we ever established if that was the case or if off-hands could apply it as well)
As far as the tests I have seen, RS doesn't do anything to the offhand. So, I didn't factor it in. IF it does affect offhand damage, let me know. If it does cause an offhand proc it surpasses two handed threat by leaps and bounds.

I did remember that I needed to factor in the SoB use by the offhand. If I use duel 2.6 weapons (duel borken promise), it does increase the RS damage by about 2%. So, that should be factored in. I'll add a variable swing offhand later and see about making an actual rotation per damage simulator. That way I don't have so many hypotheticals floating out there.

As for % of your threat coming from RS that seems terribly high, my personal tanking with Frost has put it in the area of 15-30% of my total threat at most.
Personally, it varies on my spec and the encounter. My numbers may be high since I generally tank as blood. Which allows less rp dump time and involves less rp dumping then frost. On high threat encounters (like hodir and general, I have hit ~45% of my damage as RS). I also need to factor in healers that restore rp. Again it depends on your rotation, if you weave frost strikes in your rotation (this stops overflow), versus an RP dump, you will see an increase in rune strike damage.

Players will use their own methods and sequences with spells, as mitigated by latency, attention, and other human factors, and practical %'s will vary.
This is very true. Unfortunately, slower weapons are easier to use. There are fewer procs to worry about and you have a larger time frame to get off RS.

The rest of your post is thorough and I should push that way with my simulation. When you factored the damage increase from everything, did you include KM procs (or are they not affected by DW; wowwiki says KM is affected, but they could be wrong)? I'll see what I can do to make this a full threat simulation so I can figure out how close to that margin we really are. (Because we are very close to it, but certain things do affect it by a large margin. If you want an example, go tank multiple mobs and watch how often you RS. It skyrockets and would push DW up).

6. My stuff didn't account for KM procs. That's another messy problem. Logically I'd expect the effect to remain the same, since it will buff FS and HB (dual wielding shouldn't change the rate/sequence that you use the, though it will make FS bigger). I'm not 100% sure if dual wielding will improve on the turnover rate or not. In theory 2h's may not be getting as many procs as are possible per minute, I'm not sure how that works out.

And off-hand RS procs are something a few of us have been kicking around for months, but none of us can seem to figure out if RS procs with off-hand hits.

Ooooooo lightning bolt to the noggin! Later this evening, if I get a chance, I'll go out with a super crappy white weapon in my main hand and a nice high level off-hand and attack some stuff that I'll dodge/parry a lot. We'll see if I get any bigger RS's, that should give some indication.

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Unfortunately I have no highly detailed math, and in 'somewhat' new to the tanking genre, but here's a proposal (at least for heroics only, I rarely raid) does RS even matter? I've never had rune strike macro'd to any of my attack and alll enemies have stuck to me like glue with HB going off in their faces, although I must say one test realm patch I did bother to tie RS to all the abilitees and it was insanely fun throwing large crits in peoples faces along with HB, FS and OB.

That aside basically what I'm proposing is, does RS even matter 100%? after all you could spend the runic power on frost strike and hit with both weapons, also what must be some big obliterate numbers.

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Originally Posted by Dosvi
Personally, it varies on my spec and the encounter. My numbers may be high since I generally tank as blood. Which allows less rp dump time and involves less rp dumping then frost. On high threat encounters (like hodir and general, I have hit ~45% of my damage as RS). I also need to factor in healers that restore rp. Again it depends on your rotation, if you weave frost strikes in your rotation (this stops overflow), versus an RP dump, you will see an increase in rune strike damage.
RS's % is definitely not that high as a frost tank; I didnt tank as frost since some time so I cant find some stats, but as far as I remember, RS was behind both FS and OB in term of threat.

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Originally Posted by NexsusTheFrostDeathKnight
Unfortunately I have no highly detailed math, and in 'somewhat' new to the tanking genre, but here's a proposal (at least for heroics only, I rarely raid) does RS even matter?
In general, no it doesn't matter in heroics or even naxx. Threat is not an issue for most tanks unless your dps are extremely geared (full uld25 gear) or it is a gimmick fight. (Fights like Maly, Hodir, General. These fights push up dps and cause them to ride your threat). You could by all means tank lower level content while duel wielding. However, until it is proven to be superior, pugs will be less likely to take you.

RS's % is definitely not that high as a frost tank; I didnt tank as frost since some time so I cant find some stats, but as far as I remember, RS was behind both FS and OB in term of threat.
Yes, I know that RS will be lower for frost then it will be for blood. However, if you have the correct rotation, you can easily place it equal to FS and OB.

The above is more for end game tanking viability. That much of a threat loss is a non issue until you get into hardmodes in end game. In those scenarios, every bit of threat you get is significant. I'm trying to find out exactly what the change to threat will be.

10. Emi
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Frost Tank here (no HB Glyph). If its any help this is a log from last time i was at Vezax : World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis .

Due to 3/3 on SoB i find myself having enough RP to use whenever KM procs or just to dump thus you see FS figuring prominently. In any case the % use of FS, Ob and RS is within 3% as you can see.

11. As your gear improves, specifically your avoidance, RS becomes a major threat tool, and I do mean major.

In Naxx25, that's where my threat started sky rocketing, and it does more threat now (and less damage, /sigh miss my 10k+ crits). You can get away without it, but why bother? It is the most efficient threat you can get from RP regardless of spec or gear.

12. lyd
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It's pretty easy to macro all your attacks to use RS if it's available. I haven't done it personally because i'm quick at the keyboard and and my knowledge of macros is lacking, but it is wise to do so. I will get around to it eventually.

Also, it's a pretty important ability to use should you decide to DW. the math that tears down the parry-haste fallacy starts to falls apart if you're not actively replacing MH swings with RS at every opportunity.
Last edited by lyd; 07-16-2009 at 02:10 PM.

13. The macro method is quite simple, though I've seen some funny unnecessary additions.

#showtooltip spell name
/cast spell name
/cast Rune Strike

That's all that's required and the button will show whatever move you tacked it onto on mouseover, and when you hit it it will activate RS for your next swing if it's available.

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Originally Posted by Satorri
The macro method is quite simple, though I've seen some funny unnecessary additions.

#showtooltip spell name
/cast spell name
/cast !Rune Strike

That's all that's required and the button will show whatever move you tacked it onto on mouseover, and when you hit it it will activate RS for your next swing if it's available.
Fixed that for you.

/cast !Rune Strike

Using the exclamation point won't toggle rune strike on and off; /cast Rune Strike, will cause it to toggle. The exclamation point stops this.

15. Back before the 3.1 removal of BoS RP generaton, I was trying to crunch out the autoattack implications of DW vs 2h using rune strikes. I ended up throwing together a mini-spreadsheet based off this and concluded that dual wielding with infinite RP does outdamage 2h damage, particularly for fast-attacking bosses such as Patchwerk. I can't find the spreadsheet I put together, but I did find the post I put together with the probability formulas it was based off. Again, this was done during the infinite RP era of 3.0.8... so there's certainly going to be less RP efficiency, and SoB is not accounted for either. But I did find higher throughput when I threw it at the spreadsheet. EDIT: A few talents have changed evidently as well... Tundra Stalker is still being referenced as a 10% increase there.

---------------------

If a player's mainhand attack occurs at mh_speed and a boss attacks at boss_speed, the number of attacks taken per attack made is:
boss_speed / mh_speed
If combined parry/dodge-based avoidance is defined as avoid% (note - NOT including miss chance), then the probability of an arbitrary autoattack lighting up as a rune strike is:
Rune%_per_swing = 1 - (1 - avoid%)^(boss_speed/mh_speed)
The damage-per-swing* generated by autoattack and rune strike are (boss_glance% = .25, glance_penalty = .3):
mh_swing_damage = (mh_base + AP/14*mh_speed)*(1 + swing_crit% - boss_miss% - boss_dodge% - boss_parry% - boss_glance%*glance_penalty - boss_block%) + (mh_base + AP/14*mh_speed - boss_block_value)*boss_block%

oh_swing_damage = (oh_base + AP/14*oh_speed)*oh_penalty*(1 + swing_crit% - boss_miss% - boss_dodge% - boss_parry% - boss_glance%*glance_penalty - boss_block%) + [(oh_base + AP/14*oh_speed)*oh_penalty -boss_block_value]*boss_block%

rune_damage = [(mh_base + AP/14*mh_speed)*1.5 + .15*AP]*(1 + rs_crit% - boss_miss%)*rs_mod
*- All attacks are passing through the same value of target armor. Thus, for these calculations armor value has been ignored. %-based modifiers are also being ignored, as they should also be globally effective. The only exception would be talents such as tundra stalker and rage of rivendare, which can be accounted for in rs_mod. For threat values, multiply rs_mod by 1.5.

Combining that all into one equation and assuming runic power cost is a non-factor (only accurate in some cases), the total autoattack-plus-runestrike damage yielded by a tank who is firing rune strike as fast as it comes off cooldown should be as follows:
Rune_plus_swing_dps = [1 - (1 - avoid%)^(boss_speed/mh_speed)]*[(mh_base + AP/14*mh_speed)*1.5 + .15*AP]*(1 + rs_crit% - boss_miss%)*rs_mod/mh_speed + [(1 - avoid%)^(boss_speed/mh_speed)]*[(mh_base + AP/14*mh_speed)*(1 + swing_crit% - boss_miss% - boss_dodge% - boss_parry% - boss_glance%*glance_penalty - boss_block%) + (mh_base + AP/14*mh_speed - boss_block_value)*boss_block%]/mh_speed + {(oh_base + AP/14*oh_speed)*oh_penalty*(1 + swing_crit% - boss_miss% - boss_dodge% - boss_parry% - boss_glance%*glance_penalty - boss_block%) + [(oh_base + AP/14*oh_speed)*oh_penalty - boss_block_value]*boss_block%}/oh_speed
Breaking that down into a few special cases, to use hit/expertise stats instead of miss rates:

-- Known constants:
rs_miss% = .08 - melee_hit% // Don't forget possible +.03 from talents
(2h) swing_miss% = .08 - melee_hit%
(dw) swing_miss% = .27 - melee_hit% // Don't forget possible +.03 from talents
boss_dodge% = .065 - exp% // Until exp% > .065%, then it's zero...
boss_parry% = .14 - exp%
boss_block% = .065
boss_glance%*glance_penalty = .075

For dual wielding at expertise <= 26:
Rune_plus_swing_dps = [1 - (1 - avoid%)^(boss_speed/mh_speed)]*[(mh_base + AP/14*mh_speed)*1.5 + .15*AP]*(.92 + rs_crit% + melee_hit%)*rs_mod/mh_speed + [(1 - avoid%)^(boss_speed/mh_speed)]*[(mh_base + AP/14*mh_speed)*(.385 + swing_crit% + melee_hit% + 2*exp%) + .065*(mh_base + AP/14*mh_speed - boss_block_value)]/mh_speed + {(oh_base + AP/14*oh_speed)*oh_penalty*(.385 + swing_crit% + melee_hit% + 2*exp%) + .065*[(oh_base + AP/14*oh_speed)*oh_penalty - boss_block_value]}/oh_speed
For dual wielding at expertise >= 26:
Rune_plus_swing_dps = [1 - (1 - avoid%)^(boss_speed/mh_speed)]*[(mh_base + AP/14*mh_speed)*1.5 + .15*AP]*(.92 + rs_crit% + melee_hit%)*rs_mod/mh_speed + [(1 - avoid%)^(boss_speed/mh_speed)]*[(mh_base + AP/14*mh_speed)*(.45 + swing_crit% + melee_hit% + exp%) + .065*(mh_base + AP/14*mh_speed - boss_block_value)]/mh_speed + {(oh_base + AP/14*oh_speed)*oh_penalty*(.45 + swing_crit% + melee_hit% + exp%) + .065*[(oh_base + AP/14*oh_speed)*oh_penalty - boss_block_value]}/oh_speed
For two-handing at expertise <= 26:
Rune_plus_swing_dps = [1 - (1 - avoid%)^(boss_speed/mh_speed)]*[(mh_base + AP/14*mh_speed)*1.5 + .15*AP]*(.92 + rs_crit% + melee_hit%)*rs_mod/mh_speed + [(1 - avoid%)^(boss_speed/mh_speed)]*[(mh_base + AP/14*mh_speed)*(.575 + swing_crit% + melee_hit% + 2*exp%) + .065*(mh_base + AP/14*mh_speed - boss_block_value)]/mh_speed
For two-handing at expertise >= 26:
Rune_plus_swing_dps = [1 - (1 - avoid%)^(boss_speed/mh_speed)]*[(mh_base + AP/14*mh_speed)*1.5 + .15*AP]*(.92 + rs_crit% + melee_hit%)*rs_mod/mh_speed + [(1 - avoid%)^(boss_speed/mh_speed)]*[(mh_base + AP/14*mh_speed)*(.64 + swing_crit% + melee_hit% + exp%) + .065*(mh_base + AP/14*mh_speed - boss_block_value)]/mh_speed
Now, some of those values are determined by your talents, and what you're trying to calculate:
rs_mod = 1 (for damage dealt, without rage of rivendare or tundra stalker)
rs_mod = 1.1 (for damage dealt, with rage of rivendare or tundra stalker)
rs_mod = 1.5 (for pre-frost presence threat, without rage of rivendare or tundra stalker)
rs_mod = 1.65 (for pre-frost presence threat, with rage of rivendare or tundra stalker)
oh_penalty = .5 (without nerves of cold steel)
oh_penalty = .575 (with nerves of cold steel)

-Splug

16. Actually Dosvi, that's totally unnecessary, one of the confusions pieces I'm talking about. When the macro as I typed it is used (which I spam), it doesn't toggle it off at all.

That became a popular notion some time back, but it is a fallacy.

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Originally Posted by Satorri
Actually Dosvi, that's totally unnecessary, one of the confusions pieces I'm talking about. When the macro as I typed it is used (which I spam), it doesn't toggle it off at all.

That became a popular notion some time back, but it is a fallacy.
I stand corrected. I should have tested it myself. The confusion stems from the 2.3.2 patch notes. "/cast will toggle spells again unless the name is prefixed with an exclamation mark, e.g. /castsequence Steady Shot, !Auto Shot." But running my own tests, rune strike doesn't toggle.

18. =) very small thing that people won't notice at all in or out, and a single character is a small thing in a macro. But misinformation is nice to squelch when you can.

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lets not derail this with macros >.>.
so is the optimal slow/slow? or will I be able to start off with red swords of courage?

20. Optimal and available are going to be a tricky balance.

By the current mechanics, slow/slow is optimal, fast/fast still surpasses a 2h for total strike damage, and probably the choice you will run into is slow/slow both as dps weapons, or fast/fast tank weapons, if you have the luxury to pick (many will not for a long time), at the highest level of gear offering.

It seems a threat vs survival value really, and the dps of the weapon will usually outweigh the speed. Dual wielding Sorthalis and/or Shiver would be a great balance of threat and survival methinkst.

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