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Thread: 3.2 Dk Tank Huge nerf ?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrelnut View Post
    Yes I was mainly referring to previous mechanical advantage from cooldown possibilities however 6k more health for equal or slightly lesser gear, higher armor and aoe threat were also advantages. The issue with SBV is that it simply does not provide a level of mitigation to make it worthwhile to switch gear pieces and lose our other important tanking stats to take advantage of the SBV change. Discussion of the topic has begun at: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/5...ock-value.html

    If SBV were on the gear which we already use then perhaps it would be more of a change however many tanks to not use gear with SBV on it for progression content thus the change has no effect unless we switch gear pieces at far too high of a cost to other avoidance/health/threat stats
    I can understand that SBV is not going to be as good as cooldowns, but think about this: SBV is constant, cooldowns are not. Even with something like IB at 1 minute cooldown, there is still plenty of downtime in the minute where DKs have NOTHING other than their armor to do any sort of mitigation. For effective balancing, something that is constant should be less in value, since it provides something that a cooldown can't.

    In addition, your comments on cooldowns as a mechanical advantage that make tanking easy seem to also be out of line. As mentioned before, whereas SBV is constant (all you need a shield and gear with SBV on it), cooldowns require timing, and, ultimately, to be used to their fullest potential, they need skill and knowledge of the fight. Thus, though the cooldowns provide a nicer mechanical advantage, I would argue they require more work and thought to be used effectively.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulia View Post
    Where is the 1.3 coming from? That doesn't look like double to me, but my math skills are iffy at best so I'd like to know why it's 1.3 instead of 2.
    30% bonus block from talents.

    Only the stat "block value" on items is going to be doubled, nothing else. Since most of actual amount blocked comes from the shield and from strength, nothing really changes. Unless we stack block gear, but that still won't be viable in progression content.

  3. #23
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    I never intended to say anything was easy; good cooldown usage requires timing and skill the same as all other talents in good tanking. My point was simply that the cooldown change was a part of DKs are being brought in line with other tanks and are not being made a non viable choice.

  4. #24
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    heh

    I'm geared with 4pcs T8 and have only one 200 ilvl. Xt-002 swing me arround 22-26k dmg in blood barrier, overal damage taken is about 200k dmg more than pala tank who dont have any T8.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Wait, Rialev, maybe I'm missing something, how does the Frost Pres not come out as a big drop in EH? It's 4% of your health, basically, lopped off.

    We're getting nerfed, though to be fair I don't think it is from a point of parity. We're going to be weaker survival tanks than we are currently, but not probably any weaker than the other classes. My most frequent tanking partner is a prot warrior who's been generally unhappy with the fact that in comparable gear I have more health, more armor, and stronger CDs. Now he gets a suped up blocking gear and I'm losing a big chunk of health and armor, and the ability to use IBF as often as I do.
    Well as much as i hate to say it, try thinking like a warrior for a minute.

    If anyone remembers how many changes, buffs, and nerfs this class got during vanilla...

    At any rate, we're undergoing a damage control phase right now. Blizzard made the class... made it far too powerful in comparison with other classes, and is now in a big hurry to get to where it should be.

    In the ideal world, no tank should be better than any other tank for any reason. Do I think that can be done? No, of course not. One class will always have a leg up in certain situations. However, I do think blizzard is doing a much better job at actually balancing the playing field to what each tank's proposed abilities should be.

    Am I greatly thrilled with the changes? Hell no, i'm definitely not happy about it. But I'll do what I did last patch, and the patch before, and the one before that, and so on and so forth. I'll continue to strive to be the best regardless of the changes. And though it's a poor example, there were a couple enhancement shamans in the top rated brackets of arena during the burning crusade despite everyone else saying that it was impossible...

    In a tanking perspective, we're far from being a bad choice in tanks regardless of how strong this patch will effect the DK. And most of you I'm sure will do exactly what you did last patch, and did your best to overcome any changes. And in the long run, it's going to make us a better choice in tank from a player standpoint rather than a class standpoint.
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  6. #26
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    My priest is lvl77.

    People always need a healer right?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basridire View Post
    Likely is not certainty, and if I do have more, its laughable. 1k armor is NOT better than having a shield. Even if you dont stack SBV and you avoid it like the plague. The SBV of a warrior was generally what? 1K? Make that 2k now. You cant tell me 2k off any given hit is worse than 1k armor, thats what? 2% less damage if that?
    it does not double SBV.

    it doubles the block value from jewelery, trinkets, armor and capes.

    Most Warriors do not choose to have block value on those items because as a itemization stat, BV is useless, it doesn't scale. Our 4 piece T8 has about 166 SBV on it, so double that to 332, still useless. if we could trade that 166 for 166 points in more useful stats we would. double a useless stat is still a useless stat in this case... until they fix block. By the way, we also have to use a second useless stat just to make the first one work, block rating. SBV is also useless against magic damage.

    also, armor scales.

    It reduces damage by a %, so the amount reduced on a big hit is more than a small hit. blocking doesnt, if i block for 2K on a 2K hit, yay no damage, if i block for 2K on a 25K hit, yeah still taking 23K damage. On large slow melee hits, Armor > Blocking.

  8. #28
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    The nerfs are huge.... the nerfs are heartbreaking.... on the upside, they are buffing my warrior's block right?

    Goodbye The World of Warcraft Armory , welcome back The World of Warcraft Armory . . . . . . .

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  9. #29
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    Think of it this way as well. Paladins get a shield and Divine Protection, which will be roughly equivalent to Icebound Fortitude after the "change". In addition, although Warriors do not seem to have a similar ability (I don't know them that well, I had to look through their talents on slightly) they do get 60% dam reduction every 5 minutes in addition to the fact that they have a shield combined with any other mitigation abilities they likely have.

    As has been noted, I have no problem being brought in line with other classes. And I'm STILL going to play and attempt to play as well as I can despite the change. I just find the Icebound Fortitude change excessive and unneeded, it may, in fact, be something that breaks many DK tanks and could easily be the reason many DKs fall in some battles. Having 50% damage reduction for 12 seconds every 1 minute is key when we lack a shield, and when our armor value continues to drop significantly with the last patch and this upcoming one.

    4%+ health lost, sucks, but it's fine and we can work around it. The same with most any of the other changes. The Frost Strike change sucks, but hey, it wasn't as if I was suffering in the threat area anyways, I imagine I will now just have to be a bit more careful there. I don't like the dual wield stuff, I don't think dual wielding is yet ready to be a more viable tanking spec than two-handers, but I'd love to be proven wrong, I'd love to dual wield tank. But, overall, the only change that really worries me is the cooldown to Icebound Fortitude. I'm really quite worried about where this leads and whether or not I can make up for it in other areas.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Just curious, as math has never been a strong suit, is it just a 4% difference or on a point for point basis is it larger? Right now the bonus is a straight 10% of health; the bonus will change to 6% of stamina? Seems it would be greater than 4%, since the bonus will no longer be on ground up health, but only take into account that portion of the health increased by stamina and increase that lower base number by a lower percentage.
    For the sake of math:

    Base DK health (nonTauren) is about 7941 with 209 stamina => 10031 HP.

    First casualty of the Frost Presence change is 794 hitpoint we get off the base health. Note druid caught a similar nerf like this in... 3.0, I believe (shifting from total health to total stamina). For me, I further lose 4% health from the ~3k stamina (stacked raid buffs), or ~1200 hitpoints. All in all, I'm going to lose 2k hit points, before I add in the lost of stamina from VoTW.

    Overall:
    Icebound Fortitude: The nerf was coming, and anyone paying attention to Blizzard's nerfing of the Shieldwall glyph on 3.1 PTR could realize it. I'm surprised they didn't hotfix this change and decided to wait for a content patch, but I'm 99% certain this is final and definite. It's also tolerable, as proven by three other classes managing with weaker and/or longer cooldowns to succeed on all content currently. Note I said succeed, not how 'well' compared to a 3.1 DK spec.


    VoTW: I find this one both frustrating and dissappointing, though I suspect it's meant to pull Blood DKs back into a more consistent hitpoint pool, even though the talent design has always been about health/healing as a form of mitigation. I suspect this is intended to get more 'variety' of DKs again. Note blizzard has been concerned by all the Unholy DKs pre 3.1, perhaps they feel Blood is too popular atm, especially in stamina stacked progression fights.


    Toughness: For me and most of that mathcrafters, 1110 armor on a raidbuffed level 80 DK. Call it about 1.5% mitigation loss, roughly. I'd not even care except this is a further nerf after the Frost Presence armor reduction (from 80% to 60%) and the loss of AP from Bladed Armor. Again, blood too popular? Talent syngery is too good? Irony is that warrior Armor to the Teeth (AttT) now has the same effect of 1 AP per 36 armor... but at 3 talent points compared to the DK's 5 talent points. I consider that set up insulting given DK reliance on DPS to generate threat instead of controlled high-threat abilities.

    In this case, I'ld like to see Bladed Armor reduced to the same 3 point talent, with 3 AP per 108 armor at 3/3.This suggestion would almost make 8 talent points in blood 'mandatory' for any DK build, which is a liability to the idea


    Frost Presence: I did the math above, but frankly, this is the killer change. We have the least 'passive' mitigation (5% FP, 5% Blade Barrier --> 9.75% mitigation), and now we're losing the hitpoint advantage that compensated. If we're going to have to eat this change, we're either going to need additional mitigation (remember, no shield folks, it's avoid or get hit by an attack) or this presence will need improvement. Currently, DKs are falling behind a bit too much and blizzard is going to encourage Unholy (again) for the variety of mitigation that spec can provide.

  11. #31
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    Newcommers.

    Am i the only one here who is concerned about the "newcomers"?

    Just as last patch where we got our first "big nerf" i now again sits and stares at the notes and comments from blizzard...

    Last time blizzard directly stated that they buffed DK's back in the beginning because no one wanted to heal them in heroics and so forth, but once the DK had gotten all his gear from Naxx25 and so forth, they realized he was way to powerfull, and took much less damage than other tanks...

    Euhm... ok... I Can agree that i saw that trend, and i can see i still saw it far in Ulduar back then, but im just thinking, if you buffed DK's back then because they where dropping like rooks in heroics, then what are the new DK's who goes through that phase doing now?...

    I don't disagree in particular that DK's had become way to powerfull in the tanking role, and that the previous "nerf" was called for, for those who had the gear, i was more concerned how it affected the lower tiers of DK's, and that what really might have been wrong about the class is the way we scale with gear. But i don't know really... I hope the concerns are unfounded....

    I would really like to hear from people going through that phase, because if we are to have fresh DK tanks growing up, the class should ofc. still be able to tank at this level.

    After i have been tanking past our last nerf, i could still see that i proberly was a little more solid on the bosses in Ulduar than most of my fellow tanks... But, i also know i was often thinking that it feelt about right, i wasn't to slid, nor was i to fragile... And that Shield bearers should properly be lifted to that level... Obviously i was wrong... i had to get

    Regarding the SBV, as far as i know they where not happy about just increasing the value on items for SBV, they wanted to fix it in another way so it got better, and to a point where it was as good as they first thought it would be.

    So why try to balance DK's around 2 classes they already know they are not happy with when we talk the way they mitigate, is the philosophy just to bring us all to the bottom and then build us up again?... i REALLY don't get why they choose to put so much energy into that, instead of actually fixing SBV so it becomes usefull, and then see what that does to the playing field.

    Well thats just my thoughts... at my gear level I'm not to concerned with how i will progress further, i might not be our MT as much, but then again, i need a break. o.O

  12. #32
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    Anyone who didnt see this coming just wasnt being very realistic. Hopefully it helps put things back in order.

    I'm not gonna lie I dont mind when things arent balanced. I get to dps every now and then since weve been using DKs on certain fights just to make them easier.

    edit: if things keep going the way they are.. eventually they will do to tank classes like they did to profession bonuses.. make everything basically the same.

    2nd edit: lol at my sig

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulia View Post
    I can understand that SBV is not going to be as good as cooldowns, but think about this: SBV is constant, cooldowns are not. Even with something like IB at 1 minute cooldown, there is still plenty of downtime in the minute where DKs have NOTHING other than their armor to do any sort of mitigation. For effective balancing, something that is constant should be less in value, since it provides something that a cooldown can't.
    SBV is not constant, it only comes into play when you actually block an attack. The only thing a shield does is add armor and the ability to block. Most warriors probably have 16-24% chance to block depending on gear. DK's not having a shield is hardly a difference considering their armor bonus is much more impressive.

  14. #34
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    This
    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    Overall:
    Icebound Fortitude: The nerf was coming, and anyone paying attention to Blizzard's nerfing of the Shieldwall glyph on 3.1 PTR could realize it. I'm surprised they didn't hotfix this change and decided to wait for a content patch, but I'm 99% certain this is final and definite. It's also tolerable, as proven by three other classes managing with weaker and/or longer cooldowns to succeed on all content currently. Note I said succeed, not how 'well' compared to a 3.1 DK spec.
    And yet here you say:
    Frost Presence: I did the math above, but frankly, this is the killer change. We have the least 'passive' mitigation (5% FP, 5% Blade Barrier --> 9.75% mitigation), and now we're losing the hitpoint advantage that compensated. If we're going to have to eat this change, we're either going to need additional mitigation (remember, no shield folks, it's avoid or get hit by an attack) or this presence will need improvement. Currently, DKs are falling behind a bit too much and blizzard is going to encourage Unholy (again) for the variety of mitigation that spec can provide.
    We had additional mitigation, we have currently Icebound Fortitude for 12 seconds out of every minute if we so choose. If this change goes through we lose that protective shield and take far more damage than any other tanking class in the game. Icebound Fortitude was our mitigation, it was our replacement for the shield in a way. With all of these changes, you're right, we're going to need mitigation, but we don't need something new, we just need them to not mess with Icebound Fortitude.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by RodDog View Post
    SBV is not constant, it only comes into play when you actually block an attack. The only thing a shield does is add armor and the ability to block. Most warriors probably have 16-24% chance to block depending on gear. DK's not having a shield is hardly a difference considering their armor bonus is much more impressive.
    Not anymore, bud. We've lost a lot of that when you stack this change with the last change. In addition, Icebound Fortitude was our true mitigation answer, with this change we get screwed out of that royally. No one is saying DKs suck at tanking, that would be a ridiculous assertion. We just wonder why Blizzard has to go too far when they make adjustments. It would seem far more reasonable to take it step by step, rather than whack DKs hard with the bat just to see if they'll still be standing. I can understand many of the changes, I can't understand why they're changing Icebound Fortitude.

  16. #36
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    DK tanks: dodge, parry(worst tanking stat), armor, CD

    The 80% to 60% arm nerf was deserved, i have both warr and DK and now they are even in the hit points and armor, which is totally fair and agrees the policy of equality in general situation, BUT further nerfs? why? was it necesary?
    The CD are the trademark of the DKs, even more, tank spec was by excellence the frost one, now the are not only forcing you go UH but also "go UH w/o an arm and w an eye closed", totally unnecesary.
    I have LS in my warr tank gliphed to 2min CD and is great, the equivalent on a DK is terrible, of a min a DK can have 20-30secs free of CD use, and thats what makes him goes through hard hitting fights then you have the armor to compensate= gone too! LOL?
    But not happy w that the nerf to FS is a huge one(blocked, parried, dodged), "not only you will tank w 1 arm and 1 eye closed, now go hit like a girl too"
    maybe was a nerf aimed at DPS Frost DK, but the collateral dmg went to our tanks, GJ blizz.
    And BTW whoever thinks tanks classes are even now take another look at any paladin tank w a minimun of tanking knowledge, I don't like nerfs to any classes, as a GM that at the end affects my raids, but how can they think pallys need more buffs and the rest nerfs, is a slap on our faces.
    When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity. - Albert Einstein

  17. #37
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    No offense, but a lot of people in this thread apparently don't understand block; the amount of block on non-shield, non-trinket items is getting doubled. So regular armor (heads, chest, etc) plus rings; that is all. Since for boss gear we have to avoid that junk like the plague (because we have to give up avoidance to stack it) that's almost never going to be more than 100 or so SBV.

    In my current boss tank set I have barely over 1k SBV, and I'll get into the 1100's with this change. See how it's not even worth talking about? And I don't get to block "any given attack", in my boss set I shave on average 1,333 damage off of every 6th or so melee hit (again on average, and taking critical block into account). So if a boss is hitting me for for 22k a pop that is 1.00984% extra mitigation against physical attacks (I had to go out to that many places just to show I wasn't picking 1% out of thin air).

    So anyways, block does absolutely zilch on hard hitting bosses like those we find Ulduar. If DKs have identical stats to warriors plus an extra 400 hp, 400 AC, etc there can be no arguement that it will be unbalanced.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomHuxley View Post
    No offense, but a lot of people in this thread apparently don't understand block; the amount of block on non-shield, non-trinket items is getting doubled. So regular armor (heads, chest, etc) plus rings; that is all. Since for boss gear we have to avoid that junk like the plague (because we have to give up avoidance to stack it) that's almost never going to be more than 100 or so SBV.

    In my current boss tank set I have barely over 1k SBV, and I'll get into the 1100's with this change. See how it's not even worth talking about? And I don't get to block "any given attack", in my boss set I shave on average 1,333 damage off of every 6th or so melee hit (again on average, and taking critical block into account). So if a boss is hitting me for for 22k a pop that is 1.00984% extra mitigation against physical attacks (I had to go out to that many places just to show I wasn't picking 1% out of thin air).

    So anyways, block does absolutely zilch on hard hitting bosses like those we find Ulduar. If DKs have identical stats to warriors plus an extra 400 hp, 400 AC, etc there can be no arguement that it will be unbalanced.
    But, as it stands, you DO have the ability to block and mitigate with a shield. DKs do not. Losing hp and armor is understandable, extending our cooldowns does not make sense. If you put DKs and Warriors at the same health and armor class, it's unbalanced in favor of Warriors and BY FAR balanced in favor of Paladins.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulia View Post
    But, as it stands, you DO have the ability to block and mitigate with a shield. DKs do not.
    Did you not see where block currently accounts for 1% of my physical mitigation against a medium-hitting Ulduar boss??? Even with a shield a warrior has less armor than an equally geared DK after the nerf. If the shields aren't letting us have better stats and block only accounts for around 1% physical mitigation (less on harder hitting bosses, more on lighter hitters) what does it matter? How do your self-heals not cover that by themselves?


    Losing hp and armor is understandable, extending our cooldowns does not make sense. If you put DKs and Warriors at the same health and armor class, it's unbalanced in favor of Warriors and BY FAR balanced in favor of Paladins.
    How? Right now paladins are the worst represented tanks in hard mode encounters...and the only buff they are getting is a CD change (the block "buff" does little more for them than it does for warriors). IBF was just too good. It had longer up time and was available every minute. Now your CDs are pretty much in line with other tanks and so is your mitigation. You still have better anti-magic abilities unless a warrior has the T8 4 piece set bonus (in which case they're about the same).

    If anything I'm concerned that DKs need a bit more armor to help with lower level content (heroics, early Naxx) where block might actually matter, but on any Ulduar boss I can't see how DKs are going to be at much of a disadvantage compared to other tanks in survivability, unless you're ignoring my numbers in the previous post and still imagining that block does something useful.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warwench View Post
    it does not double SBV.

    it doubles the block value from jewelery, trinkets, armor and capes.

    Most Warriors do not choose to have block value on those items because as a itemization stat, BV is useless, it doesn't scale. Our 4 piece T8 has about 166 SBV on it, so double that to 332, still useless. if we could trade that 166 for 166 points in more useful stats we would. double a useless stat is still a useless stat in this case... until they fix block. By the way, we also have to use a second useless stat just to make the first one work, block rating. SBV is also useless against magic damage.

    also, armor scales.

    It reduces damage by a %, so the amount reduced on a big hit is more than a small hit. blocking doesnt, if i block for 2K on a 2K hit, yay no damage, if i block for 2K on a 25K hit, yeah still taking 23K damage. On large slow melee hits, Armor > Blocking.

    Agree armor > blocking, but the thing that misses a lot of you lately is the fact that what 3.2 is about to give DK's is

    Similar health, Similar Armor to worse armor in some cases and no avoidance gain, that is bothersome since than you have basically created a warrior tank without block value and called it even, ( which is where DK's are looking like they are headed right now, you need to get over your hatred towards DK's in general and actually see that if these changes go thru DK's are going to end up being worse than warriors have ever been in this expansion. Think of them as the new warrior tank but since block is shitty we remove it for DKs totally and call it even and put all other tanking stats even. In that case you can not claim blocking isnt worth something.

    So this totally uninformed hatred towards DK's gotta stop. it is really simple math folks Same health Same armor same avoidance but lack of block yeah i think DK's get it they are supposed to be a shitty tank and that you hate them for having taken your MT job from Ragnaros in MC
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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