3.2 Dk Tank Huge nerf ?

[Satorri]

Presumably this should put us closer to the same incoming damage levels as other tanks, so the healers shouldn't notice much difference unless they were used to relying on you as a main tank in many high damage situations, oh wait, crap. >.>

It's not the end of the world, but it is a bump in the challenge of things for DK tanks and their healers, and, as many have pointed out, will be a shift from the hardcore 4% of the population forcing their tanks to reroll DK because it has this small edge.

[lyd]

That's also the design of blood, however. We're trading damage reduction abilities (Bone Shield, Unbreakable Armor, Dreadplate) in favor of hitpoints and methods to refill those hit points.

understood, and i agree that this is the intended design of blood tanking. however, in my example, i was frost-spec'd, and i was still able to self-heal myself through the damage the adds were putting out pretty much indefinitely, relying only on my mitigation cooldowns, death strike, and blood tap to keep me up. i also had a ghoul sacrifice in my back pocket.

my point is thus: this was a situation where other tanks may not have been able to survive without heals, but because i am a DK, i was able to self-heal through the encounter. This situational advantage is an example of where a hardcore raid leader would want a DK in his raid instead of another tanking class, so i do feel that our self-heal mechanics are OP in this regard. particularly when a non-blood dk tank can still self-heal through a moderate level of damage in a 10-man raid setting. I'm not sure if i could say the same for the 25-man encounter, so i willingly admit that this may be an extremely niche example. but i do think it bears consideration when we are basing the necessity of the nerfs on what other tanks are capable of, and what we're capable of.

[Shake]

Adding the hit points nerfs, unfortuantely, makes the default 'best tank' a druid for the hitpoint stacking they are still capable of at this time. I don't think that's what Blizzard wants, yet I fear they're not going to see that until after 3.2 is live and most guilds can raid with the changes. I've gotten the impression that PTR testing is more for players' insight, as the instability of the PTR server results in a poor playing environment for raid content.

You hit the nail on the head. DK's are freaking out before PTR even starts because PTR results are almost always different then what really happens in an actual raiding guild.
Remember all the testing done on the tank classes in Ulduar a while back on PTR...the result were the tank classes were overall even...warriors even were said to still be the best all around MT...and they were basing that decision off of T8/BIS gear. Now that more and more DK's have BIS/T8 gear, they say that DK's need another giant nerf. I really think this is where all the despair is coming from.
Of course all the other tank classes are rejoicing over this potential nerf bat, because it's one less class to compete with for MT'ing. To be fair & honestly bring DK's in line with the other classes, you need to either leave IBF alone & go through with the other changes, or make IBF a 2 min cooldown & leave the rest alone.
The PTR won’t change anything though I'm sure, and DK's will have to wait for another 2 months or so before Bliz decides to change everything about how the class is played all over again.
But hey, on the bright side, we'll never have to worry about the class becoming stale, we basically roll a whole new DK tank every nerf =D

[wazdaa]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10026

new talent builds as of now for the ppl who like to make builds ^^

[Milq]

Presumably this should put us closer to the same incoming damage levels as other tanks, so the healers shouldn't notice much difference unless they were used to relying on you as a main tank in many high damage situations, oh wait, crap. >.>

It's not the end of the world, but it is a bump in the challenge of things for DK tanks and their healers, and, as many have pointed out, will be a shift from the hardcore 4% of the population forcing their tanks to reroll DK because it has this small edge.

The real problem with this is that while we may have the same incoming damage (I expect bigger incoming damage actually) over the course of a fight, the distribution of this damage will be very different to that of the other tanking classes. We still have no form of mitigation, no more armor than other classes and no HP advantage to sponge spikes. Healer and DK tank alike will break sweat just looking at the wildly jumping HP bar until a druid turns up and tanks bosses without anyone getting a heart attack in the meantime.

[Vlad]

Expertise added to Vot3W..

[Milq]

3.2: Icebound fortitude cooldown has been increased from 1 min to 2 min.
Druid T9 Feral 4P Bonus (Class: Druid) -- Increases the damage reduction granted by Barkskin by 10% and increases the critical strike chance of Rip and Ferocious Bite by 5%.

Yeah, right...

[sillypuddy]

anyone got any builds for the new talent tree for DK tanking frost blood or unholy? and which tree would be better now? or all they all the same in terms of which is better?

[Shazlonium]

Hello everyone,
Big time fan of the site here. Most of the "good info" i get is from here.

Now I'm about as unhappy with the changes coming in from 3.2 as the next guy, but here's a thought. Now bear in mind that I'm no theorycrafter nor do i plan on being one.

I'm a Frost Tank, and I absolutely love it. But here's what i think might happen when and IF they do go with these changes.

We get less HP, Armor, Threat & a longer CD right?

In return we get:

Threat of Thassarian: New 3-point talent. When dual-wielding, your Death Strikes, Obliterates, Plague Strikes, Blood Strikes and Frost Strikes have a 30/60/100% chance to also deal damage with your off-hand weapon. Off-hand strikes are roughly one half the effect of the original strike.

Which is supported by:

Nerves of Cold Steel: Increases your chance to hit with one-handed melee weapons by 1/2/3% and increases the damage done by your off-hand weapon by 5/10/15%.

Also, Blood of the North becomes a 3 point talent, freeing up 2 points.

Now, combine those points previously mentioned along with 2x Slayer of the Lifeless and instead of using Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle, use Rune of Swordbreaking on each seem incredibly interesting.

As a little example:

Titansteel Destroyer = +124 Str, +105 Stam, +54 Hit
Stonskin = 25 Def + 2% Stam

VS.

Slayer of the Lifeless x2 = 50 Def, +50 Str, +114 Stam, +52 Dodge, +38 hit
Swordbreaking = 2% parry on each = 4% Parry

Remember that IBF scales with Def (if i remember correctly that is)

Would that be viable for tanking?

Please feel free to dissect my idea

[Milq]

@Shazlonium

Defense Rating (on swords) != Defense Skill (on rune enchant)

Plus you still need silly amounts of expertise elsewhere on your gear for DW to be a valid tanking setup.

[Feanorr]

Expertise added to Vot3W..

It already have some expertise

[Vlad]

I never noticed that, probably explains why I get so far over exp cap tanking.. wtb more hit.

[DwayneDibley]

The 3.2 changes aren't a 'huge nerf' but they are a significant one. Which has the intended effect of taking one of the best tanks to probably the worst. DK's will still tank all things fine, but its the lack of overall fairness in blizzards approach which annoys me.

I can understand why they would want to bring hp, armor and damage reduction in line with warriors and pallies, and I don't have a problem with that in isolation.

The problem I do have is the fact that they haven't looked at the wider picture.
In 3.2 all classes but DK's will have a demo shout like effect. Before the 3.2 changes they didn't really need, it, as their greater armor and hp made up for it, but now this has been equalised, they are left significantly behind.

Next up is blocking, warriors and pallies have this (although pallies implementation is far superior). Sure people will argue its only 3% reduction for warriors and 5% for pallies, and it isn't a big deal. But I get the distinct feeling if in the next patch Blizzard decided to remove the effect from both classes in order to equalise with deathknights, there would be an extreme outcry from such classes!

There are several other little things, such as blade barrier and inequality in talents and abilities i could mention, but i wont bother, for the sake of my keyboard


------


Ok, lets play a game of 4 tanks go into a.....

5man dungeon/heroic:
Paladins will excel, the mobs will hit fairly weakly, and a large proportin of their hits will be absorbed by shield block. AD will make them practically indestructable, if the healer happens to fall asleep.
Warriors and druids will do well, with demo shout/roar reducing incoming damage by 16%, and either high armor/hp or block to reduce incoming damage further.
DK's ... hmm ... no demo shout or equivalent (and unlikely that another class will provide it), no blocking, no high armour ... DK's will be at a considerable disadvantage to the others (i'd estimate 20% or more additional damage to the above classes)

Raid - Trash Tanking:
Paladins will again do very well, with a reduced margin from 5-mans. The moderate hits will be mitigated a reasonable amount by shield block, and the demo shout effect will help further (although it is likely another class would provide it anyway). AD will save the pally from any over-ambitious pulls ;-)
Druids will do very well, with high armor and hp, and will likely be providing demo roar for the other tanks.
Warriors will also likely be using their demo shout for the benefit of the raid, and be absorbing reasonable damage by blocking.
DK's will be relying on the debuffs provided by the other classes, and will be taking somewhat more damage than the other classes due to missing out on block mechanics or high armor. Bone shield (if specced for it) may be useful when precast on high damage pulls.

25 Man Raid Boss:
Druids will do very well due to their high HP and Armour, they will also have demo roar available if they happen to be tanking away from the rest of the raid.
Paladins will also be an excellent choice, their demo shout effect will reduce incoming damage considerably, and their blocking will provide a small amount of additional mitigation (5% perhaps). AD will be a real life-saver in these encounters.
Warriors will do well, again can demo shout to reduce incoming damage, and their blocking will help, but to a lesser extent than paladins.
DK's will again be at a disadvantage to the other classes, they will rely on others to apply demo shout/equivalent (which may not always be possible), and have no block or high armor to reduce incoming damage by a little. They will be able to heal(overheal) a bit with DeathStrike (perhaps at the expense of threat, unless blood specced). Their short cooldowns may be of use on some gimmick fights also. WotN may be useful if they are specced for it, but this will likely be at the expense of 3% miss chance and 2% dmg reduction.



It is also worth remembering that these changes will hit the weakest players hardest... It has been mentioned that classes are being balanced with full tier 8 and BiS gear, but what percentage of the player base has this?
A newly rolled DK going into his first instances/heroics, lacking tools which other tank classes have and taking much more damage as a consequence is hardly fair, or balanced, which is supposed to be the whole point of this in the first place.

[Vlad]

The problem I do have is the fact that they haven't looked at the wider picture.
In 3.2 all classes but DK's will have a demo shout like effect. Before the 3.2 changes they didn't really need, it, as their greater armor and hp made up for it, but now this has been equalised, they are left significantly behind.

Imp Icy Touch?, more like clap I guess but yeah no AP reduction on top.

[Esch]

Imp Icy Touch?, more like clap I guess but yeah no AP reduction on top.

All tanking classes have some variation of dehaste, though DKs have a very easily spread debuff via Pestilence. Other classes run into range/target limitations, but in a boss fight, everyone has the option to have the dehaste effect.

The Demo shout addition to paladins, IMO, is a fair buff bonus and something they've needed. However, I look at paladins as filling niches in high threat generation/AoE tanking. Not all boss fights favor those strengths, which results in a lot of complaints.

[slackhoid]

I think we will be just fine after 3.2 and these changes were mostly called for. In current form as Unholy tank tanking ulduar10 my healers tell me that me tanking Hodir or Steelbreaker tank healing is trivial as I have a CD for each and every of their high-hitting blow. I don't think this is a good thing. IBF CD goes up to 2 min, no big deal.

As for heath and armor nerf, well I don't think it will kill us or make other tanks preferred over us. Blood self-healing still scales on their HP and so do 3-disease DS heals as unholy (over 12-14k as self-heals in 2 GCD is big deal). With sensible CD rotation I can still have def CD up for most big blows from bosses; maybe I will need more situational awareness to know when to use a def CD instead of just using one just in case like I do now. As unholy I can spec to permapet to have 16-17k Death pact heal every 2 min and have rather short CD on the AotD too for addiotional panic button.

IIT + Pest is still a powerfull tool for big trash packs and something other classes do not have in such easy form. It is so easy to close eyes from what we have when we are about to lose something.

[DwayneDibley]

You are probably right, DK's will be fine for the current raid content.
New DK tanks will probably struggle more than other classes due to the lack of balance across the tanks there, when they start doing 5mans and heroics, and their healer is struggling considerably more than usual.

Blizzard are making the current raid content and hard modes easier and easier with every patch that hits, and a tank which is slightly weaker than the others is no big deal, for now.

Unfortunately, Tier 9 content will come out, and every raid will be pushed to use the tank with highest effective health and baseline damage reduction, else suffer considerable setbacks. This best tank won't be the DK, as they will likely be the worst, perhaps by a small margin, but the worst never the less.

[Satorri]

Point of order Milq, while it's smart to have more expertise and you get larger survival value from it, you do not need any more hit or expertise than a 2h to make dual wielding viable.

If you want to push them higher to play up dual wielding's strength (white swings), that's fine, and you can get more value from higher amounts of both hit and expertise, but need is often over-stated, particularly by people who trust the "theory-crafting" over actually doing it.

[Inaara]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10026

ZOMG DW TANKING! WE GOTS BUFFED! WTB 2 Sorthalis, Hammer of the Watchers - Item - World of Warcraft prease.

[Milq]

@Satorri: I don't believe in parry hast gibs much either. My concern was mainly about threat, especially with the currently active talents. Also, I simply don't have two 1h weapons that compare to my 2h to try... nevertheless I wouldn't be overly happy if Blizz decided DW tanking will be the way to go.