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Thread: On Time for raids? probably not... QQ

  1. #1
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    On Time for raids? probably not... QQ

    I want to start this topic and maybe figure out a better way to get people to:

    A. show up on time for raids/show up at all.
    B. Understand that the item will drop again and to not QQ about it, instead /cheer the person.
    C. What to do with the people that don't get invited to the raid.

    My guild:
    we raid monday-thrusday 25m's and then friday-sunday 10m's
    During the week attendance can eb hit or miss.

    When we down new bosses and someoen wins the loot. a lot of people QQ. so i almost refuse to even try to upgrade because i rather not deal with the drama. I've GM ticketed maybe 6 items i've won to other guildies so i can win the respect and to keep them from crying. (everyone in the guidl is over 18)

    Lastly what do i do with those that show up late and or are one time but don't get invited to the raid..

    Guild system: 25m's the highest rank gets invited first then go downward.
    25m naxx starts with recruits and goes upward. (still full clear in less then 4 hours)
    Loot is "open rolls" and DKP where dkp>roll (also its a hidden bid in a pst to the raidleader. and you can only bid once. so you bid the amount = to how bad you want the item.)

    DKP is awarded by showing up on time and finishing the raid when called. also new content awards dkp.

    Looking for to hearing what your guild does!

  2. #2
    I don't get why people QQ if you have a DKP system.

    They got the chance to bid on the item and if they didn't win it's their fault.

  3. #3
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    They feel like its a smaller upgrade for me so i should have not bidded on it. lol makes me want to g kick sometimes. I have the pulse shield from 10m ulduar and have enough dkp to out bid anyone for the voice of reason shield from kt. but i don't

  4. #4
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    A) Fine them DKP for being late, kick them if they keep not showing up, theyre wasting 24 other peoples time. 10 minutes late x 24 people works out as 4 lost man hours of raiding time)

    B) Tell them to bid more if they really want something and not try to abuse the system to get things cheap.

    C) Have them wait as standbys and award them dkp as though they attended for waiting on standby all night.

    My 2p worth.

  5. #5
    For 25m raids, invite 30 people, at least one extra of each role tank/heals/dps. First come first go, last 5 can go do a heroic or something. Something similar for 10m raids, whatever works best.

    Eg, change/add some punctuality incentives. Charlie Munger said it best:
    ‘Well I think I’ve been in the top 5% of my age cohort all my life in understanding the power of incentives, and all my life I’ve underestimated it. And never a year passes [without me] getting some surprise that pushes my limit a little farther.’
    Edit: another idea - invite 35 people, with the right class breakdown for a 25m and 10m raid. First 25 get the 25m raid, others get the 10m if they want.
    Last edited by Kurtosis; 06-19-2009 at 03:18 PM.

  6. #6
    Oh my goodness me. That kind of behaviour should have ended when they hit their teens.

    Start recruiting. Replace them.
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  7. #7
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    Change your DKP system from bids to simply static DKP payment with an item going to highest DKP. I've used a bidding system in the past and talked to hundreds of people regarding it over the years and it's always a drama system. Hidden bids = no trust. Yet, DKP is suppose to create trust and empower your guildies into feeling like they've got a bit of control over what items they get.

    Regardless, seriously fine people for QQing about loot and NEVER ever issue a GM ticket ever again. By giving into the complaining you are creating the problem.

  8. #8
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    Vene: i think the main problem is attitude, rather than point system specifics. Many guilds (mine is one of them) function fine under a bidding system; you just need to have the corresponding guild mentality to match it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truthbebold View Post
    A. show up on time for raids/show up at all.
    Reward on-time players more / punish stragglers. Which of these you do, and how, is up to you. Sounds like you alread have On-Time points, so either increase these or start inviting backups when stragglers don't show.

    If you have attendance issues (having to wait for the stragglers to log in before you can start), then recruit people who can find the login button.

    B. Understand that the item will drop again and to not QQ about it, instead /cheer the person.
    Get rid of the whiners. Your guild will be healthier in the long run.

    C. What to do with the people that don't get invited to the raid.
    I recommend a waitlist system for rotating people in.

  9. #9
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    I pretty much agree with what everyone says. Before you implement any major changes, just make sure your officers and class leaders have your back and aren't afraid to share the same fate as the rest of the members of your guild. Also, leading by example is always win. (i.e if you're late you may have to sit out yourself.) If your guild has a website or discussion forum, mention that these changes are coming and give an approximate date for implementation. That will allow everyone to get their QQ's out of their system and hopefully plan accordingly to meet your new, stricter attendance policies.

    Good Luck!

  10. #10
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    i think 7 night raiding can be a bit too much? (if they are all compulsory in your guild, for us we do 4 nights 25man and rest 10man which are optional)

    we raid 4 nights a week if any of our members can't attendance 75%, we'll just recruit more and replace them, however, we do communicate individually to members regarding attendance.

    About loot, i think static dkp is better like vene said, i've never liked bid (especially close bid), its clear who is getting the loot, no arguments.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by veneretio View Post
    I've used a bidding system in the past and talked to hundreds of people regarding it over the years and it's always a drama system.
    No it's not.
    Quote Originally Posted by veneretio View Post
    Hidden bids = no trust. Yet, DKP is suppose to create trust and empower your guildies into feeling like they've got a bit of control over what items they get.
    Since when was DKP meant to create trust? No DKP system will alter a person's emotional character and that should never be an aim for it.

  12. #12
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    I have never been a part of a DKP system I have enjoyed. Always hated them for the myriad of abuses that are inherent in the system.

    The best overall loot system I have been a part of was actual a random roll system with minor officer oversight. The way it worked our website monitored your past 2-3 months attendance and then you were given a bo0nus to your roll depending on that. So if you had 90-100% attendance you go an extra 75 on your roll(or something close, forget exact value), 80-90% got a smaller bonus and below that got nothing.

    When a new member joined they would be at 0% attendance and would have to be one for a while to get a bonus. System sounds stupid describing it but in practice it worked beautifully. The people that raided got the gear the quickest and people did not ignore small upgrades to save their dkp for big upgrades...anything that could be used was used.

    In cases or someone going on a ridiculous lucky streak rolling officers would skip their roll but that only happened a couple times over 6+ months.

  13. #13
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    I've worked within a DKP bidding system in the past. By this I mean it was more like a silent auction with bids and counter bids; as opposed to having flat or Null DKP. I found it was very vulnerable to collusion on pricing as well as fostering point competitions.

    The problem that I had with the system was that members of the raid would apply pressure to individuals of the same class in order to gain a greater share of the equipment that dropped. Unless the goal of the system is to alienate less forceful players in your raids I'm not sure this system can fulfill your needs. The OP's delimma matches what I have witnessed.

    I respectfully disagree with Ciderhelm's assertion that a DKP system is not meant to create trust. The entire purpose of a DKP system is to make loot decisions seem transperant (whether or not they are) and to prevent accusations of favoritism from imploding the guild. Only a small fraction of guilds will ever need or benefit from having the first few drops go to the right people as you can see from Ulduar progression lists. If your guild hasn't been able to down Ulduar (or perhaps even get past XT) you're goal needs to be preventing total guild failure due to arguments as opposed to worrying about who gets what. In these cases it is better to make loot distribution perfunctory and efficient by using a number system of some kind.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by minrog View Post
    The entire purpose of a DKP system is to make loot decisions seem transperant (whether or not they are) and to prevent accusations of favoritism from imploding the guild.
    No it's not. If that was the entire purpose of a DKP system, guilds would universally use /roll.

    Any effective DKP system is built on incentivization. It's not built on fairness, it's not built on trust, it's not built on any ethical or moral principles. Those things can be a part of it, but they aren't core to what DKP is.

    To illustrate with an example: Monetary currencies such as US Dollars don't exist for charities. However, charitable giving is often done in currency. This only works so long as people value the currency in it's primary role.

  15. #15
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    I agree with ciderhelm on that. i think i'm completely fair with my leading. the open rolls is what we used to have and once we got 25m naxx on farm and turningtide was dropping left and right. people would almost g quit because they show up night after night and worked there butt off to get 25m naxx on farm and then some new recruit comes in and rolls a 100 and got it. so we added the dps system and it works fine. but i wish i could get more respect and concentration out of my raiders.

    the incentivization that cider mentioned, is why we added points for showing up at the start of the raid and ending at the start of the raid. 1 point at the start and 1 at the end. worked great. but i counted wednesday night for our raid. we had 16 "core raiders" (guild rank) not show. so we made due with some new guys and still cleared 5 bosses in uldaur25m

    "just wish i can reach through the computer and slap people sometimes"

  16. #16
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    When we switched to a points based looting system, it did exactly what it was intended to do, ensure promptness, and ensure that people were doing their best to improve.

    Our points system is a little complex, but it is an open system. No one whispers anyone.

    The bidding is not exactly a bid so much as it is a currency/barter.

    Mainly it's a glorified EPGP.

    Where EP/GP = PR. However EP is not a cumulative amount of points that doesn't decrease, as it's original addon is designed. EP is a currency spent on the item. I use an equation to determine how much EP it actually costs.

    {(iLvL +25) * slot modifier} / 2 = EP Cost.

    normally it doesn't go very high.

    That EP cost is divided amongst those who did not win the item, and is taken away from the one who did. He is given the correct amount of GP for the item, his PR goes down, theirs goes up.

    It has worked thus far, and has yet to spark loot drama.

    The EP tables have been posted on our site for reference, so everyone knows exactly what they should get from an item.

    So far, it's worked tremendously well. I've seen DKP systems in the past that are based off of secret bids... they normally make for disgruntled, and as said, distrustful members.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciderhelm View Post
    Any effective DKP system is built on incentivization. It's not built on fairness, it's not built on trust, it's not built on any ethical or moral principles. Those things can be a part of it, but they aren't core to what DKP is.
    I totally agree.
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  18. #18
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    I'm in a casual raiding guild with a similar schedule to the OPs.. we have some of the same issues with people showing up late, and if one day noone needed any explanations on the bosses the Earth would crack open and split in half from the shock.. But we don't have QQing for loot..

    I see some of the DKP discussion above and I won't get into that. All I will say is we just do the main spec/off spec rolls and I can't remember any QQing in guild or raid. If they did we'd probably stop inviting them. I think the issue is you didn't nip it when it first started.. Everyone is build the points the same way, they all have a choice to use theirs or not.. if they don't like the decision they make then tough. If they want to complain to everyone afterwards hoping for some pity gear you don't want them around anyways.

  19. #19
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    Your problem with loot happens because you spend too much time discussing loot. Whether it's loot council, DKP or some hybrid once the rules are set it's done. When stuff drops stick to the rules give out loot and move on. Never make it a discussion. If someone is not happy with loot rules they can take it up after not raid, not during.

    A & C are easy to fix. The more you show up the more you get invited to raids. From the way you describe it it looks like you have the clique you take to raids and use others are fillers, however your some in your clique have bad attendance. Reward good attendance and punish bad ones. For example there can be a rule that if you miss the previous raid there's no automatic invite to the next one.

  20. #20
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    We got around these things in 3 ways.

    We encourage everyone to have a "wish list" published on our guild website. It makes them research their gear and their class and it lets others know that something might be BiS or a huge upgrade for someone else. It stops people from bidding on "minor" upgrades that might be major for someone else, and lets them know what gear they want drops from what boss.

    We use EPGP which in my personal opinion is better than any DKP system out there. just make sure you keep it pretty simple.. my rule is let EPGP sort out the issues. If you set it up right (pretty much as the guide/site says) then tell everyone to /roll for the items they want, EPGP will determine the winner.

    We see zero drama between this and wish lists. It's all very transparent, people know what loot other people want, they know where they stand in EPGP in real time. we see many many many occurences of someone passing loot to another player because it's on their wish list.

    To encourage people to be on time, our invites start at 8:00 EST, People need to be online at that time. First round of invites start at 8 and are done by about 8:05. once the raid leader has invited everyone who is currently online who signed up, he starts our periodic EPGP. those on time, get bonus EP. We then fill the raid with people who didnt sign up (but are online) and then those that turn up before our 8:30 pull time.

    so far these 2 items (EPGP, EPGP for ontime and wish lists) have made loot secondary, it's about killing bosses and progression now.

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