3.2 Dk Tank Huge nerf ?

[Chamenas]

Did you not see where block currently accounts for 1% of my physical mitigation against a medium-hitting Ulduar boss??? Even with a shield a warrior has less armor than an equally geared DK after the nerf. If the shields aren't letting us have better stats and block only accounts for around 1% physical mitigation (less on harder hitting bosses, more on lighter hitters) what does it matter? How do your self-heals not cover that by themselves?




How? Right now paladins are the worst represented tanks in hard mode encounters...and the only buff they are getting is a CD change (the block "buff" does little more for them than it does for warriors). IBF was just too good. It had longer up time and was available every minute. Now your CDs are pretty much in line with other tanks and so is your mitigation. You still have better anti-magic abilities unless a warrior has the T8 4 piece set bonus (in which case they're about the same).

If anything I'm concerned that DKs need a bit more armor to help with lower level content (heroics, early Naxx) where block might actually matter, but on any Ulduar boss I can't see how DKs are going to be at much of a disadvantage compared to other tanks in survivability, unless you're ignoring my numbers in the previous post and still imagining that block does something useful.

However, I'm wondering if your numbers truly speak for all Warriors and tanks that use shields out there. I see plenty of block value on gear and Warriors and Paladins eat it up. I never roll on it, of course, because I can't use it. However, Ulduar 25 is full of that sort of gear. The buff to SBV may not be a big change, but show me the math that says that shield block and mitigation from shield damage isn't useful, or is less useful than the effective armor that DKs will have after the nerf, maybe then I'll be a little less worried and a bit more optimistic about my survivability. My issue here isn't in being more powerful than other tanks, it is in the fact that we have lost much of what we had to compensate for not having a shield. Even if the shield block buff is marginal, having a shield does account for something significant. If it doesn't, then I would expect that Blizzard will do far more down the road to ensure that it does, and, when they do, where will that leave DKs?

Edit: Let me reiterate, I don't expect these changes to not go through. I do not think DK tanking is dead. However, I'm worried about how I am supposed to compensate for the loss of Icebound Fortitude uptime that I had. I really don't know where to compensate for that. I could gem for more avoidance, but then I'll lose more of my precious hp, of which I will lose a decent chunk after this change.

[TomHuxley]

Agree armor > blocking, but the thing that misses a lot of you lately is the fact that what 3.2 is about to give DK's is Similar health, Similar Armor to worse armor in some cases and no avoidance gain, that is bothersome since than you have basically created a warrior tank without block value and called it even

As I showed above, even if this were true (and I have yet to see the numbers, have you?) on any sort of hard hitting boss block gives you about 1% extra mitigation. So even if your worse case scenario is true, you would be 1% worse on physical mitigation, before self-heals, CDs, etc are compared. Not exactly the end of the world.

you need to get over your hatred towards DK's in general and actually see that if these changes go thru DK's are going to end up being worse than warriors have ever been in this expansion.

No, it looks like right now it's headed for parity. I have no problem saying DKs should get an extra percent or two of their armor back if the other stats are really identical in every way before block. I also don't believe it yet, but I expect lots of real numbers to come from the PTRs soon and we'll see then.

Think of them as the new warrior tank but since block is shitty we remove it for DKs totally and call it even and put all other tanking stats even. In that case you can not claim blocking isnt worth something.

It IS worth something: 0.5%-1.5% physical mitigation depending on the boss. How often do you think that will make or break you? And again, it it comes down to that being the only difference let me be the first to say Blizz should buff your armor by 1% or so.

So this totally uninformed hatred towards DK's gotta stop. it is really simple math folks

It IS simple math, but you don't want to believe it. You aren't being nerfed into oblivion, you are being brought back into line with the other classes. Welcome.

[Selyndia]

Block Value gear is generally garbage due to itemization, even with the proposed changes for the two classes for similar, but different reasons.

For Warriors, Block Value isn't particularly strong because they need to actually block attacks to make it effective. Thus they need to give up itemization that is better spent on Expertise, Hit, Dodge, Parry or Defense on Block Value and Block Rating instead. Even with a high block value, without the Rating to go with it, it isn't terribly useful except during Shield Block up time because of the low percentage of hits that actually benefit from it.

For Paladins, while they can get the benefit of 100% uptime on blocking, they also completely waste the itemization points of any Block Rating on gear, as at 102.4% it is completely dead itemization. Thus they are not only giving up Dodge/Parry/Hit/Defense on gear that is better, they are doing so for Block Value and a dead stat that does nothing.

I pick up block value gear as a toy more often than not, simply to do heroics or trash with. For an actual boss I'm tanking, all that block value gear gets shelved back into the bag for actual relevant boss tanking stats.

[Chamenas]

1) Not all DK tanks self-heal. Death Strike is nice, but it's not in the rotation when threat is concerned and the healing from it on bosses that deal out a lot of damage is about as significant as 1% mitigation, I'd be surprised to see a Death Strike on a non-blood DK that healed for more than 1-2k tops.

2) You act as if the shield doesn't also add to your avoidance. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding shields, but if I heard correctly, they don't just mitigate, they help avoid as well. The point is, having a shield is better than not having a shield, so bringing DKs "back in line" with other tanks by making their hp and their armor values the same as other tanks is NOT balanced, ESPECIALLY when you consider the coming change to Icebound Fortitude.

I have no problem with the lost hp or armor, if they simply left Icebound Fortitude alone. That they are changing it in addition to the other changes is what bothers me. Not all tanks are in T8 gear yet, we're still trying to get there. And until we do, we're struggling for every point of hp and avoidance we can get, we don't need this much change to come at us.

It makes no sense to "correct" so much at once, that's never, ever a good idea. ever. You always take it step by step.

[TomHuxley]

However, I'm wondering if your numbers truly speak for all Warriors and tanks that use shields out there.

Then you need to read up on warrior and pally gear guides. If you gear for block on a boss fight then the DK will end up having waaaaaay more avoidance. WAY. You can't stack avoidance and block at the same time. There's a term for a warrior who stacks block against a hard hitting boss:

Dead.

I see plenty of block value on gear and Warriors and Paladins eat it up. I never roll on it, of course, because I can't use it. However, Ulduar 25 is full of that sort of gear.

Of course we do; it's good gear for trash and for lower level content. Also fun to use for making big shield slams when questing. Since our DPS is lower it's the only fun we get there. But I assure you, no progression warrior is wearing block gear on a hard-hitting Ulduar boss unless it's all he/she has in that slot.

The buff to SBV may not be a big change, but show me the math that says that shield block and mitigation from shield damage isn't useful, or is less useful than the effective armor that DKs will have after the nerf, maybe then I'll be a little less worried and a bit more optimistic about my survivability.

I already did above. I have a bit over 1k SBV in my tank set for bosses. If I had much more than that I would have significantly less avoidance and would die more often (it's just the way itemization works; we don't get block for free, we have to give up other stats if we want to gear for it). I have around 16% change to block, and with critical block every third block (over time) is for twice that (2k). So on average I am blocking 1,333 from every 6th or so melee attack. If a boss hits me for 22k after armor, etc, then over time I get hit for 22k, 22k, 22k, 20,777, 22k, and 22k (assuming no avoidance). Assuming you don't avoid them (really I'm assuming that we avoid an equal amount of times, since our avoidance is presumably identical now) then you get hit for 22k each time.

So you get hit for 132,000 damage over this time period, while I get hit for and average of 130,667 damage. Now I can choose to stack SBV and SBR in order to block more (and more often) but then I get hit more often, and avoidance is much more powerful, so in reality the more I try to stack block the greater damage I'll take compared to a DK on hard hitting bosses.

My issue here isn't in being more powerful than other tanks, it is in the fact that we have lost much of what we had to compensate for not having a shield.Even if the shield block buff is marginal, having a shield does account for something significant.

Unfortunately, this is just a myth on hard hitting bosses. I agree with you for trash, but trash doesn't usually block people so much (and there are multiple tanks to help).

If it doesn't, then I would expect that Blizzard will do far more down the road to ensure that it does, and, when they do, where will that leave DKs?

Blue posts have already said that when they actually fix block they're going to have to nerf other abilities to even us out. Maybe they'll decide they don't have to change block after this, or maybe they'll overhaul shield-wearers a lot in the next expansion and we'll have a lot less avoidance or something, I'm not sure. But it certainly would not be fair to actually buff block (if they do overhaul it in the future) and leave everything else as is.

However, I'm worried about how I am supposed to compensate for the loss of Icebound Fortitude uptime that I had. I really don't know where to compensate for that. I could gem for more avoidance, but then I'll lose more of my precious hp, of which I will lose a decent chunk after this change.

No offense, but your healers will have to heal you through it, just like they do for everyone else. IBF was OP because you could time it and your other CDs/trinkets for essentially every bit of spike damage in the game, while other tanks couldn't. On Iron Council even with a glyphed and talented 2 minute SW I'd pop that on the first fusion punch, use my last stand/enraged regen macro on the second, and start pressing trinkets (of course I have to give up my stam trinket to have two click on use trinkets so there goes 1.2k HP). Even so I start getting hit by most of them full on after the 4th one until my CDs come back up. The healers have to take up the slack, and that's how the devs want it, that's why DK cds are being brought closer to everyone elses' rather than having all the other tanks get lots of CD uptime buffs.

All of this said, let me be clear; if DKs truly end up on the PTRs as the least survivable tanks, that is NOT fair and will have to be fixed. My guess is that a targeted armor buff would be the best candidate, as if there are any disadvantages it will be against physical damage. I'm just trying to counter the "sky is falling" mentality. It's not, and if there is an over-nerf it's very slight and we can all agree it should be fixed (if it's needed). It's NOT ok to pretend that block is in any way equivalent to a 1 minute IBF cd, which is basically what is being said here.

Edit: Lulia, Shields do not help you avoid as a mechanic. Of course different shields have different stats on them, and some (like the shield that drops from 25 man patchwerk) have avoidance stats, but that is just like the stats on your weapons, etc. Shields are offensive weapons (e.g. shield slam) but they convey no additional protection aside from their base stats and the block mechanic.

[Satorri]

Nitpick, Esch, DK base health is exactly 8121.


At the end of the day this just means we're going to take more damage and have slightly less of a health buffer. I don't expect it will be a HUMONGOUS change that will completely revise the way we spec or gear (not the tanking changes anyway), but it will mean we'll be needing more heals. As a Blood tank it just makes me sad to lose 7% of my total health when that is what I focus on stacking to buff most of my survival tools.

[Esch]

Icebound Fortitude was our mitigation, it was our replacement for the shield in a way. With all of these changes, you're right, we're going to need mitigation, but we don't need something new, we just need them to not mess with Icebound Fortitude.

That's unrealistic. I've done Vezax, and frankly, my raid's response was along the lines 'loleasy'. The only issue we have is interrupts, and I think it's some dps getting tunnel vision (as usual) instead of keeping an eye for cast bars.

Whether or not I like it, 2min IBF is here. There won't be a glyph, there won't be a talent, or some other run around gimmick. We'll have to learn to manage without that button getting spammed constantly and save it for moments it's truly needed. My larger complaint is the change makes Unholy that much better, for the 'alternate' CD of Boneshield, generating a similar, one-cd-per-minute ability.

Nitpick, Esch, DK base health is exactly 8121.

I'm going to stick to my numbers. I stripped nekkid getting them, which was annoying with my limited bag space . However, it starts as a ~800 nerf regardless of talents, gear or spec.

At the end of the day this just means we're going to take more damage and have slightly less of a health buffer. I don't expect it will be a HUMONGOUS change that will completely revise the way we spec or gear (not the tanking changes anyway), but it will mean we'll be needing more heals. As a Blood tank it just makes me sad to lose 7% of my total health when that is what I focus on stacking to buff most of my survival tools.

I'm with you Satorii. I'm 100% sure I can solo tank Vezax, but it's going to require some gear tweaks, coordinating healers (read: aligning the healer's mitigation talents with my weaker options) & flipping to Unholy. I have no doubt I can get through this, but it's going to be painful. I do think the bat fell too hard, though I can't tell if it's Blizzard's lack of testing or some game of 'nerf to hell and buff back to make players happier'.

[Satorri]

Base Health courtesy of WoWwiki

The way I posted above will give you your health to the dot every time. Base health is 8121, stamina gives you 10 hp per point except for the first 20 which are 1 hp per point. You can apply stam buffs (all multiplicative not additive) and health buffs to that equation.

[jere]

It's the first 18 stam. The health equation subtracts 180 at the end, not 200. Consequently, both of yall's values are 180 different from each other because of that.

I'm going to stick to my numbers. I stripped nekkid getting them, which was annoying with my limited bag space . However, it starts as a ~800 nerf regardless of talents, gear or spec.

You probably took your naked stamina, multiplied it by 10, and subtracted that. That would be partially incorrect. If you look at the amount of health your stamina provides, you will find it to be about 180 less than what Stamina*10 gives you, making your value 180 too low.

[Chamenas]

I'm just trying to counter the "sky is falling" mentality. It's not, and if there is an over-nerf it's very slight and we can all agree it should be fixed (if it's needed). It's NOT ok to pretend that block is in any way equivalent to a 1 minute IBF cd, which is basically what is being said here.

First off, thank you for clarifying the shield. I can admit I don't know much about shields and so the avoidance thing was just from what I had heard. However, I have not acted like the sky is falling, and yet I'm still quite concerned. Your posts act quite opposite to what you counter in an equal extreme. You act as if DKs have been playing on god-mode and been invincible all this time, which is VERY untrue. Even on bosses like the Iron Council, Icebound Fortitude has never been up so often that I could counter ALL spike damage. In fact, once again, we went to our pally tank because he could cleanse himself of the DoT.

If what you say is true, about Blizzard's intentions, then it's a very wrong way for them to go. Already there's too much put on the healers, we shouldn't be making one role so responsible over the success of a raid. As it was right now it was more balanced between the rolls. DK tanks had to use cooldowns effectively and healers had to keep them up along with the raid, Ulduar is very healing intensive. Putting more responsibility on healers just slows progression. It's tough to find healers, let alone good healers and it's not a good idea to get in the habit of putting more on them. If anything, I'd say reduce the cooldowns for the other tanks, but really, the cooldowns distinguished DKs, putting them in line with what other tansk have is a bit ridiculous. Unless you've tanked with a DK I dont think you can understand the difference the CDs make. It isn't like they go from awesome to god-mode, it keeps them alive when they would otherwise die.

[Chamenas]

Whether or not I like it, 2min IBF is here. There won't be a glyph, there won't be a talent, or some other run around gimmick. We'll have to learn to manage without that button getting spammed constantly and save it for moments it's truly needed. My larger complaint is the change makes Unholy that much better, for the 'alternate' CD of Boneshield, generating a similar, one-cd-per-minute ability.

You can't spam a 1-minute ability, that's a very exaggerated example. I did use it only when it was needed. Often times I needed it more than once a minute, but on average if it was needed for a particular ability the ability took longer than 1 minute to re-proc, but less than 2 minutes. It simply won't be there when we need it sometimes and that bothers me, because we don't have some of the tricks that other tanks do, and now we have less health and less hp. It's not any one change besides Icebound Fortitude that's the problem, it's all of them at once. As I said, this is very bad design, imo.

These things should happen in steps, but Blizzard seems to like to over nerf before they rebuff again, which is ridiculous. In the mean time, a lot of us DKs are going to get more deaths, slower progression and likely be less favored tanks which will hurt us in the long run. It's not like tanking is over, but to act like this won't hurt us or affect things down the road is also ridiculous. There's a reason that nerfing something at its onset is bad, and over-nerfing in response to being overpowered is just as bad. I like Blizzard and I wasn't bothered by previous changes, because they happened mostly one at a time. But suddenly Blizzard has decided to slam one huge bat, and I don't like where it might put us.

[Dtain]

.... Even on bosses like the Iron Council, Icebound Fortitude has never been up so often that I could counter ALL spike damage. In fact, once again, we went to our pally tank because he could cleanse himself of the DoT.

You could just as easily have a dps or healer with a cleanse ability remove it. Saying this makes a pally tank better at taking spike damage is a bit of a cop out.

DK tanks had to use cooldowns effectively and healers had to keep them up along with the raid, Ulduar is very healing intensive. Putting more responsibility on healers just slows progression. It's tough to find healers, let alone good healers and it's not a good idea to get in the habit of putting more on them.

This is true for all tanks not just DKs

If anything, I'd say reduce the cooldowns for the other tanks, but really, the cooldowns distinguished DKs, putting them in line with what other tansk have is a bit ridiculous. Unless you've tanked with a DK I dont think you can understand the difference the CDs make. It isn't like they go from awesome to god-mode, it keeps them alive when they would otherwise die.

The tanking core for my guild since naxx has Been Warrior, DK, Pally(myself) since we walked into naxx. I have a DK alt that i tank with who is in naxx 25 gear, I'm mentioning this so that you can see that I understand the mechanics of both Pally tanking and DK tanking.

Previously a DK and an equally geared Pally took roughly the same ammount of damage per swing while not using cooldowns.

Now the issue is Pallys had 1 cooldown on a two minute timer, while the DKs depending on spec have 2-3 on 1-2 minute timers.

Now you could stack those cooldowns one after another and have a very high uptime of cooldowns on fights where there is a large burst to worry about. On fights where there is multipe bursts that stand a high chance of killing you, you have a cooldown for each one generally(not always but a good ammount of the time) meanwhile the pally after the first one has to wait two minutes and hope for the best on any burst that comes in the mean time or rely on external cooldowns.


Will this nerf kill DK tanking? No.

Will they take more damage and require a bit more healing? Yes.

Will they require substantially more healing then another tank class? No.

[Chamenas]

Will this nerf kill DK tanking? No.

Yes, however it was overpowered before so nerf just brings it back into line. The question is about how much they're nerfing, not whether or not they needed one, that answer was obvious and they're getting it.

Will they require substantially more healing then another tank class? No.

Yes, I already require more healing sans Icebound Fortitude. The fact of the matter is that I already don't use it when I don't need it and I've found that I take a LOT more damage. The one thing that theory can't do is represent what actually happens, and I've gone through it. I use Icebound Fortitude a lot more than I used to just a week or two ago because the damage I took was significantly more without it and I required far more healing than any other tank.

As I said, it's not like it will be impossible to tank. I don't understand why everyone that responds acts as if we keep saying that DKs wont be able to tank anymore. Of course the argument is in your favor if you try to argue that point against us, but that's not what we're saying. DKs will be inferior tanks, they will die far more often, progression will slow down.

We won't know until it happens. I really don't want to whine about it, I'm just concerned about what I'll need to do differently once it happens because I doubt it will be stopped. Right now I'm thinking we'll see Paladins rise to the top and become by far the best tanks, with DKs and Warriors fighting for second in inferior land, but we'll see.

Edit:
Also, the comment on fusion punch was a direct response to an example made earlier. I never once tried to make it seem like Paladins were better for burst damage because of it, don't even try to act like I did.

[TomHuxley]

Yes, I already require more healing sans Icebound Fortitude. The fact of the matter is that I already don't use it when I don't need it and I've found that I take a LOT more damage.

I'm sorry, that just isn't possible unless you are comparing yourself to a much better geared member of the other class. DKs currently have more armor, more health, and more avoidance in addition to their CDs. It's been shown repeatedly that TTL on DKs is among the best (although druids often do very well too because of their high HPs) even without any CDs.

I'm not saying you don't feel that way, but it must be a perception thing (e.g. how it feels once the CD is gone). To be sure when Wrath first shipped and we were all sprinting through heroics it _was_ true, as the amount blocked was actually worth quite a lot when mobs hit you for 2-8k. And back then DKs had to live or die on their CDs, which meant that if you Fed up your rotation you did indeed go down hard unless you had a really good healer. But it was far overcorrected during Naxx progression (the infamous 3.0.8 patch was the largest culprit) and several people pointed it out at the time, but since everyone was overgeared and breezing through Naxx anyways it didn't really matter.

I use Icebound Fortitude a lot more than I used to just a week or two ago because the damage I took was significantly more without it and I required far more healing than any other tank.

I would expect so, as you lost a decent chunk of armor. But the math shows you were still easier to heal than an equivalently geared pally or warrior, even when CDs weren't up. It's just that your CDs became more important.

DKs will be inferior tanks, they will die far more often, progression will slow down.

If this really happens then you will need a buff, hopefully before the PTRs are done. But so far the math doesn't support that this is going to put you at a significant disadvantage compared to pallies and warriors. It will make your healers have to work harder...just like mine do.

Right now I'm thinking we'll see Paladins rise to the top and become by far the best tanks, with DKs and Warriors fighting for second in inferior land, but we'll see.

Possibly. As someone who's been fighting that way all through Wrath I could be snarky and welcome you to the club, but honestly I don't think pallies are getting much of a buff so I'm not too worried; obviously we'll have to watch the PTRs to know for sure.

[TomHuxley]

If what you say is true, about Blizzard's intentions, then it's a very wrong way for them to go. Already there's too much put on the healers, we shouldn't be making one role so responsible over the success of a raid.

Wait...so the 3-6 healers composed of 4 different healing classes (depending on raid size and makeup) shouldn't have it all put on them, and to fix that one tanking class should be able to take the pressure off of them? Doesn't that make the raid success dependent on even fewer people/roles?

As it was right now it was more balanced between the rolls. DK tanks had to use cooldowns effectively and healers had to keep them up along with the raid, Ulduar is very healing intensive. Putting more responsibility on healers just slows progression.

You mean like for all the other tanks?

It's tough to find healers, let alone good healers and it's not a good idea to get in the habit of putting more on them. If anything, I'd say reduce the cooldowns for the other tanks, but really, the cooldowns distinguished DKs, putting them in line with what other tansk have is a bit ridiculous.

Ok, so no offense, but this sort of statement is what makes other tanks respond with a tinge of umbrage. Currently (pre-PTR nerf) DKs are less squishy than warriors and pallies even without their CDs. You're saying that the importance of your CDs is that it allows you to succeed without having to worry as much about the abilities/gear of others. If you can explain to me what the difference is between "trivialize content" and "not have to worry about finding good healers" go ahead, but even then how do you justify that you'd prefer for DKs to keep the best CDs too because it "distinguishes" them. I'm sorry, but simply being the best at both normal mitigation, avoidance, HP, and CDs is not a "role", it's being handed easier success than other players, period. No it's not "god-mode" but it still means you get more success and depend less on the rest of the raid than other tanks, and that isn't balanced.

Unless you've tanked with a DK I dont think you can understand the difference the CDs make. It isn't like they go from awesome to god-mode, it keeps them alive when they would otherwise die.

My co-tank (in theory he was the OT, but only because he did better DPS then I when no second tank was needed, not because of skill or gear) all through Naxx was a DK, I have a pretty good feel for what a very skilled DK tank can accomplish.

If you want to take it up with Blizzard that healers should be less important and tanks more so give it a shot, but that's a game design problem and has nothing to do with balance (good luck with that, Blizz has been very clear that they like the current difficulty with shield tanks and think that DKs tanks are making encounters too easy). The current PTR situation is very close to balance...certainly a lot closer than has yet occurred in Wrath. And if DKs end up with the lowest survivability on the PTRs, I'll be making posts saying that Blizz should correct it.

[Chamenas]

Well, I could point you to the whole THREAD on buffs that paladins are getting. It's a bit ridiculous that they, of all classes, should get so much buff attention, but yes, they will end up with more than they left with, and with DKs taking a hit it seems logical that they will end up on top. As I said, I have no problem with being balanced, but I just don't see balance happening, I see over-nerfing. And as nice as math is for theory, it just does not pan out the real scenarios.

As I said, do we really want to put MORE responsibility on our healers? Healers are rare as it is, good healers are rarer still. By dumping a crapload of more work on healers, we're likely to see far slower progression and a lot more deaths when DKs get hit, and DKs will see the bulk of it because they'll be taking far more damage than they used to. I don't have the math to show that we already took a hefty amount of damage without cooldowns, so I can't continue to argue that point, but I think it will be made pretty clear once 3.2 comes out. Especially with diminishing returns in avoidance, DKs without cooldowns become ticking timebombs, they look fine for 5-6 hits: parry, dodge, miss, dodge, dodge, miss, parry... then bam, 22k, 22k, 22k, 22k, dead DK. That's just on normal melee for hard hitting bosses, remember, now that Icebound Fortitude will have a 2 min CD we'll have to save it for the spike damage of such bosses, like tantrum on XT. So all of those 22k hits will go unmitigated by our lower armor and our health will creep dangerously lower since it starts lower.

I'm sorry if I seem butt-hurt, but I've worked hard to get my tank to where it is. I haven't roflstomped anything, it's been a lot of work and a lot of practice, a lot of losing on rolls and waiting patiently to get things. This is a big whack in the balls and a slap in the face. The reward I get for working hard and trying to have fun is to be told I'm overpowered?

I'm sorry, but with my CDs down, I won't feel like a tank. How am I supposed to protect myself? I have to rely on some healer, so that when I die, 99% of the time it will be the healers fault. It won't take more skill on my part to play, I know when I'm supposed to use the CDs, I only tossed them in extra when I could, to help the healers. Now I won't have that and when I can't use the CD, even if it's not spike damage, there's a lot more places where I'm going to die and I can't control it. That's not fun, fun is being able to learn and grow and control what happens to you. Putting healers in control of what happens to me and taking that out of my hands is going to make many fights less fun. Kiting fights and such should hopefully not suffer too much, but other fights will and I hope I'll still enjoy tanking, I just think I'll see a lot more dying and a lot more frustration when I can't do anything about it.

[Chamenas]

Wait...so the 3-6 healers composed of 4 different healing classes (depending on raid size and makeup) shouldn't have it all put on them, and to fix that one tanking class should be able to take the pressure off of them? Doesn't that make the raid success dependent on even fewer people/roles?

You act as if I said I should have control of the raid's success, which is wrong. You cannot counter argue by taking the extreme opposite of my point. All I said was that it should not be solely on the healers, I said nothing about it solely relying on tank skill. Ideally it's a balance between dps skill, tank skill and healer skill. With these changes a lot more falls on the healers and a lot less falls on the tanks, that's not fun nor wise.

Ok, so no offense, but this sort of statement is what makes other tanks respond with a tinge of umbrage. Currently (pre-PTR nerf) DKs are less squishy than warriors and pallies even without their CDs. You're saying that the importance of your CDs is that it allows you to succeed without having to worry as much about the abilities/gear of others. If you can explain to me what the difference is between "trivialize content" and "not have to worry about finding good healers" go ahead, but even then how do you justify that you'd prefer for DKs to keep the best CDs too because it "distinguishes" them. I'm sorry, but simply being the best at both normal mitigation, avoidance, HP, and CDs is not a "role", it's being handed easier success than other players, period. No it's not "god-mode" but it still means you get more success and depend less on the rest of the raid than other tanks, and that isn't balanced.

Maybe you feel that way because you have a bit of bias and anger in you, not because you truly understand what I'm trying to say. I've said it many times so I'll leave it to you to re-read if you actually care to understand. The hint is this: I don't want to sit there doing nothing, cringing as I'm almost near death and knowing I can't do shit to stop it.

My co-tank (in theory he was the OT, but only because he did better DPS then I when no second tank was needed, not because of skill or gear) all through Naxx was a DK, I have a pretty good feel for what a very skilled DK tank can accomplish.

I could say the same with the other DK, and the Paladin tank I've run with. You act as if no one else has seen other tanks tank.

If you want to take it up with Blizzard that healers should be less important and tanks more so give it a shot, but that's a game design problem and has nothing to do with balance (good luck with that, Blizz has been very clear that they like the current difficulty with shield tanks and think that DKs tanks are making encounters too easy). The current PTR situation is very close to balance...certainly a lot closer than has yet occurred in Wrath. And if DKs end up with the lowest survivability on the PTRs, I'll be making posts saying that Blizz should correct it.

If the PTR is so close, then why has the game ultimately failed there thus far? Why does the projected plan seem doomed to fail? There's many many issues with tanking the power of staying alive out of the tank's hands.

[TomHuxley]

Hey Lulia, first let me point out that no one (or at least not me) is saying you didn't personally work hard to succeed, or that DK tanks don't require any skill. Anyone who says so is full of it. If you were a good tank before the nerf you'll be a good tank afterwards. That said, there may have been other tanks of other classes with the same story and skill as yours who didn't even get as far as you did because they were by nature squishier and lacked CDs.

As I said, do we really want to put MORE responsibility on our healers? Healers are rare as it is, good healers are rarer still. By dumping a crapload of more work on healers, we're likely to see far slower progression

I don't know what to tell you; it's the way the game is designed. Raiding requires that you work with others who are also good. A friend (and ardent raider) once told me after some guild drama bumped us back to 10 man raids in TBC for a while that the hardest part of raiding isn't learning to push our buttons in the right order, it's finding 24 other people of the right attitude, skill, class distribution, and availability. If you do 10 man raids it's the same, but you need 9 other people. The social factor is supposed to be the appeal of an MMO, and Blizz has made repeated blue posts that there were going to have to brink DKs down rather than everyone else up.

Ulduar is still easier than T5 raiding was in TBC before the content was nerfed. And 3.2 will also come with new ways to get better gear so that will make progression easier.

I'm sorry if I seem butt-hurt, but I've worked hard to get my tank to where it is. I haven't roflstomped anything, it's been a lot of work and a lot of practice, a lot of losing on rolls and waiting patiently to get things. This is a big whack in the balls and a slap in the face. The reward I get for working hard and trying to have fun is to be told I'm overpowered?

Hey, I hear you. Everyone who finds success at tanking has to put in time and effort. Healing and tanking are just harder than DPS (don't jump my sh!t DPS fans, my original main was DPS). But everyone who tanks also wants to succeed and have fun regardless of class, and the numbers (and guild's who switch tanks) have shown conclusively since 3.1 that DK tanks are easier to heal than other classes.

So I don't blame you for feeling butt-hurt, honest. Remember that warriors used to be almost the defacto main tank, and most of the warrior tanks you see all had to go through this same transition when Wrath shipped, so I have genuine sympathy for your situation. But tanks have always had to rely on their healers to keep them alive. All of the tanks have more control over their destinies in Wrath than ever before (shieldwall used to be on a 30 minute cooldown...no joke!). Being a tank means gearing to be able to take the hits well enough that your healers can keep you up. If your healers can't then either try to help them learn more about their classes (in a very polite manner) or else start recruiting new healers.

And who knows, it may end up that you need some extra armor to make up for block; if so then I'll be on your side. But we need real math, real WWS parses, etc to back that up.

[TomHuxley]

All I said was that it should not be solely on the healers, I said nothing about it solely relying on tank skill. Ideally it's a balance between dps skill, tank skill and healer skill.

You said that, but the point is you will be finding the exact same balance that other tank classes have. I've simply had to rely on my healers more (but still less than in previous expansions) than you up till now, and after this we'll be at the same level of dependency.

With these changes a lot more falls on the healers and a lot less falls on the tanks, that's not fun nor wise.

It's just as fun and wise as it is for everyone else.

The hint is this: I don't want to sit there doing nothing, cringing as I'm almost near death and knowing I can't do shit to stop it.

It's not like you won't have CDs and trinkets and pots. Your CDs are just bringing down to where you'll be cringing as much as the rest of us. Sometimes you just have to depend on your healers.

I could say the same with the other DK, and the Paladin tank I've run with. You act as if no one else has seen other tanks tank.

Huh? You had just said that I had to play a DK to understand how important the CDs were, and I was telling you I've seen what they do for a DK. I wasn't even mentioning your knowledge of other classes.

If the PTR is so close, then why has the game ultimately failed there thus far?

Ok, now you've lost me. How has the game failed? These are just balance issues; they happen all the time to different classes. It's a normal part of developing a game this large and complex.

There's many many issues with tanking the power of staying alive out of the tank's hands.

All I can tell you is that tanks have had more control over their destinies in Wrath than ever before in WoW. And you'll still have just as good of CDs as other tanks and atm it looks like you'll fare just as well even when they're down.

[Satorri]

There's a lot of back and forth here. Suffice to say, and the data is in another thread HERE, DK's have a distinct edge at the moment, thus the unequivocable nerf. We'll see how it plays through the PTR (bearing in mind these numbers are just reaching the PTR which isn't even open yet). They may be scaled back, they may remain the same, the same is true of the protadin buffs.

Suffice to say, while I'll miss the big chunk of health and small but noticeable chunk of physical damage reduction, they will not kill the class, nor will they probably even amount to a very noticeable difference. Parses will bear the difference, but no one else will probably bat an eyelash. I will, amid the tears for yesteryear.