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Thread: Bladeward vs. Mongoose

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizana View Post
    So to you the best way to see if something is effective it to look at the 5% of times it preforms its best and say bugger off to the other 95% of the fights in the game? How many fights can you stand still and just tank at raid level content.. Lets see patch and X002. I dont think its fair to judge an enchant on just 2 fights, you need to look at how it performs overall in the raid encounters. And i will say once again, uptime without a parry gave you no useful befit. The absolute only thing the buff could do if it didnt give you a parry was turn a hit into a block. That is it... thats the only thing the buff can do unless it provides a parry.
    The best way to test a proc is a lengthy period of time where normal conditions(in this case being attacked and attacking) can persist without interruption. In a normal mode kill, he might spend most of his time in the heart phase. My log is of a hardmode kill, which has 1 heart phase and the only other inconsistency is when he channels tantrum thus not attacking, but I can still attack as normal.

    I still feel you dont properly understand the attack table and how a single die roll works. And untill you do, you will not understand that increasing your parry chance does not affect your other chances at avoidance
    I feel you don't have very good reading comprehension or understanding of probability. Nowhere did I say adding parry increased your chance to dodge or be missed. You are simply thinking what you want and ignoring my words. Adding parry simply increases the chance that you will dodge, be missed, OR parry. This is called avoidance, adding parry adds avoidance, it doesn't matter which of the 3 happens so long as it's one of them.

    @Satorri: The reason I am providing my info is in the hope that someone else will have some reliable data on mongoose to share so we can get an idea of how they each compare in order to make a more informed decision on this topic instead of just guessing. I can try to get mongoose on a weapon and use it next week to get some numbers to compare to Blade Ward. I don't really trust myself at this point to judge the differences between the two, however.

  2. #22
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    Ok I just did a full spreadsheet to insert values. Assuming Mongoose has a 40% uptime and bladeward a 17% uptime. They are roughly equal and bladeward comes out ahead by .15% total avoidance. Again those are assumed valies once we get some parses to compare we can average the uptime from boss fights and get a legitimate difference.
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  3. #23
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    Nice, but the "full spreadsheet" is less helpful when it's not transparent. =)


    Care to share some of the math?
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  4. #24
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    I feel you don't have very good reading comprehension or understanding of probability. Nowhere did I say adding parry increased your chance to dodge or be missed. You are simply thinking what you want and ignoring my words. Adding parry simply increases the chance that you will dodge, be missed, OR parry. This is called avoidance, adding parry adds avoidance, it doesn't matter which of the 3 happens so long as it's one of them.
    You keep viewing all avoidance as a big whole group, you increase one and you increase the effectiveness of all... but thats not the case. An increase in parry chance will turn a hit that would have been a block into a parry or a hit that would have been a hit into a block or a hit stays a hit. Thats the only thing parry will ever do because it comes last on the avoidance attack table. Do you understand that? If you dodge an attack while you have the blade ward buff up, you know what, you would have dodged that attack even if you didnt have the buff up, if an attack misses while you have the blade ward effect up, you know what you would have had the exact same miss even if you had never had a single proc of the buff. Your looking at an increase of parry as an increase in your total avoidance, and it is, but at best for avoidance you will be going from a block to a parry.

    Remember wow rolls that 100 sided die every attack and the result is laid out on your attack table. Parry is the last type of avoidance and an increase of that just pushes block down and a small amount of hit off.

    Lets use my exaple of the combat table from a few posts ago.

    Miss 9.00% 0.01 - 9.00
    Dodge 26% 9.01 - 35.00
    Parry 20% 35.01 - 55.00
    Block 20% 55.01 - 75.00
    Ordinary hit 75.01 - 100.00

    Now if we add in a 3% parry from a blade ward proc, that just changes the chart to look like.

    Miss 9.00% 0.01 - 9.00
    Dodge 26% 9.01 - 35.00
    Parry 20% 35.01 - 58.00
    Block 20% 58.01 - 78.00
    Ordinary hit 78.01 - 100.00

    Now the above two tables is what we will be useing. Now the boss attacks, boss attack rolls a 56, If you didnt have the proc up you get a block. If you had the proc up you get a parry. Blade ward did you some good.

    Now say the boss rolls a 35. Without the buff its a dodge, with the buff its a dodge. Blade ward did nothing

    Boss rolls a 10 its a dodge with or without the buff.

    Boss rolls a 72. Its a block with or without the buff.

    In fact the only time blade ward would do you any good at all in the above attack table would be if the boss rolled 55.01 -58 or 75.01-78. Any other rolls of the boss would mean blade ward did nothing at all. Now lets compare it to mongoose.

    Miss 9.00% 0.01 - 9.00
    Dodge 26% 9.01 - 35.00
    Parry 20% 35.01 - 55.00
    Block 20% 55.01 - 75.00
    Ordinary hit 75.01 - 100.00

    Same base attack table now adding in 1% dodge(going to give it a pretty hefty about of DR so you cant say i am biased)

    Mongoose would now provide befit at 35.01-36. 55.01-56, 75.01-76. So by this i hope you can see dodge influences more of the attack table, hence why you cant consider it all one big happy stat. Keep in mind the higher uptime as well and the fact that it provides armor, crit and haste as well everytime it procs, not just when you have a lucky rng.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Nice, but the "full spreadsheet" is less helpful when it's not transparent. =)


    Care to share some of the math?
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/5...tml#post241720
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  6. #26
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    To be fair, Lizana, statistically, you can't only look at the time procs result in parries to see it's uptime. BUT, i do see what you're trying to say.

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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizana View Post
    Mongoose would now provide befit at 35.01-36. 55.01-56, 75.01-76. So by this i hope you can see dodge influences more of the attack table, hence why you cant consider it all one big happy stat. Keep in mind the higher uptime as well and the fact that it provides armor, crit and haste as well everytime it procs, not just when you have a lucky rng.
    The dodge doesn't provide any extra benefit at 35.01-36. You were already avoiding the attack, and you are still avoiding the attack. Whether you add 1% parry or 1% dodge, you would still get benefit at both 55.01-56 and 75.01-76.

    There is no functional difference between dodge and parry. 1% parry returns extra benefit at 55.01-56 just like 1% dodge would, and 1% parry returns extra benefit at 75.01-76 just like 1% dodge. In both the 1%dodge and 1%parry scenarios, you were already avoiding at 35.01-36, and you still avoid at that range, so nothing changes. And actually, technically, adding the 1% dodge makes the 35.01-36 region worse, since parrying an attack is technically better than dodging. So you just made that region *slightly* worse (luckily you increased parry 55.01-56 to make up for it though, so it works out in the wash).

    Position in the table makes no difference at all as long as all the avoidance types are grouped together. It makes them functionally work like a group. Inserting 1% avoidance anywhere in that region will simply extend the region as a whole down by 1%. It doesn't matter where the 1% is inserted as long as it is inserted somewhere in that avoidance region.

    So bladeward would be just as good as a dodge enchant of equal % (Actually it would be better because 1% parry is better than 1% dodge slightly)
    Last edited by jere; 06-20-2009 at 04:42 AM.

  8. #28
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    To be fair, Lizana, statistically, you can't only look at the time procs result in parries to see it's uptime. BUT, i do see what you're trying to say.
    Thats why i am referring to it as an effective uptime. The buff being up with no parry during the time means for that time period as far as avoidance goes you would have been just the same even if you did not have the buff.

    And Jere, i understand what you are saying, and your right changing a parry to a dodge isnt that good of a thing, And honestly reading of the last post i made i am not even sure what i was arguing with that last part(got to stop posting when drinking). But the first part of the post still stands. The other poster had said the last thing he wanted to do when having the parry buff up was to parry he would rather dodge/have the attack miss. And the simple truth is if your not parrying when the buff is up, at most your turning a hit into a block. And we can all agree that is not avoidance but instead mitigation. Hence why i have been using the term effective uptime to show how effective that extra avoidance has been.

  9. #29
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    Not nearly enough attacks or data to be conclusive, but dug my old sun eater out of the bank that had mongoose on it. From auto attacking only against the dummy it had a 19% proc rate over 700 attacks. From attempting to GCD ( and yes i know these results are biased due to the short time, but i got bored :P) I ended up with a 45% proc rate. Now this is with just the rage i was able to get from outgoing attacks so i ended up rage starved quite a bit and was unable to use every gcd

    Wow Web Stats

    Note i am not claiming it has a 45% proc rate or that this is anyway a good test of the proc, just thought i would share the numbers

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizana View Post
    dug my old sun eater
    I am surprised you still have that thing.
    True Bonding Occurs when you wipe your raid and then your raid wipes you in return - Tarigar

  11. #31
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    Wow Web Stats

    Heres a much better parse for the Mongoose uptime. This was all single target damage. 3.5 min worth of auto attack and devastate (missed some GCD due to rage). 55% uptime

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarigar View Post
    I am surprised you still have that thing.
    It took me 62 runs to get it... its not going anywhere :P Of course i still have my quel as well

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizana View Post
    Heres a much better parse for the Mongoose uptime. This was all single target damage. 3.5 min worth of auto attack and devastate (missed some GCD due to rage). 55% uptime
    Now I know Crusader was highly diminished. Was that due to item ilevel of the weapon or level of the character.

    Would a higher ilevel 1h weapon reflect the same conditions?

    The only reason i state that is due to the some enchants suffering diminishing returns as you level(I also believe this is assuming the ilevel of the items are higher as well).
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizana View Post
    It took me 62 runs to get it... its not going anywhere :P Of course i still have my quel as well
    I think i got mine in the first so luck was in my favor and the respect for the drop rate wasn't :P.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarigar View Post
    Now I know Crusader was highly diminished. Was that due to item ilevel of the weapon or level of the character.

    Would a higher ilevel 1h weapon reflect the same conditions?

    The only reason i state that is due to the some enchants suffering diminishing returns as you level(I also believe this is assuming the ilevel of the items are higher as well).
    DR on the weapon procs like crusader was based on the char level using the weapon not the level of the weapon. This is easily testable by getting a level 10 sword put crusader on it and have a lvl 10 use it, they get full befit of it. Take the same level 10 sword and send it to a 80, and you get the diminished amounts from the proc.

    Also it clearly says it in the enchant

    Teaches you how to permanently enchant a melee weapon to often heal for 75 to 125 and increase Strength by 100 for 15 sec. when attacking in melee. Has a reduced effect for players above level 60.
    The proc rate isnt reduced on it, but instead the amount of the heal and the str is reduced for every level.
    Level 60 - 100 strength (full effect)
    Level 70 - 60 strength (40% reduction)
    Level 80 - 20 strength (80% total reduction)

    But from my testing of my Quel blade with crusader on it i am still getting 1 ppm auto attacking, the same result i got at 60 with it.

    So the ilvl of the weapon should have zero impact on the proc rate.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizana View Post
    And Jere, i understand what you are saying, and your right changing a parry to a dodge isnt that good of a thing, And honestly reading of the last post i made i am not even sure what i was arguing with that last part(got to stop posting when drinking). But the first part of the post still stands. The other poster had said the last thing he wanted to do when having the parry buff up was to parry he would rather dodge/have the attack miss. And the simple truth is if your not parrying when the buff is up, at most your turning a hit into a block. And we can all agree that is not avoidance but instead mitigation. Hence why i have been using the term effective uptime to show how effective that extra avoidance has been.
    Gotcha, yeah I am not sure why he would not want to parry at all (that seems odd). I would have to go reread his posts to figure that out.

    My main concern was it sounded like you were saying that the effective uptime of your overall avoidance is higher when you add dodge rather than equal amounts of parry, which would have been wrong. In both cases you increase your effective uptime of avoiding hits in general by the same amount, you decrease your effective uptime of blocks by the same amount. The type of avoidance that gets used changes for sure, but from an avoidance perspective, it doesn't really matter if you avoided via a parry or dodge.

    But yes, if you are not parrying, then hits get converted to blocks, but I am confused where that is applicable (I would have to reread the other poster's comments again to find out, but nothing comes to mind).

    Conversely, if the enchant provided 3% dodge, then when you are not dodging, you would still get the same number of normal hits and blocks as the parry scenario. You would also parry the same number of attacks as you would have dodged in the previous scenario.

    So while you only get a block->parry converstion in the dodge scenario, which is an increase in avoidance effective uptime, you also lose a 3% window of avoidance at the top of the parry window (remember we are throwing out dodge, and it dug 3% into the previous parry window), so that is a decrease in effective avoidance uptime, resulting in a net "no change" in effective uptime in avoidance. So nothing really changes in effective uptime between the two scenarios.

    Both types of enchants will provide the same amount of effective avoidance, if the have the same percentages. It sounds like from your last post you understand that though, so I think we are on the same page.

  17. #37
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    I got shiver earlier in the week and put mongoose on it. Tested on the dummy for 3-4 min and got a 40ish % uptime on several tests. Just decided to get blade ward on it and do the same test. Did 2 4-5min tests - first showed 30% and the second test showed 45%. Got it to 2stacks on the first test and 4 stacks (9.01% parry after DR for me) on the second test.

    In raids, the mongoose uptime has been 30-40% so far this week on tank/spank bosses. Goin back to 10man ulduar tonight and I'll see what how Blade Ward does.

    edit: Just tested it a 3rd time for 4min. Had good rage the whole time (good SnB procs) so I never missed a GCD. 48% uptime, got to 4stacks again (missed a 5stack by 1second). I'd be willing to say that Blade Ward has about the exact proc % as mongoose, but it's the removal of the buff when you parry that lowers the uptime on boss fights. Honestly, I don't mind the loss of the buff as long as it's doing decent damage. Esp since that would mean that the extra parry is helping force a parry while it's up. It also helps even out threat I guess, since you might be in a situation where that parried attack led to you being rage-starved.

    I'm using Procodile for proc data (unless it's a raid).
    Last edited by Dragaan; 06-22-2009 at 03:10 PM.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragaan View Post
    I got shiver earlier in the week and put mongoose on it. Tested on the dummy for 3-4 min and got a 40ish % uptime on several tests. Just decided to get blade ward on it and do the same test. Did 2 4-5min tests - first showed 30% and the second test showed 45%. Got it to 2stacks on the first test and 4 stacks (9.01% parry after DR for me) on the second test.

    In raids, the mongoose uptime has been 30-40% so far this week on tank/spank bosses. Goin back to 10man ulduar tonight and I'll see what how Blade Ward does.

    edit: Just tested it a 3rd time for 4min. Had good rage the whole time (good SnB procs) so I never missed a GCD. 48% uptime, got to 4stacks again (missed a 5stack by 1second). I'd be willing to say that Blade Ward has about the exact proc % as mongoose, but it's the removal of the buff when you parry that lowers the uptime on boss fights. Honestly, I don't mind the loss of the buff as long as it's doing decent damage. Esp since that would mean that the extra parry is helping force a parry while it's up. It also helps even out threat I guess, since you might be in a situation where that parried attack led to you being rage-starved.

    I'm using Procodile for proc data (unless it's a raid).
    From researching this post from the first time people have had it drop in ulduar all the way up to yesterday, your the first person i have ever heard claiming it to have a 40%+ uptime with a high proc rate. I would love for you to upload a wws parse of that combat data.

    As a side note most Bladeward procs from parses, the blade ward falls out without adding in a parry. As is example from the previous logs

  19. #39
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    As for my previous comments, I never said I didn't want to parry at all. It shouldn't have to be explained that I would PREFER to dodge/miss over parry so the buff isn't removed and so I still have the increased chance to avoid. I guess I should have said I would prefer to not parry until the last attack the buff is up for.

    The problem with your earlier posts Lizana is not that they are incorrect. In fact, that's what makes them hard to argue with. Its not new information how the combat table works and what you say makes sense. However, in this situation it is not applied correctly which makes it incorrect in the context. Basically you are arguing that parry is worse than dodge from a pure avoidance view, when they are, in fact, equal. (We are talking about parry and dodge, not parry rating and dodge rating, which is going to be different).

    It really doesn't matter what is getting converted to what unless you are arguing against parry in general as an avoidance stat. You also cannot say that the proc is useless in situations it didn't result in a parry without saying mongoose is useless anytime it didn't result in a dodge. Mongoose doesn't increase your chance to parry or be missed, them getting pushed up the combat table is irrelevant. The point to remember is that when you add avoidance through any means it's increasing the chance to take no damage from an attack. This extends to decrease the chance you will take hits multiple times in a row, which is the biggest selling point for avoidance. It's obviously a problem with the buff from this standpoint if the buff gets removed when you avoid, but even then, it being removed means the last hit was not damaging and gave you a bit of threat. The big thing to remember here is that avoidance is a chance in any situation until you reach 100%. Just because I didn't parry with the buff up half the time doen't change the fact that the buff was up and the chance to not be hit was increased.

    Some things to keep in mind while comparing these 2 buffs. (Some of it already touched on)
    -Blade Ward is removed on parry which makes its actual uptime less than what it would be if it was similar to mongoose. Mongoose continues to provide its crit/speed/dodge/'armor' benefit no matter what happens for the duration. This fact is going to make actual numbers for blade ward uptime vary drastically from fight to fight even if conditions are identical from week to week.
    -Blade Ward stacks, meaning blade ward procing anytime increases the effectiveness of the buff along with reseting its duration compared to mongoose which stays at the same potency and procs in quick succession will only reset the duration of the buff.
    -Blade Ward does nothing for offtanking where you aren't being hit, while mongoose provides some benefit. Hardly worth mentioning because this should not be a concern when considering an enchant but it is a big difference in how they both work.

    To comment on the last few posts, when Blade Ward dropped for our first kill of XT-002 and I tried it out on a test dummy and without any addons the proc rate appreared absolutely horrible. The other night when I tried it on a dummy it appeared much better. This was something I noticed when looking at the dmg done by blade ward after boss fights and it seems to be better now than it was closer to when ulduar came out. I wouln't be surprised at all if it recieved a stealth buff, but it also might just be my luck.

    From the information in this thread so far it seems like they are arguably pretty close. I think the one small change that would help blade ward's case is changing it to not drop the buff on a parry. This would allow more chance for multiple parries in the same proc hopefully making up for procs without parries as far as threat goes. It would also allow more opportunities for the buff to stack and help with avoidance. Regardless of changes, with upcoming tiers of raid gear hopefully being better itemized and thus having us trade more parry for dodge the effect of the proc should only become more valuable, even if the difference is small.

  20. #40
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    I would just like to say again, an avoidance only proc that caused no increase in avoided attacks was a wasted proc if your getting it for avoidance. Mongoose is not an avoidance only proc. Blade ward is.

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