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Thread: 3.2 and DK DW'ing

  1. #1
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    3.2 and DK DW'ing

    from the patch notes for 3.2:

        • Threat of Thassarian: New 3-point talent. When dual-wielding, your Death Strikes, Obliterates, Plague Strikes, Blood Strikes and Frost Strikes have a 30/60/100% chance to also deal damage with your off-hand weapon. Off-hand strikes are roughly one half the effect of the original strike.

    as a dedicated DW'ing tank, i am in love with this change. what do you guys think? will anyone be trying out 1h dps specs again?

  2. #2
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    Short of algalon I've already tanked everything in uld 10 and 25, would love to try dw'ing myself but my concern is ToT doesn't affect rune strike and many fights like 3min hodir im grasping for threat as it is.

  3. #3
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    Mmmm, it does look like a fun talent, I wish it were a little more embracing of supporting the other trees, but I'll take what I can get.

    Mukluk, RS doesn't actually need it, per se. RS does benefit from the faster swing speed. In theory you'll be able to use a slightly higher % of your RS's, and that compensates some for the smaller value of each. It's hard to do the numbers on though, I've been trying for a while.

    (Small tip on Hodir that might help, my melee dps'ers are on strict orders that when they get the Storm Power buff they are to come hit me with it as well! As Blood that's no small buff, Frost would benefit nicely as well I'm sure, and Unholy would do better than nothing)
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  4. #4
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    I'm a bit worried about the ammount of talent points it takes to make DW viable. I hope they balanced the dual-weapon strikes to compensate for the loss of other valuable talents, but I guess we can only wait for PTR test results to start showing up.

  5. #5
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    Also (just thinking out loud here) wonder if dw tanking worked, if it would be better to dw dps style weapons or tank style (warrior/pal 1hander) weapons.

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    The only reason "dps" weapons work with two-handers is because of SSG. When dual wielding, you no longer have SSG and thus lose 25 defense (not rating, 25 DEFENSE), thus it's imperative that you find weapons with defense rating, unless you are somehow 25 points above uncrittable, aka 565.

    I have some thoughts on two talents that could make dual-wield tanking more interesting, but I'm not a numbers person so I don't have the numbers balanced. If you're interested and can crunch numbers, send me a message.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulia View Post
    The only reason "dps" weapons work with two-handers is because of SSG. When dual wielding, you no longer have SSG and thus lose 25 defense (not rating, 25 DEFENSE), thus it's imperative that you find weapons with defense rating, unless you are somehow 25 points above uncrittable, aka 565.
    I don't agree, I'm over 540 (uncrit) defense and i use the +4% parry rune, and my 2hander is the furious glad sword, no def on it, although when I got it I gave up some def gems and use the resilience. Not to say one way or the other on dps 1handers vs tank 1handers, just saying ssg isnt required. I think its more of a crutch until you get the gear to run without it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mukluk View Post
    I don't agree, I'm over 540 (uncrit) defense and i use the +4% parry rune, and my 2hander is the furious glad sword, no def on it, although when I got it I gave up some def gems and use the resilience. Not to say one way or the other on dps 1handers vs tank 1handers, just saying ssg isnt required. I think its more of a crutch until you get the gear to run without it.
    I'm in fairly decent gear and I'm still not 25 points over 540. In order to get there I would need to sacrifice hit, stamina and expertise. imo, it's not worth it to get dps weapons for that slight advantage when defense should be the most important stat until you hit 540. There's also no reason to sacrifice stamina, hit or expertise as a tank just to get weapons that deal slightly more dps for threat.

  9. #9
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    It is not hard to get the defense required from gear, SSG is just a handy alternative that lets you add stuff elsewhere instead of defense. It is not a make or break for dps weapons. That said I think one of the major values of dual wield tanking is that you can use tanking weapons. It gives you the chance to stack extra survival stats in.

    Dual wield tanking is possible, and this will make it far more workable than it has been in months, but I'd wager you still won't see any more than the people who do it already.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
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  10. #10
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    See, my thoughts were... I'd like to see some talents directed at tanking with two weapons. If we... took out less popular talents (I had two in mind, but PvPers would kill me) and freed up... 4 talent points we could add two 2-talent point talents.

    Weapon Block
    1/2
    When wielding two weapons you have a 5% chance, with additional chance to block dependent on your defense to block an incoming attack, the chance to block increases as your block value increases.
    2/2
    When wielding two weapons you have a 10% chance, with additional chance to block dependent on your defense to block an incoming attack, the chance to block increases as your block value increases.

    Improved Parry
    1/2
    When you are hit by an incoming melee attack, if you are wielding two weapons you receive a buff that increases your chance to parry by 3% for 12 seconds or until you successfully parry an incoming attack. This effect stacks up to 3 times.
    2/2
    When you are hit by an incoming melee attack, if you are wielding two weapons you receive a buff that increases your chance to parry by 6% for 12 seconds or until you successfully parry an incoming attack. This effect stacks up to 3 times.

    Help with numbers and wording would be appreciated as they currently stand as overpowered at the moment. What I hope to convey is the basic idea, some defensive talents centered around dual wielding that would make it an equivalent if not better option for frost tanks to two-handers, making sure to address the issues that DKs have while tanking.

  11. #11
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    DW tanking is already very possible, it just pulls lower TPS at a higher cost with a more strict gear dependency.
    If you are having trouble with 3 minute Hodir, go frost and make sure you get the first storm power.
    Singed makes all the difference.

    The problem I have Satorri is that theoretically you would have more RSes with DW from faster speed, but especially on slow hitting bosses, avoidance (even at 30/25) doesnt allow for as many as you might think.

  12. #12
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    Indeed, the numbers are hard to bear out, and there's something I never took the time to figure out which could make a big difference: if you use a slow main hand and fast offhand, do your offhand swings proc a hit based on main hand damage, or offhand damage. Obviously the two would vary the damage quite a bit.

    The effect of speed and number of incoming swings, along with your avoidance level, and the random nature of when you get avoids makes a world of difference. I, not unfrequently, avoid two swings in a row within the span of my weapon swing timer, so I know I miss RS's just for that. That's particularly the case when I'm popping my on-use avoidance trinkets.

    It still gets sticky of course because using a weapon that is twice as fast and hits half as hard still very well may not catch twice as many procs.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    if you use a slow main hand and fast offhand, do your offhand swings proc a hit based on main hand damage, or offhand damage. Obviously the two would vary the damage quite a bit.
    As i have no idea what procs you could be talking about as i have no idea about DKs I can only offer this little bit of info

    The top rogue dps spec at some points in BT was either a main hand fist or mace with an offhand sword with both mace and sword spec.

    This was because offhand sword hits proced main hand mace swings.

    If it is still like that i have no idea but its there for what its worth



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    DW tanking is already very possible, it just pulls lower TPS at a higher cost with a more strict gear dependency..
    That's the thing. Just because something "can" be done doesn't mean it is preferable or even reasonable. I won't argue that it can be done, but it's not worth what would be lost in order to switch over to it from two-hand. That's why I'm hoping that perhaps some other things might come into play which would make up for what is lost in the crossover. I'd love to DW tank, but right now I'd be sacrificing a lot of stats to do so.

  15. #15
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    That is somewhat helpful Darksend, though I knew that (for my rogue =D).

    The procs I'm speaking about are this:
    When a DK dodges/parries an incoming attack it makes Rune Strike available, a la Revenge for Warriors. It is an on next swing move that replaces your auto-attack with a 50% more damage, 50% more threat strike.

    As I write that I think I figured out most likely how it works. If it is truly next swing and not next 'main-hand' swing (since our swings don't proc it, incoming ones do), then that may be a good reason not to have a too-fast off-hand as it would more often eat the procs with smaller hits, maybe faster than we want. Like Edge said, it doesn't proc THAT often, so maybe just 2 2.5 sec swings is enough to get maximal effect out of RS procs next to a big slow 3.5.

    Now if we can just get Blizz to offer more nice slow 1-hand tank weapons! (And let DK's use fist weapons! I love the graphics on the ulduar ones)
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  16. #16
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    That's the thing. Just because something "can" be done doesn't mean it is preferable or even reasonable. I won't argue that it can be done, but it's not worth what would be lost in order to switch over to it from two-hand. That's why I'm hoping that perhaps some other things might come into play which would make up for what is lost in the crossover. I'd love to DW tank, but right now I'd be sacrificing a lot of stats to do so.
    it's not as bad as you think. generally, it works out so that you net a little less threat and a little more avoidance, just due to the way your gear tends to settle out. i have yet to be denied a spot in a raid due to any of my stats being found wanting compared to other tanks. also, the new DW talent in 3.2 is looking like it will bring DW threat in line with 2h, but that remains to be seen.

    i currently rock @ 550 defense w/ relic proc, 40k hp raid-buffed, ~46% self-buffed avoidance (counting +3% miss from talents), and 41 expertise (-10.25% to parry/dodge). i use +2% parry on both weapons. i sacrificed 1% dodge so i could grab rune tap (totally worth it). I haven't stepped in ulduar 25 yet, but i've been tanking ulduar 10 with no issues. last night i actually found myself much more survivable than the warrior tank who was running with 2k more hp. i have yet to see any evidence that my style choice has created a liability for my healers, or an untenable gap in performance between me and my 2h-wielding peers.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Now if we can just get Blizz to offer more nice slow 1-hand tank weapons! (And let DK's use fist weapons! I love the graphics on the ulduar ones)
    I rocked out Vulmir (the 2.6 speed 232 MH mace from Thorim 25) MH with a Sorthalis (1.6 speed 239 OH mace from XT Hard Mode 25) OH, both with Cinderglacier. Using one DPS weapon and one tank weapon OH is possible, but again it limits your gear choices for defense cap. I still believe that on a fast hitting boss, DW tanking will be the higher single target threat if glyhed for RS with the Tier Set bonus especially

    @ Lyd -
    Not capping expertise is still quite bad, parry chains even with -9 or 10% are significantly more plausible dual wielding. I think one of the larger problems with dual wielding right now is the lack of a good Runeforge for mitigation or avoidance on a one hander, 2% parry is nice, but 4% parry total doesn't have quite the same value or flexibility 25 Defense and 2% Stamina does.

  18. #18
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    @Edgewalker: the parry-chain issue has been math'd to death in other threads. suffice to say that it is sorely exagerrated, and at higher levels of expertise, a negligible mechanic, even when compared to 2h.

    the following comparison may seem silly, but bear with me: compared to a molecule, a grain of sand is enormous. however, compared to the rest of the world, both are insignificantly small. This is how i would describe the difference between 2h and DW in terms of parry-chains. as your expertise rises, the chance of a parry-chain becomes so insignificantly small that the gap between 2h and DW ceases to be a large concern.


    don't take this math at face value, since i'm horrible at math, but consider the following:

    wowwiki puts lv 83 boss parry chance at 14%. at -10.25%, that means that my attacks have a 3.75% chance to be parried. the chance of a boss parrying two of my attacks in a row is equal to (.0375*.0375)= .00140625 or .14%. so right now, there is a .14% that a boss will parry 2 of my attacks in a row. if we assumed an optimal set-up with 2 slow weapons, you'd have swing times of 2.50, or 20 swings a minute. Over the course of a 10-minute fight, i will swing 200 times with both weapons, so 400 times total. The chance of 2 parry-hasted attacks occurring consecutively is .14%, or 1/714. assuming an average fight lasts ten minutes, roughly once every other boss, i will experience 2 consecutive parry-hasted attacks. ok, good.

    Now let's consider the fact that i have @ 47% raid-buffed avoidance. so even if the unlikely case of 2 consecutive parry-hasted attacks occurs, there is a 47% chance that one or the other parry-hasted attack will be avoided entirely. this reduces the chance of actually suffering two consecutive parry-hasted attacks even further. so with 47% avoidance, there is a 53% chance that a parry-hasted attack will actually hit. given that there is a .14% chance that a boss will parry two of my attacks in a row, .14%*.53% = .0742%. so there is a .0742% chance that a boss will parry 2 of my attacks consecutively AND that both attacks will not be avoided. ok, great.

    but what about mitigation cooldowns? IBF is up 18 seconds at a time. unbreakable armor is up 20 seconds at a time. my trinkets last 15 seconds. assuming i use these cooldowns independent of each other, that means that 53 seconds out of every minute, i have some sort of additional mitigation present, or roughly 88% of the time. So there is roughly an 88% chance that, should the boss succeed in landing two consecutive parry-hasted attacks, that they will land during a time when i have additional mitigation.


    BUT WAIT, we forgot about runestrike. runestrike can't be parried, and takes the place of a main-hand white attack. I don't have any WWS parses, but even if we assume that only half of my main-hand weapon attacks become Runestrikes, i've cut the number of parry-haste opportunities by 25%. without even trying to run the numbers, you can see how the parry-haste mechanic becomes infinitessimally small at high levels of expertise. Now my math here isn't exactly PhD level, but once all the numbers are run, the chance of ACTUALLY experiencing 2 consecutive parry-hasted attacks from a boss at high levels of expertise is outrageously small, to the point of being, for practical purposes, a negligible concern.


    if this doesn't convince you, consider anecdotally the fact that there are currently DW tanks in Ulduar 25. I personally have tanked through all pre-ulduar content without any issues, and about half-way through ulduar 10. As far as i can tell, i have never died to a parry thrash mechanic. I know that's just me telling you my experience, but take it for what it's worth.

  19. #19
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    Which reminds me, Lyd, I haven't asked in a while and I'm sure your gear has gotten better since we last spoke about it. Can you look into some wws reports and figure out the proportion of regular melee swings to RS's you're getting (just the count of each will do, make sure you include the count of crits)? That info along with your avoidance would be helpful, I want to get some empirical data to roughly gauge the dual wielding use of RS procs. If you want to just PM me a WWS report from a good raid night, with info from which fights you tank I can do the busy work.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  20. #20
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    i'd be happy too. we should be in Ulduar-10 again this week, i'll try to remember to run the wws client this time ><

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