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Thread: 3.2 Dk Tank Huge nerf ?

  1. #101
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    They won't decide that, promise. They've made it abundantly clear that they want dual wielding to be a choice (for dps and tanking), but that if it comes down to an inability to balance the two, they'll make sure 2h's are always the better choice.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  2. #102
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    DK Tanking Nerf...

    Lets set a few things straight. I haven't read all the posts, I don't really have the time, so excuse me if these issues have been corrected earlier. This is not a loss of 4% stam bonus, its quite more than that.

    Frost Presence currently gives us 10% of our total health not stamina. Big difference, because every time you level up, you get both a stam increase and a health increase. So, if you strip all of the stamina (both from gear and stam that the character has without gear) from your character, you have a base health. This base health is currently part of the math used to determine how much we get from frost presence.

    Now Blizzard is restricting this to stamina and making it only a 6% increase. This is a bit of a bigger nerf than people realize. Especially for new 80s that want to start tanking. Now, it also depends on how you are geared. My tank is stam heavy, Jewelcrafting helps me with this. I'm going to feel this nerf, but not as much as those who aren't as stam heavy. I've got almost 33k hp in a mix of crafted, Naxx 10 and Naxx 25 gear. I currently can tank XT on 10 and am not sure what else I can do. I'm going to lose 3.5k, roughly. Sure, that doesn't seem like alot, but when you discount my lack of a shield, the armor reduction and the nerf to our CDs, its just alot at once. I have those moments where I will go from full hp to nearly nothing. Every tanking DK does. That 3.5k might be the only thing keeping me up. And I'm not talking about times the boss is hitting hard either, I mean just randomly. I've got 61% damage reduction from armor, 24% dodge and 16% parry with an extra 5% mit from that one blood talent whose name is escaping my memory atm. (Alexial on Detheroc if you want to look me up)

    I understand that this just means I'm gonna have to be more liberal with my CDs and to be honest I'll probably need more naxx 25 gear before I go back to Ulduar 10. Its going to be an adjustment and I'm not complaining, but I don't know who said it but this could single handledly make the best tank in the game currently, to the worst.

    As for those who say that we just need to practice to adjust to the changes, forget that there are times that all the practice in the world isn't going to help you. I mentioned tanking XT and I have to blow Icebound Fort. when he has his temper tantrum. As of now, its up almost everytime it happens, so I can survive. If I don't have it up, what then, cause I don't think Unbreakable Armor is going to save me in a dire situation?

    Sure, big guilds can go 'Well, our DKs aren't as good as they used to be, so we are going to use Pally's and Warriors instead." My little guild, which I run myself with my wife, has 2 tanks we normally use and sadly they are both death knights (Myself and Misacia). We have a pally tank (Lightman), but hes also our MT healer and can't really afford to let him tank as much as we'd like. So, these nerfs may put us between a rock and a hard place. I know DK tanks are OP, but I just think the adjustments should have been a bit more gradual. Too many changes at once can really hurt guilds that rely on a specific clase.

    I just think we have to face the reality our guild won't be seeing much ulduar play until we can come up with some other tanks. Then again, I'll have to see how these changes corelate in-game. I just wish they wouldn't do so much at once.

  3. #103
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    I think everyone should stop the sky is falling routine and wait for the PTR to spit some numbers at us. I hear great things about a patchwerk dummy that we can test our tanks on. Once we get some numbers that show that DKs aren't doing so well QQ like a hurricane and support your tears with parses proving your point. Right now this thread doesn't look much better than a class forum on the WoW site, and that's a real shame.

  4. #104
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    An important point Alex, but it's not AS big a deal as is illustrated in all the threads missing.

    Balancing elements:
    DK base health = 8k (8121 to be exact)

    Switching from % health to % stam does lose the bonus on base health, yes. Also, switching to stam means the buff multiplies with all our other % stam bonuses meaning each of them becomes a little stronger. This comes from talents (Vot3W) and buffs (Kings, Imp GotW).

    The net will be a very noticeable loss for all DK tanks, and the most severe loss for health stacking Blood tanks (I'll lose over 3k in my raid buffs).

    Practice isn't the issue, it's just learning to live with the new set of variables.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    <snip>
    Talent syngery is too good? Irony is that warrior Armor to the Teeth (AttT) now has the same effect of 1 AP per 36 armor... but at 3 talent points compared to the DK's 5 talent points. I consider that set up insulting given DK reliance on DPS to generate threat instead of controlled high-threat abilities.
    Seriously? Go compare talent trees for yourself. DKs have 3 point talent for 6% crit, +spell hit, toughness and anticipation in their first tier talent trees compared to wars having their two worst mitigation talents, 5point 5% crit and a 3 point AP talent in their first tier of talents.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexial View Post
    I've got almost 33k hp in a mix of crafted, Naxx 10 and Naxx 25 gear. I currently can tank XT on 10 and am not sure what else I can do. I'm going to lose 3.5k, roughly.
    So you'll be at 29.5K unbuffed after patch, you're thinking. You'll be able to tank Uld-10 fine. I was tanking XT just fine at *27K* unbuffed on my warrior when I started, with only 2 3 minute cooldowns, so I think you're overreacting, really.

    No, it's not ruining DKs, it's just making them deal with some of the same problems other classes do. You might have to depend on someone else (a healer, probably) to deliver a cooldown when you need it sometimes, instead of always doing it yourself. I mean, 33K unbuffed is not required for XT. If you can't tank XT with 29.5K unbuffed and a 2 min cooldown, then your healers have issues, imo. (We've had a DK tank him at 28K unbuffed just fine pre-patch.)
    Last edited by mavfin; 07-22-2009 at 01:19 PM.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by junkilo View Post
    Seriously? Go compare talent trees for yourself. DKs have 3 point talent for 6% crit, +spell hit, toughness and anticipation in their first tier talent trees compared to wars having their two worst mitigation talents, 5point 5% crit and a 3 point AP talent in their first tier of talents.
    Trying to line up two different classes and arguing the value of a single point at point A versus point B is always going to be inconsistent. There are talents within any given tree that are relatively more valuable or less valuable; comparing them across classes is going to be somewhat invalid. The Blizzard-stated goal is to have the total summation equal, not each individual building block that composes it. (Aside: under the same logic, I find the claims that the glyphs demanded to reduce shield wall / last stand cooldowns to be a warrior disadvantage are faulty. Everyone requires three glyphs to reach an 'ideal' state for their role; whether they're consumed for cooldowns, threat, or throughput mitigation is somewhat moot.)

    That said, I don't see a 3 point talent which grants 6% critical hit in the deathknight trees (I believe paladins have that one), and the spell-hit talent is subpar due to only influencing an extreme minority of abilities. Deflection is a first-tier warrior ability, comparable to anticipation. Even if point-to-point comparisons were relevant, you're stretching a bit to find the imbalance you're pointing at there.

    EDIT: As for my overall take on the situation, some of the deathknight numbers did have to come down. Furthermore, a 10% raw health increase causes problems with buff scaling (IE: works with flasks of stoneblood and commanding shout, something no other tanking class has access to), and thus should have been changed to stamina (which off the top causes a static ~1.5k health drop). I also believe these changes initially overshot the mark for frost and unholy, though blood may well be in a comparable state to other tanks due to death strike acting as a counterbalance for shield block. Since then, the parry/dodge re-evaluation has hit other tanks harder than death knights for avoidance, making the throughput scenario slightly more favorable. If anything, these changes highlight the lack of support for death strike in the frost/unholy trees, and the balance issues it creates within the death knight class rather than relative to other tanks. If having the same armor with no shield is unacceptable, then having the same armor with no reactive healing is unacceptable - and intrinsically caused by the tanking rotations commonly used in threat-constrained encounters. Whether that ammounts to anything or not, we shall see as the PTR progresses.

    -Splug
    Last edited by Splug; 07-22-2009 at 01:45 PM.

  8. #108
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    Wait, what talent gives us 6% crit in 3 talent points? I must've missed it.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  9. #109
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    I think that perhaps he was looking at Vicious Strikes and not reading very closely.
    Learn to science and stop theorycrapping in its tracks.

  10. #110
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    It's a class re-balance that was needed. Of course DK's will feel like they will be replaced once the door is open to other tank classes to perform at the same level.

    Id like to use Alexial's post as a prime example. Two DK tanks in Ulduar on XT-002. Lets face it XT-002 is one of the easiest most straight forward fights there is. If you believe your guild will fail if you have to depend more on your healers abillity then I have to question if you should be there at all. Good healers and DPS can make or break these encounters, and if, as you put it, your guild depends on their tank class being OP to succeed at these encounters, there is something fundamentally wrong. Practice really is key not just for you as the tank, but for your entire raid composition.

    It always irked me to see DK tanks in worse gear, with more HP and armour, tank things I would not have believed possible, so effortlessly, unless I had actually witnessed it. Its this trivialisation of encounters that is being addressed. Whilst this doesnt apply to every DK tank, instead of trying to do everything yourself, start being a team player. If that means a bit more dependance on your healers, so be it, we wont tell you that you can't do it.

    Jameak

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jameak View Post
    It always irked me to see DK tanks in worse gear, with more HP and armour
    but it's ok to have a similar geared DK have less armor and health and no block after the patch?

  12. #112
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    Well, let's be fair. My tanking team and I are all comparably geared, DK, Warrior, Protadin.

    Currently, I have the most health, highest armor, highest avoidance, and the best CDs. After the patch I'll have about the same health, still slightly more armor, still higher avoidance, and my CDs will be a little weaker, but still probably better. They'll also get slightly heavier blocks (which still becomes a small deal on a boss).

    I don't think we're getting over-nerfed, I also don't think the health nerf was strictly necessary, but I accept the deck I'm handed and deal with it.

    Hair pulling and teeth gnashing won't make it better, if you can demonstrate that DK's will be too weak after these small changes, and can make a compelling case to Blizz, they'd likely reconsider. It's a small change though and I suspect that ultimately you won't even notice the loss.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  13. #113
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    /agree with Satorri

  14. #114
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    Gotta agree with Satorri on this one. Everyone feels the sting of the nerf bat at some point and everyone lights up the forums with QQ. The PTR is where Blizz does live TESTS on ideas to tweak/nerf/balance classes. They've shown that they prefer hard data over player perception. Even the theorycrafting done here, while quite reasonable, all rests on assumptions.

    Break an assumption and your theory goes out the window.

    Blizz will keep working on stuff in the PTR and tweak it until it looks reasonable (i.e. NOT PERFECT) for release. Then we'll test THEIR assumptions in large scale day-to-day WoW. Expecting perfection is like expecting water from a stone.

  15. #115
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    My only beef is that I don't want to lose health, it's not a balance thing, my tank spec/playstyle harp on stacking health and Blizz is stealing a huge chunk back. Sad day indeed.

    There seems to be a feeling that 3.2 is coming sooner than later, I hadn't expected it before August, but it's starting to have the pre-patch feeling.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  16. #116
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    To be honest, my main concern is for my partner, not myself, who doesn't have the gear I do. Also my example with XT wasn't with my guild partner, it was in a pug (I actually succeed where a better geared warrior tank couldn't, which really isn't right, or I might just be a better tank). So, possibly it won't be a problem cause my guild's MT healer is a damn good holy pally with 2+ years experience. I think the tanks that are really gonna be hit hard by this is the newer 80s that end up forced to run pugs to get gear cause they aren't geared for encounters their guild is running. I remember how squishy I was in blues, even though I had way more health than other tanks in my gear.
    Last edited by Alexial; 07-23-2009 at 10:09 AM. Reason: Left out details

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia View Post
    I think that perhaps he was looking at Vicious Strikes and not reading very closely.
    yup my bad, thanks for correcting. I can't be the only non-DK tank having a hard time ignoring these DK Tanking QQ threads

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by junkilo View Post
    yup my bad, thanks for correcting. I can't be the only non-DK tank having a hard time ignoring these DK Tanking QQ threads
    Eh, there may be a few over-the-top posts somewhere in the thread, but there always are. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone though - I'm pretty sure I saw something about warrior damage relative to innate threat last week that started innocently and eventually included a few whining posts. Every class has representatives who will throw up a post for patch changes; some will be whines, some will be questions, and some will be gloating. In the end, the reaction is the same whether it's warriors, death knights, or Elvis impersonators. I don't think trying to single out the "DK tanking qq threads" as a unique or class-specific occurance is valid.

    As for the overall question of whether the 3.2 changes will result in a balance or disparity - that's a question that should come up, and this is a logical place for it.

    -Splug

  19. #119
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    OP

    As a DK tank wearing pre-25 man Naxx gear I'm able to solo Heroic Loken, Onyxia, UK, Nex, AN, ZG, Kara and maybe more that I'm not aware of. DK tanks will Still woop tanks of other classes in duels due to ridiculous self healing abilities and defensives.... So 3.2 "nerfs" the Death Knight tank's practical overpowered use but the impractical uses still remain. As far as I can tell, Death Strike will still heal me for 5k and I can still do it 3 times in a row. As far as I can tell, Rune Tap will still heal me for 7k and it's on a 30 second cooldown and as far as I can tell I will still juice out 18k from Death Pact. The uses for the OP abilities that are impractical are actually quite practical when it comes to helping guildies. Need a Kara run? Ok, I'll be there in a minute

    And when it comes down to Icebound Fortitude, who actually Needs to use that every minute besides a starting tank.... So you mean DK starting tanks will have troubles like every other class when they are starting to tank? o.O

    DK's will still be appealing.
    Last edited by BoltAction47; 07-23-2009 at 02:24 PM.

  20. #120
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    Im curious as to what some DKs mean when they say "we have no shield so we rely on cooldowns for mitigation". Do you even know what the shield does? I understand that you are concerned about being nerfed because it is never fun when it happens. Unfortunately it is required this time because frankly you are way ahead of some classes.

    Like some know, most bosses in Ulduar seem to become angry and dangerous around every 1min making them hit hard. This is why DKs are so good right now. Not only do you have the better healthpool but you also have the cooldown for most if not all those occasions. To name a few: Hodir, Thorim, XT002 and Vezax.

    I play a warrior (Yes my own choice) and even if I glyph and spend 2 talents into my Shield Wall I can only get it to 2 minutes. Why should you, w/o any effort have a 1 min cooldown which gives roughly the same mitigation? And no, removing 1500 damage every 5th swing from a 25k hitting boss does not cover it.

    All that being said I do agree that some things might feel alittle over the top. I would rather see them keep Frost Pres as it is 10% health and just completely remove VoTW so that all DK speccs have an even chance.

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