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Thread: 3.2 Dk Tank Huge nerf ?

  1. #61
    You guys have to remember that the changes aren't final. The PTR will be up for a very long time, and it'll be tuned. Few people have even tried out these changes yet.

    But personally, I find it unbelievale it's taken Blizzard up to the THIRD tier of content this expansion to fix DK tanks, it's long overdue. DKs aren't prefered these days because they are just "good", they're prefered these days because they're "so good that they're overpowered". Hopefully these changes will bring them to where they should've been in the first place, and that's at a point where guilds aren't actually ditching their MTs for DK alts.

    On the other hand, I also hope that after 3.2, guilds won't be ditching their MTs for some other overpowered tanking class either.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulia View Post
    These things should happen in steps, but Blizzard seems to like to over nerf before they rebuff again, which is ridiculous. In the mean time, a lot of us DKs are going to get more deaths, slower progression and likely be less favored tanks which will hurt us in the long run.
    Let's separate two things: Nerfs to DKs, and balancing tanks to be roughly equal to content (Blizzard's philosophy). From the perspective of DKs, all these nerfs flat out suck, as the reduce abilities and mitigation by a lot. At the same time, some encounters (Sarth, Vezax, Hodir, etc.) favor a cooldown-heavy defense, with IBF being an extremely power yet frequent ability. Overall, IBF (specifically) getting hit this hard isn't unfair - what's unfair is that other tanks have had deal with not having an amazing 1 min CD ability for this long.

    Aside, I'ld love to keep a 1 min IBF. I'm just honest to the balance of tanking that if other tanks are picking up a similar CD (1 min, ~40% reduction to all damage), something has to change. In this case, Blizzard chose to nerf IBF rather than completely redesign current/future content to consider tanks all having a 1 min CD ability.

    It's not like tanking is over, but to act like this won't hurt us or affect things down the road is also ridiculous. There's a reason that nerfing something at its onset is bad, and over-nerfing in response to being overpowered is just as bad. I like Blizzard and I wasn't bothered by previous changes, because they happened mostly one at a time. But suddenly Blizzard has decided to slam one huge bat, and I don't like where it might put us.
    I can agree with the hammer feeling, but I'm optimistic that PTR testing will back up the view that the nerfs were overkill. Of the lot, the first one I hope to see reverted/changed is Frost Presence, as it's the baseline ability all DK tanks require. IBF is toast (see above), VotW is possible for reversion... but I doubt it (FP has priority), and Toughness isn't vital compared to FP.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunes View Post
    My priest is lvl77.

    People always need a healer right?
    Not really.

    My Priest is lvl 80, Discipline (single spec'd), full epic, miles away from my prot warrior who ding'ed 80 just a while ago.

    Still, when I try to get my priest into a guild, they always ask me if I'm interested in spec'ing shadow, because "they have none in their Ulduar cores, and we have too much healers".

    I hate dual spec, if I want a DPS I'll roll one (maybe another Priest if I want it shadow). Yeah I'm not really into the RPG side of it but I think dual spec makes no sense. But that's off topic.

    So?! Well, I'm glad because I rolled a Priest when I wanted to heal with a Priest and I rolled a Warrior when I wanted to tank with a Warrior, despite most people, heck, everyone telling me that I should go Pally (The Ramones tank, you just go 1-2-3-4!!!!) or DK (frustrated DK tanks went DPS when I was tanking in Outlands just to give me some trouble... Death Grip sucks!).

    When you do what you want, you never QQ. You eat the nerfs and keep doing your thing.
    Last edited by Malatank; 06-19-2009 at 08:32 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomHuxley View Post
    It IS simple math, but you don't want to believe it. You aren't being nerfed into oblivion, you are being brought back into line with the other classes. Welcome.
    So let's assume that having same armor same health and same mitigation but no shield is fair; but you are forgeting something: physical and magic mitigation (from def stance/frost presence and talents). DK have the worst (10 % for both), war are at 10% physic and 16% magic, pal at 12 and 18%.
    It was compensated by our better armor and HP, it wont be anymore.

    Plus, I dont know for war, but Pal got a few other thing over DK: +5% healing for exemple.


    And still no word about the agro: DK have currently a lead on survivability, but for the agro this clearly go to Pal and by a huge margin.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulia View Post
    Think of it this way as well. Paladins get a shield and Divine Protection, which will be roughly equivalent to Icebound Fortitude after the "change". In addition, although Warriors do not seem to have a similar ability (I don't know them that well, I had to look through their talents on slightly) they do get 60% dam reduction every 5 minutes in addition to the fact that they have a shield combined with any other mitigation abilities they likely have.

    As has been noted, I have no problem being brought in line with other classes. And I'm STILL going to play and attempt to play as well as I can despite the change. I just find the Icebound Fortitude change excessive and unneeded, it may, in fact, be something that breaks many DK tanks and could easily be the reason many DKs fall in some battles. Having 50% damage reduction for 12 seconds every 1 minute is key when we lack a shield, and when our armor value continues to drop significantly with the last patch and this upcoming one.

    4%+ health lost, sucks, but it's fine and we can work around it. The same with most any of the other changes. The Frost Strike change sucks, but hey, it wasn't as if I was suffering in the threat area anyways, I imagine I will now just have to be a bit more careful there. I don't like the dual wield stuff, I don't think dual wielding is yet ready to be a more viable tanking spec than two-handers, but I'd love to be proven wrong, I'd love to dual wield tank. But, overall, the only change that really worries me is the cooldown to Icebound Fortitude. I'm really quite worried about where this leads and whether or not I can make up for it in other areas.
    I don't actually think that they are intending to make Dual Wielding a more powerful set up for tanking as compared to now, to me it looks like it could be a significant change to a DPS DK however. Though I haven't done any math on it yet, it could really bring up some of the DPS capabilities of a Death Knight. Largely I think it was a fix from having Dual Wield being the most powerful DPS spec, eliminating it's capability, and now bringing it back to a logical option.

    For threat purposes it could be useful, but I still doubt it will be as powerful as a 2hander Death Knight for tanking.

    I agree that the stamina can more or less be worked around. If you look at the rest of the changes to this patch, primarily the increases to JC gems, as well as new epic patterns, it could be more of a balancing change than anything.

    The Cooldown to IBF is indeed a nasty change, but despite it's uses, I think that that too can also be worked around depending on how the tank actually plays his cooldowns.

    You can still work in a very powerful cooldown cycle with it increased to 2 minutes, though it's not quite as powerful (for lack of a word that doesn't say... nowhere near as good) But it can still be worked with depending on your spec. I don't think Unholy Death Knights will recover quickly from this change. Blood and Frost shouldn't have a whole lot of trouble handling it.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanorr View Post
    So let's assume that having same armor same health and same mitigation but no shield is fair; but you are forgeting something: physical and magic mitigation (from def stance/frost presence and talents). DK have the worst (10 % for both), war are at 10% physic and 16% magic, pal at 12 and 18%.
    It was compensated by our better armor and HP, it wont be anymore.

    Plus, I dont know for war, but Pal got a few other thing over DK: +5% healing for exemple.


    And still no word about the agro: DK have currently a lead on survivability, but for the agro this clearly go to Pal and by a huge margin.
    Yes but DKs also Have anti Magic sheild on a 45 second cooldown to deal with large magical bursts which is generally where we care about how much we can reduce it by.

    Every tank class has a few things other classes don't trying to grab this and that and saying we have it and you don't doesn't bring much to the table, and as for the 5% healing I don't know what a tankadin would be able to give up to spec 5/5 into it, and I am almost certain it wouldn't be worth it considering how much overhealing is already done.

    Edit: Also threat is a non-issue for all but 2 fights, I will not deny that pallys are ahead of other tanks but no tank should be having issues with threat currently.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    But personally, I find it unbelievale it's taken Blizzard up to the THIRD tier of content this expansion to fix DK tanks, it's long overdue. DKs aren't prefered these days because they are just "good", they're prefered these days because they're "so good that they're overpowered". Hopefully these changes will bring them to where they should've been in the first place, and that's at a point where guilds aren't actually ditching their MTs for DK alts.

    On the other hand, I also hope that after 3.2, guilds won't be ditching their MTs for some other overpowered tanking class either.
    Blizz has been carefully cutting DKs all along the line. I've watched it from the beginning of the beta to now. They avoided as significant cuts as it would've taken to come straight here for fear of over-nerfing. Not to mention they've made many lateral/functionality changes to adjust dps and pvp values, not just tanking and those had some trickle down effect that had to be adjusted for. All the other classes had a 3-4 year head start on the design. I'm a little surprised at how critical of Blizzard some people are, seems a bit ignorant of the complexity of the game and its elements.

    Besides, DK's are not overpowered (and we were actually previously buffed because we were too vulnerable as tanks part of the time), we only have a slight edge, that edge is getting filed down pretty severely in this patch, though I'd like to see my health take slightly less severe of a hit, 7% is rough to say the least.

    The reality of course is that for the "hardcore" and people who want to min/max to be playing what they think is the best best possible scenario, they will always favor the class that is in the best favor, which is often the tank that has the best edge. Like currently, taking 1-2% less damage or having well-matched abilities to certain encounters that have a slightly higher effect than that. If that's enough for people to completely switch to another class, then they always will be class jumping when Blizz shifts the balance. Personally, I'm not stressing that, I love all my tanks. =)
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dtain View Post
    Yes but DKs also Have anti Magic sheild on a 45 second cooldown to deal with large magical bursts which is generally where we care about how much we can reduce it by.

    Every tank class has a few things other classes don't trying to grab this and that and saying we have it and you don't doesn't bring much to the table, and as for the 5% healing I don't know what a tankadin would be able to give up to spec 5/5 into it, and I am almost certain it wouldn't be worth it considering how much overhealing is already done.

    Edit: Also threat is a non-issue for all but 2 fights, I will not deny that pallys are ahead of other tanks but no tank should be having issues with threat currently.
    I agree with dtain here. I guess you would have to be a pally tank to realize that 5% healing bonus is measly and imho not so ideal use of talent points considering other options that would benefit the raid.

    First off: I agree that the DK nerfs are a lot to take in one go. But you have to realize "ITS PTR" not live. The debate about DKs having IBF on 1min CD to compensate for no blocking would seem valid from certain perspectives, but this is how i would see it from a paladin tank point of view.

    We get one, ONE, CD every 2 mins. If we want more we can (at least my options are)
    A)replace a stamina trinket with an on-use trinket;
    B)train JC and get the monarch crab (stamina/on-use dodge CD);
    C)glyph Hand of Salvation - reduces 20% damage if HoS is used on us, whose base ability is reduce threat over 10 secs (not a huge issue on easier fights, but not always something youd want to rely on especially in progression content)

    Now, I've lived with just using DP as my only CD while MTing our Naxx runs until I decided to train JC halfway through it. Sure people might admit Naxx was easy, but even so just living with 1 CD didnt make me reroll into another tank class (I tanked in BC also, and that was NO CD for palys, but the same, i lived with it)

    My point on this first part is, yes i know the nerfs are really bad for DK tanks, but its not final yet. Theres still time for the devs to wait and see how it goes. And whatever nerf you end up with, if you love DK tanking, you'll find a way (like DW DK tanking, common census is they're bad, but did that stop players from doing it anyway?)


    Now for the paly buffs. I'd say we do get some nice ones, too bad theyre in the other trees. But the biggest issue (from what ive seen in this thread) is the increase block value form items and the Ardent Defender change.

    For AD, i would think it is too powerful from what i understand word for word of the text. Automatic Guardian Spirit every 2 mins in one word, is WOW. The passive 30% dmg reduction to every hit that takes hp down below 35% is also impressive. There has been debate that it might work out 2 ways: 1)It will take 30% damage from the WHOLE damage. 2)It will only take 30% reduction from the rest of the damage you get at hitting 35%

    e.g.
    40k max hp 35% of which is 14k
    30k incoming damage
    if AD were to function like the first option, you would receive
    30% of 30k = 9000
    so
    30k - 9k = 21k damage

    if AD were to function like the second option, you would receive
    damage needed to hit 35% is 26k
    30k - 26k = 4k damage left over to mitigate at 35%
    4k x 30% = 1200 is the damage mitigated from 4k at AD activation
    all in all you will receive 26k + 2800= 28800 dmg total

    Case 1 = AD is too powerful, I would expect a nerf. Its almost a flat 15% EH increase
    Case 2 = AD lost its weakness from before (heavy damage would leapfrog AD not even activating it) and is more reasonable
    But like i said, its still in PTR, were not sure how its gonna work. Im just happy to see we get one Internal CD with the automatic GS in Ardent Defender now.

    As for the SBV changes? Im gonna be biased on this one and just say "SBV increase? Who cares?"
    Progression wise, NO ONE i know uses SBV items unless its the only one they have. My armory has me using SB Value/Rating on my Shoulders/Pants/Chest. My only reason? For shoulders, cause theyre from uldy and i like how they look. For chest, because my other plate chest doesnt have gem sockets. For legs, thats my only tanking leg item (unless i use the one i got from 5-man heroics uggh) SBV/R just sacrifices much more useful avoidance stats for raid/progression tanking.


    All in all, I've said it once, I'll say it again. ITS PTR. The devs are bound to mess up considering all the changes theyre gonna do, thats why we players must give constructive criticism to show them how the changes affect us. And yes, it does seem like DKs might be getting a bit too much, but if you like it enough, you'll find ways to deal with it. Now if blizz makes it that DK's cant tank at all, then I say someone better start hiring new game devs

  9. #69
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    5% more healing is anything but a paultry buff. 5% increased on all incoming heals?

    If you have only 2 healers responsible for healing you, each of them doing 2.0k hps, 5% is an increase of 200 hps more. A healer wouldn't scoff at that and neither should you. It's just not a buff to your personal mitigation which (in many scenarios like Blood DK self-healing) has left many tanks foolishly disregarding its value.

    The better their heals are, the less they need to heal you, the more efficient they become, the longer they can keep you alive, etc.

    I'll give you, in a scenario where healers don't have to work at all to keep you up (geared to over-geared in Naxx, say) then the value may be less significant, but in Ulduar, doing progression? I don't blink twice at this one.
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  10. #70
    The biggest issues with Divinity, is that it conflicts with already tight talent builds, and is extremely expensive (5 Talent points) for its effect.

    The current builds that we have as most effective are either a cool down enhanced build that goes into Holy (12/53/6) or a threat based/utility build that goes into Ret (0/53/18). Both builds are buffed in patch; with the change to Improved LoH for the Holy version and the change to Vindication for the Ret one.

    In those, the 53 points in Protection are extremely tight. It has at most 3 points that can be moved around as we see fit, and then only in the early tiers. The choices are effectively some mix of these:

    Divine Sacrifice
    Divine Guardian
    Improved Hammer of Justice
    Divinity

    And at most you are only getting 3 points of these (Usually a Divine Sacrifice/Divine Guardian combination; a Divine Sacrifice/Improved Hammer of Justice combination or a 3 point Divinity option).

    Personally, I pick the Sac/Hammer choice due to the utility of having a 20 second interrupt (Even on the GCD unlike other interrupts it is still handy for a lot of encounters including Ignis, Freya, Auriaya, Thorim, Mimiron, Iron Council, Razorscale, etc). Many paladins forsake Divinity because it’s not worth the sacrifice of other talents. What do you give up, a 3% damage to everything and an additional 3% damage to certain enemy types? Improved Lay on of Hands resulting in powerful physical mitigation tied to topping off the tank and providing some mana? Or the already tight Protection abilities?

    And then you are looking at the value. Over an evening of Ulduar, I received 16 million in heals; this talent, at five points would result in 800,000 healing. This would be impressive if I were not already receiving a generous overheal like most tanks. The issue is, that it’s a reactive talent instead of a proactive one. It doesn’t help you survive the big hit, it only makes topping you off afterwards slightly easier changing that Holy Light from 12k to 12,600.

    Finally, while it is a two part talent (Increasing both healing done any healing received) the first half of it is ignored by Prot Paladins. Holy and Ret offer much stronger Judgment of Light healing (Which is the only healing a Prot Paladin actually provides not counting LoH, which would very rarely benefit from the extra 5% healing both due to its cool down and that it would only be effective on another tank with more HP than the Paladin and the tank was low enough to benefit), and due to issues with Judgments and Judgments of the Just, Prot needs to make certain it’s judgment isn’t overwritten; as such most Protection Paladins judge Wisdom.

    So not only do you have to make sacrifices to actually get the talent, you aren’t able to benefit fully from it, and the actual result isn’t a make or break situation. The number of times where Divinity would have saved a raid is miniscule, compared to the control the other talents offer (Divine Sacrifce on Detonating Lashers/Tantrum; Hammer on Ignis Constructs/Snaplasher/Evokers; etc) and can also be circumvented in almost all circumstances by tighter play by your healers.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selyndia View Post
    The current builds that we have as most effective are either a cool down enhanced build that goes into Holy (12/53/6) or a threat based/utility build that goes into Ret (0/53/18).
    Because paladin have threat issue, right

    If you take it or not is your problem, the fact is that, if you want to, you got this for survival.

    If we (DK) were folowing your reasoning, all the blood healing talent should be passed to (for more utility/threat, threat that we need a lot more than pal); Rune tap, death strike, mark of blood, even the healing part of our blood cd are all reactive.
    Last edited by Feanorr; 06-22-2009 at 09:25 AM.

  12. #72
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    the only thing i find OP about DK's right now is their ability to self-heal like maniacs. Last night in Ulduar 10, one of our healers dropped on Deconstructor, and i was OT'ing the adds. granted the adds don't hit very hard, but i was able to tell the other healer to focus on the MT while i death-struck and blood-tapped my health back. with the help of my mitigation cooldowns i honestly think i could've kept it up all night. I was able to top myself off several times before the fight ended. i don't think a warrior or a paly tank could've kept that up without getting heals.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyd View Post
    the only thing i find OP about DK's right now is their ability to self-heal like maniacs.
    That's also the design of blood, however. We're trading damage reduction abilities (Bone Shield, Unbreakable Armor, Dreadplate) in favor of hitpoints and methods to refill those hit points.

    Overall, I like the variety of DK specs & playstyles. What I would like done is getting IBF to 2 minutes and having folks raiding with it to see how it affects things. Nothing else, just IBF nerfed. I wager it would significantly shake raiding guilds immediately & get folks away from 'Throw the DK at it' mentality in favor of 'Throw the best tank at it'.

    Adding the hit points nerfs, unfortuantely, makes the default 'best tank' a druid for the hitpoint stacking they are still capable of at this time. I don't think that's what Blizzard wants, yet I fear they're not going to see that until after 3.2 is live and most guilds can raid with the changes. I've gotten the impression that PTR testing is more for players' insight, as the instability of the PTR server results in a poor playing environment for raid content.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Haltira View Post
    So this totally uninformed hatred towards DK's gotta stop. it is really simple math folks Same health Same armor same avoidance but lack of block yeah i think DK's get it they are supposed to be a shitty tank and that you hate them for having taken your MT job from Ragnaros in MC

    Actually its uninformed snipes like this that need to stop, do you really think that I couldnt Re-roll a DK ROLFstomp content? That you are specially blessed to be a DK or something? Ridiculous, get over you self. LOL

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanorr View Post
    Because paladin have threat issue, right

    If you take it or not is your problem, the fact is that, if you want to, you got this for survival.

    If we (DK) were folowing your reasoning, all the blood healing talent should be passed to (for more utility/threat, threat that we need a lot more than pal); Rune tap, death strike, mark of blood, even the healing part of our blood cd are all reactive.
    selyndia is just commenting on the common consensus with most paly tanks that 5/5 divinity is just too much expensive use of talents considering the other options we have. taking those 5 talents out of 5/5 divinity can give us the following

    Divine Sacrifice and 2/2 Divine guardian = gives us a better shield (sacred shield) and helps with aoe damage (Divine Sac) *note healadin shield is better but that just gives us a reason to use our sacred shield on a healer

    reduce the CD on our other interrupt (Hammer of Justice)

    Reduce Hand of Protection CD

    Increase DPS by going 5/5 SoTP in holy, or other talents in ret. *note yes i would have to admit that currently I dont have tps problems but i still prefer ret talents so dps wouldnt have to worry about agro. As Tanks we should make it as easy as we can for dps to do their work. I consider giving them a large threat leeway for breathing room one of them.

    DIvinity in paper seems like a great talent choice, but in practice its not as much. I am not sure if you tank as a pally or not. If not, then id have to say you have to try it yourself to realize what it means. And if you are, then id say more power to you, I dont hold it against anyone picking divinity up, as long as they do the job of Tanking decently.

  16. #76
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    While in another thread I've expressed my displeasure at yet another nerf to the DK's, the more I think about this, the more I'm thinking it's not going be that big a deal; what would be a bigger deal would be nerfing the strength/avoidance benefit. Last night we're doing Patch on 25 man and the Raid Leader posted the DBM recount which listed the HS (never knew DBM could do that, then again I'm rarely the Raid Leader). The two warrior tanks went down pretty quick (charging into the slime (DOH) and healer issue more than anything) the recount on my Frost DK, all by it's lonesome, was along the lines of hit for 14k (IBF up, my grandmother hits harder lol); miss; 27k, dodge, miss, dodge, dodge, dodge, 27k, (no heals - one tank we surrender) miss, 27k, dead. I'm doing this from memory, but string of avoidances, all in a row, was fairly impressive. Maybe, just maybe, this nerf won't be so bad.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    I'm doing this from memory, but string of avoidances, all in a row, was fairly impressive. Maybe, just maybe, this nerf won't be so bad.
    RNG is Random. I've had my share of luck on fights, including Patch, but at the same time you can get nothing but 'hit, hit, hit'. Ultimately, it works both ways and you need to plan that you're going to get hit, else you get hammered. Note that magic damage is essentially unavoidable, so you need a cooldown or hitpoints to mitigate that damage reliably.

    Compared to most DKs generally have more avoidance, but we currently lack a shield mechanic as well. I'm fine without a shield so long as the armor/mitigation compensates, though that sounds like the druid paradigm for tanking.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    RNG is Random. I've had my share of luck on fights, including Patch, but at the same time you can get nothing but 'hit, hit, hit'. Ultimately, it works both ways and you need to plan that you're going to get hit, else you get hammered. Note that magic damage is essentially unavoidable, so you need a cooldown or hitpoints to mitigate that damage reliably.

    Compared to most DKs generally have more avoidance, but we currently lack a shield mechanic as well. I'm fine without a shield so long as the armor/mitigation compensates, though that sounds like the druid paradigm for tanking.
    Yeah, I guess I'm just trying to find some bright spot or convince myself it's not that bad. At least we still have our personal AMS on a 45 sec cool down - Lightening Nova...that does damage?

  19. #79
    A little maths on the health department:

    I have 34.341 hp now, that's 37.775 in FP.

    This comes from 2640 stamina, which after the VottW nerf will go down to 2565. (-650 hp)
    With the new FP I gain 154 stamina = 1540 hp compared to the 3434 hp pre-nerf. (-1864hp)

    All in all the predicted hp loss in my case will be 2514. That is 6.6% unbuffed, which increases by the fact that FP used to scale other buffs like warriors' shout.

    Even now I am getting hit like a truck and when RNG has a bad day they come in quick succession. Since it is proven that DKs have no avoidance advantage whatsoever I am terribly concerned how I will fare against bosses without even the slight armor (gone in 3.1) and hp (going in 3.2) bonus I had to cushion a streak of incoming hits.

    Already numbers report that DKs will take the most damage if similarly geared to other classes. There is also a salient point here: it matters how you take that damage. DK damage comes in chunks: we either avoid completely or get hit with full force. If 3.2 goes through we will be back to where we started from when with CDs up DKs were hit for laughable amounts but without them we took spikes that caused most healers to have a heart attack. Except we won't have the CDs either, just a lot higher chance to get gibbed by a streak of hits.

  20. #80
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    I don't know if I'd call losing 3k armour "slight", and I hate to tell ya but we're about to lose another 1-1.2k armour on top on that 7% health cushion we'll be losing.

    Reality is none of it's going to make a damn bit of difference to me, my healers however are going to feel pain.. it's a wonder there aren't more healers taking notice of this change.

    All of this assumes i'll get to tank anything after 3.2..

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