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Thread: Bladeward vs. Mongoose

  1. #1
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    Bladeward vs. Mongoose

    I recently heard from a reputable source that Bladeward is basically a crap enchant and that Mongoose is still the thing to use as it increases agi and therefore mitigation by a good amount still. I was wondering if anyone has done any math to back this statement up as I've seen several warriors wandering around with mongoose on highend weapons such as Titanguard.

  2. #2
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    Mongoose provides 1.63 dodge pre DR, provides armor(mitigation), crit and haste and is still a pretty good general enchant.

    Blade ward provides more possible avoidance pre dr, but no mitigation and no threat befits unless you parry when the buff is up. Blade ward also has a worse proc rate and provides parry, and parry has higher DR than dodge does at almost any gear level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lizana View Post
    Blade ward provides more possible avoidance pre dr, but no mitigation and no threat befits unless you parry when the buff is up. Blade ward also has a worse proc rate and provides parry, and parry has higher DR than dodge does at almost any gear level.
    Still I have a higher Avoidance gain with Bladeward even with the higher DR on parry.

    This is disregarding proc rates.
    True Bonding Occurs when you wipe your raid and then your raid wipes you in return - Tarigar

  4. #4
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    I kinda said that with blade ward provides more possible avoidance. I never said that with DR it was below mongoose.

  5. #5
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    I wish Bladeward wasn't exclusive with DK runes, I could put that proc to very good use, though a fast swinging warrior or pally will still do better (faster swing with set damage on parry). It does require you parry things.

    I don't know who's saying it's not a good enchant, but I'm sure you can go on EJ (if not here, I haven't looked) to see an extensive breakdown of how it works and the effective buff.
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  6. #6
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    It has been this site saying it isnt a good enchant due to the horrible proc rate of the enchant.

    Wow Web Stats

    is the WWS parse, and this is from one of the people that likes the enchant so it isnt skewed.

    3946 melee attacks that could have proced blade ward
    121 procs of the buff

    3% proc rate

    And even though its a pointless number, the average uptime of the buff was only 7% of time in combat. That means for 93% of the time in combat the enchant did nothing at all.

    Of those 131 procs of blade ward buff, only 30 of them resulted in a parry happening. Only 23% of the buffs resulted in a parry. That means that for 77% of the time there was buffs, no damage was avoided. (dodge is before parry in the attack table, so at best it could have mitigated damage by it being a block)

    It was only 1% of total damage done by the player.

    13 of the 30 times the blade ward buff resulted in a parry was on trash mobs.

  7. #7
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    Lizana I do have to say I don't like how accurate this parse is. My proof is the XT Death was only 2.9M dmg done. So there is something a little screwy with this one.

    Here what I will do is take parses for the next 9 raids. Starting next Tuesday. I will post numbers from each parse. The numbers will be from boss fights only. Trash isn't where the avoidance matters as much (Also I could be auto-follow on trash and reduce the overall uptime).

    Player Attacks
    Boss Attacks
    Bladeward Hits
    Bladeward Buffs
    Bladeward uptime%

    I will also record
    # of Parries
    # of Dodges
    # of Misses
    # of Blocks

    Comparing all these numbers to the combat table will probably see what the enchant is really doing.

    I would also like to see someone with the similar tracking with Mongoose.

    It would be nice compare numbers to the combat table to see what occurs. Why I say 9 parses is because of flawed data like the XT death in this parse. Also it will give you a lesser margin for error and a better average.
    True Bonding Occurs when you wipe your raid and then your raid wipes you in return - Tarigar

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    Yes, i agree one parse isnt enough to prove anything... but this isnt my first parse looking at... in fact i haven't seen one parse yet that the overall proc rate is above 5%. The closest i have found was one that was 4.3% for a 3 boss kill and the tank was not in combat for the trash pulls

    I would love for blade ward to come out to be a great enchant, but from the current numbers its just not there yet

  9. #9
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    I would like to see a comparison to Mongoose if anyone is using it.
    True Bonding Occurs when you wipe your raid and then your raid wipes you in return - Tarigar

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    Most tanks i know and have parses of are useing blood draining. I will try to get the mats up and put it on my threat weapon and see how it comes out...

  11. #11
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    Also Lizana I did recommend Blood Draining to one of the tanks in my guild he is a warrior and has so much avoidance and a very low EH so when he gets popped he almost always goes under the 35% mark. OT
    True Bonding Occurs when you wipe your raid and then your raid wipes you in return - Tarigar

  12. #12
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    I'm not sure where people are getting such low uptimes from, but here is my data...

    Our first XT hardmode kill this week (1 shot, lol :[)...

    Blade Ward on Titanguard:
    Uptime of Buff: 19.2% (22 procs)
    Damage of Blade Warding: 14,465 (1.1%, 12Hits)
    Hits Done: 634 (counts everything as I'm not positive what causes procs)
    Melee Taken: 31
    Blocks: 42
    Dodge: 48
    Parry: 36
    Miss: 10
    Avoided: 56.3%

    Got Sorthalis after the kill and used it until the next day unenchanted so I don't have tonns of other data but I'll try to find some more parses. Also have to log in to raid but other parses show similar uptimes of 20%, Ignis was 21.2%. BTW World of Logs owns the other parsing sites by a massive margin.

  13. #13
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    Care to post the actual WWS parse of this? or WMO or WOL what ever you prefer.

  14. #14
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    Yeah, I was hesitant to at first but I guess its not a big deal.
    World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
    Is the details page for me on the fight.

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    I can see why you would be hesitant... but lets just go through your log file...

    Now lets look at the fights where you were using a weapon with blade ward... It wasnt just X002 it was Ignis, razor and x002.

    On Razor, you had 9 buffs and 7 parries while the buff was active... but each one of those parries was on trash mobs. Not a single blade ward proc achieved a parry while fighting the boss. This may be biases of me, but avoidance on trash mobs doesn't matter, so out goes those....

    Now on Ignis, you had 9 buffs again, but oh sorry for the rng only 2 parries when the buff was up. So that gives an effective proc rate of 22%. Note this isn't the uptime, this is the % of times the proc did something of value. So that leaves 88% of the time the proc did nothing of value. Now for total uptime just on the boss it did have an uptime of 21.2%, but keep in mind only 22% of the time the buff was effective, so 4.6% of the uptime was effective uptime. (I may have done this math wrong, if so correct me and i will update it)

    Now before you go rabid and say No no no, your wrong because the increased avoidance affects the whole combat table, so i still had use during that time. I will tell you whats below parry in the attack table that a warrior or pally can do... yep block that's it. As of right now an average geared warrior has no more than 1500 or so BV in progression tanking gear. So your going to save a whole 2.2k damage or so off an attack... Hmm isnt there another enchant where 2.2k healing comes into play.. but i will stay on topic.

    The enchant for 4.6% of the uptime of the buff gave avoidance that was used, for the rest of the uptime of the buff it just gave you an 3% or so increased chance to block. In your current spec you could put 3 talent points in and get that same 3% chance to block 100% of the time and get a chance to increase the rage gen chance on the block.

    Now lets move to X002. You gained the buff 22 times, 12 times you had a proc. You were lucky with the RNG. But still you only had a 19.2% uptime of the buff. 55% of the buffs were effective in granting avoidance, so for 45% of the buff time you had no effective gain. But at least it works out to a 10.5% effective buff uptime.

    Now i will say this, if your getting this enchant for the increase in block chance, then this is your enchant. Because it will increase your block more often than it will force a parry.

  16. #16
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    I'm pretty sure there's a lot horribly wrong with your reasoning, but I'll start with what you don't know. I'm not trying to argue Blade Ward is better, I'm trying to present my info so someone who has the time and Mongoose data can make much more intelligent decisions based on them.

    There's a reason I didn't mention Razorscale. Besides the how bad the fight is for this kind of data we were waiting for someone who had to afk unexpectedly, and so we were killing some Guardian Dwarfs. Plenty of times I had to stop attacking, there were multiple mobs and I wasn't tanking razor 100% either. Thats all i'm going to say for that fight.

    Ignis is another one thats tricky because a good portion of the time I am running from Scorches and so the enchant cant proc and the buff cant be used. It's not too bad but its hardly optimal.

    XT Hardmode is a fairly Patchwerk like fight for the MT after the first(only) heart, and so it lends itself better for this type of data. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that during the fight it also stacked multiple times before procing, even a 3 stack, which you are giving credit for 3 buff procs but 1 dmg proc. No one should even care about the damage proc over the avoidance if you are tanking.

    For me, the only thing I care about for tanking is the avoidance portion of the buff. If it procs and does the dmg thats just gravy and I'll gladly take it. You CANNOT just toss the actual uptime asside and say it was useless if you didnt parry. I view avoidance as a single percentage, as this percentage grows, the chance I will be hit multiple times in a row decreases. When I have Blade Ward up, the last thing I want to do is parry. I would rather dodge/miss and still have the additional parry up. But hey, if I do happen to parry I gain the added bonus of some additional threat.

    The point of the enchant is not to force a parry, its to reduce the chance you will be hit. Just like the point of mongoose is not to force a crit or dodge, but to reduce the chance you will be hit and increase the chance you will crit. If you don't dodge or crit in the time its up it doesn't make the proc worthless.

    Anyways, its really hard to argue anymore with such horrid reasoning so I'll leave it at that.

  17. #17
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    You do understand that no matter how much parry you have you can never increase the chance the boss will dodge or miss you? Parry comes after both on the attack table. If you do not parry when the buff is up, the only thing you are pushing down to replace a normal hit against you is a block. That's mitigation not avoidance.

    And i am sorry that you feel it is unfair to judge something unless it is tested on best possible circumstances. If you are wanting to justify the enchant on stand still tank and spanks, like x002 and patch, your fine to do so, but i would rather have an enchant that serves a use on every boss not just ones i stand still.
    I view avoidance as a single percentage, as this percentage grows, the chance I will be hit multiple times in a row decreases.
    Your right, this is how avoidance works, but from the testing and even your own parse, your not gaining much effective avoidance because the uptime of the buff in relation to RNG screws you over. At best your gaining mitigation(a block instead of a normal hit)


    A quick reminder on the attack table
    Below is an example of a base warrior without blade ward

    Miss 9.00% 0.01 - 9.00
    Dodge 26% 9.01 - 35.00
    Parry 20% 35.01 - 55.00
    Block 20% 55.01 - 75.00
    Ordinary hit 75.01 - 100.00

    Now if we add in a 3% parry from a blade ward proc, that just changes the bottom of the chart to look like.

    Parry 20% 35.01 - 58.00
    Block 20% 58.01 - 78.00
    Ordinary hit 78.01 - 100.00

    Now your right, you pushed off 3% of regular hit, but the only added result you will get if you dont parry will be a block, it wont magicly become a dodge or a miss, the only thing you are doing for the majority of the time you have the buff up is pushing 3% normal hit off the attack table, and the only thing it can be replaced with is a block or a parry.

    You can turn a normal hit into a block, you can turn a block into a parry, but you will never turn a normal hit into a parry.

  18. #18
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    Way to miss the point completely....again...

    You can only get reliable data for a proc like this using an ideal fight because adding in other factors like adds or downtime attacking things skews the uptime numbers in the report and thus makes them unreliable to even judge whether or not the proc is effective. If it is determined that it is effective in using a fight where you can have the boss attack you while you attack it for the greatest percentage of time in combat, it will be just as effective anywhere else, but less likely to show it in a report because of how the reports are setup.

    Adding 3% parry to 55% avoidance is increasing your CHANCE to not be hit or block. It really doesn't matter if its a miss, dodge, or parry so long as an attack is not connecting. It's not increasing your chance to block in any sense. All it means relating to block is that if you do happen to take damage there is more of a chance you will block than with 3% less parry.

  19. #19
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    So to you the best way to see if something is effective it to look at the 5% of times it preforms its best and say bugger off to the other 95% of the fights in the game? How many fights can you stand still and just tank at raid level content.. Lets see patch and X002. I dont think its fair to judge an enchant on just 2 fights, you need to look at how it performs overall in the raid encounters. And i will say once again, uptime without a parry gave you no useful befit. The absolute only thing the buff could do if it didnt give you a parry was turn a hit into a block. That is it... thats the only thing the buff can do unless it provides a parry.

    I still feel you dont properly understand the attack table and how a single die roll works. And untill you do, you will not understand that increasing your parry chance does not affect your other chances at avoidance

  20. #20
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    I'm curious, since nothing is done in a void, how the two look side by side on identical tests (as much as can be hoped for raid to raid), and a better breakdown or established/tested numbers on rate of application.

    Obviously every fight is different and has different needs/potentials. XT is an easy fight to mark as MT because you just stand there and attack (though the overall rate is not 100% indicative either since, depending on how your group is you may spend half the fight on the heart anyway). So, where is each enchant stronger? Is it cut and dry? I'd be surprised if it were.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

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