Greater Inscription of the Gladiator?

[Lulia]

There's been some buzz going around about DKs taking Greater Inscription of the Gladiator over the Hodir one for tanking. However, while the 30 stam is nice, I know that I would rather not lose what I have for dodge. Question is, which is more valuable to me at the moment? I'm supposing some tanks might like the PvP inscription after getting more avoidance in Ulduar. Without any buffs (including Horn of Winter) I have 23.77% dodge and 16.8% parry. I have 31.3k health. Which do you think would be more beneficial to me?

[Vanthus]

I gladly took the 30 stamina over the 20 dodge rating and 15 def rating.

The way I look at it is that Stamina actually has increasing returns while dodge/defense rating have diminishing returns.

[Lulia]

I gladly took the 30 stamina over the 20 dodge rating and 15 def rating.

The way I look at it is that Stamina actually has increasing returns while dodge/defense rating have diminishing returns.

That's a good way to think about it, thank you.

[Lizana]

That's a good way to think about it, thank you.

The other way to think of it is, Dodge is such a powerful stat they have to reduce its usefulness after a point, where as stamina isnt as powerful of a stat so you can stack as much of it as you want and we dont have to worry about it because it is a weaker stat....

[Satorri]

o.O Stamina does not have increasing rewards.

Dodge doesn't actually have decreasing returns, though the rating has diminishing returns.

They both have a linear relationship with your ability to survive, but Stamina directly influences the size of your health, or the size of hit you can take, while dodge reduces your chances to take more than one hit in a row. Choose the shoulder you like most, though for the itemization the pure pve scrip is more net gain, it's not a big difference.

[Esch]

o.O Stamina does not have increasing rewards.

Dodge doesn't actually have decreasing returns, though the rating has diminishing returns.

They both have a linear relationship with your ability to survive, but Stamina directly influences the size of your health, or the size of hit you can take, while dodge reduces your chances to take more than one hit in a row. Choose the shoulder you like most, though for the itemization the pure pve scrip is more net gain, it's not a big difference.

At the same time, Defense/Dodge ratings don't scale with anything, while Stamina does with talents and BoKings. I've started looking at putting 30 stamina on my t7.5 shoulders (I'm using XT's 25 shoulders atm) as a test, but the simple fact that 30 stamina isn't just 300 hits points is an aspect I need to consider.

As a blood DK, the spec/presence pushes 30 stamina into 349.8 hit points (ignoring rounding), or a ~16.6% increase. BoKings pushes that to 384.78 hit points, or 28.26% increase. I don't see 20 dodge/15 def rating turning into 26 dodge/19 def rating (28% increases) from talents/stance/buffs. Being missed is nice, but ultimately, being able to beat the RNG gods during double unavoided hits is huge.

The only good news is that this isn't an arena reward with a rating requirement, like weapons.

[wazdaa]

At the same time, Defense/Dodge ratings don't scale with anything, while Stamina does with talents and BoKings. I've started looking at putting 30 stamina on my t7.5 shoulders (I'm using XT's 25 shoulders atm) as a test, but the simple fact that 30 stamina isn't just 300 hits points is an aspect I need to consider.

As a blood DK, the spec/presence pushes 30 stamina into 349.8 hit points (ignoring rounding), or a ~16.6% increase. BoKings pushes that to 384.78 hit points, or 28.26% increase. I don't see 20 dodge/15 def rating turning into 26 dodge/19 def rating (28% increases) from talents/stance/buffs. Being missed is nice, but ultimately, being able to beat the RNG gods during double unavoided hits is huge.

The only good news is that this isn't an arena reward with a rating requirement, like weapons.

guess Insect Swarm - Spell - World of Warcraft and the like aren't familiar to you then. to put it very short. the more avoidance you have, the better additional avoidance get's. so in a way that 20dodge/15def rating does scale in raids, you just don't see it in your character screen.

[dagimp007]

there is a point where the stam enchant would be better then the Def and dodge... it is diffrent for everyperson cause its alll dependent on how you feel

[Hyperios]

This is very interesting.....

I think it may benifit blood tanks more than others simply due to veteran of the third war plus more HP = more heals from DS and rune tap.

Like everyone is saying i think the gladiator inscription probably passes pinnacle at higher gear levels where there is already an abundance of avoidance stats.

Personally, i was at 36994 hp unbuffed as a blood tank with the pinnacle inscription, 27.03 dodge and 19.50 parry, according to my avoidance macro thats 55.27% avoidance

Switching to gladiator i moved up to 37346 hp, had to switch from agility on cloak to defense to stay above cap (which isnt necessarily that much of a loss) and came out with 26.46% dodge, 19.50% parry with a total 54.70% avoidance

so gain 352 hp and lose .57% avoidance. (also probably lost a little crit and ap due to the enchant switch but it was agility so it would have been minimal for a DK)

I plan on using the pvp inscription for the simple fact that im blood, if i was still frost i would stick with the avoidance one.

[Satorri]

Good points both Esch and Wazdaa.

I do stand by my point that the total attribution of the dodge+parry wins on net value, the more important question is what is most valuable to your character.

Personally, I'm a blood tank and I stack health to beat the band, but I am frequently pulling rabbits as it were to keep myself uncrittable. The health is not as valuable to me for that particular slot as the dodge+def is. Also, if you are a scribe it is a no brainer, the self-only master shoulder inscription blows the stam out of the water. WTB scribe shoulder enchant for stamina.

[Monteverdi]

I'm a paladin and I use it... I'm not the most up-to-date on math and the like, but best I can tell it's at the very elast comparable to the Hodir enchant, if not more desirable in some cases.

[Hyperios]

I agree with Satorri, seems the further my guild gets into ulduar 25 the less i have to worry about defense rating as it seems everything is loaded with it. That is why I think that depending on your gear it can be better.

Clearly if you are are right at 540 with the pinnacle enchant you shouldnt drop it and have to gem for defense and if you are using a defense trinket you probably shouldnt either. As with most gearing its hard to simply say something is cut and dry "better" than everything else, its all dependent on your gear and how you play

[michah]

one thing alot of people forget is that, for whatever reason, resilience does in fact still work in instances. at one point blizzard had stated that they intended to make that stop working, but that change did not go live. resilience does work towards "defense cap" and it works better per point towards it then defense does. so keep that in mind.

[Vanthus]

Indeed the 15 resilience is actually a greater contribution toward being un-crittable than 15 defense rating is, so the dropping below 540 is a non-issue in this particular case (unless its also an IBF worry).

[Satorri]

The issue is that Resilience when you are at 540 def is completely wasted. Going over the uncrittable cap still gets you positive impact, and achieving the cap with defense gets you avoidance as well.

You *can* use resilience in PvE, but its value as well is rocky and quickly disappearable.

[Vanthus]

Yes I understand how Resilience in PVE works.
This thread is about a shoulder enchant with 30 sta and 15 res vs. one with 20 dodge rating and 15 defense rating.
You and Hyperios specifically state in your posts that going below 540 defense and becoming critable is a concern.

Satorri: Personally, I'm a blood tank and I stack health to beat the band, but I am frequently pulling rabbits as it were to keep myself uncrittable.

Hyperios: Clearly if you are are right at 540 with the pinnacle enchant you shouldnt drop it and have to gem for defense

I am stating that in a direct comparison between the two, that argument is not valid because the 15 resilience will reduce your chance to be crit more than 15 defense rating.

I do agree that defense rating has other value such as extra avoidance and contribution to IBF and should be considered, however, that is not what you guys spoke of earlier.

[Esch]

guess Insect Swarm - Spell - World of Warcraft and the like aren't familiar to you then. to put it very short. the more avoidance you have, the better additional avoidance get's. so in a way that 20dodge/15def rating does scale in raids, you just don't see it in your character screen.

I look at my EH/Health as innate to my control, with BoKings as a given in a raid group. Note that it's baseline now, which ensures it's almost certain to be present. At the same time, Insect Swarm isn't assured, as it requires a specific talent spec of druid that not every 10 or 25 will have included.

There is also the aspect that avoidance is generally useless against magical spike damage, where stamina continues to provide mitigation against dying 'immediately'. Giving a boss 3% chance to missing hitting you physically doesn't improve your avoidance against a fireball. Mimiron's Plasma Blast comes to mind, as the additional hitpoints gives healers fractionally more leeway. (I'm ignoring DK - Spell Deflection given the class/spec requirement.)

I am stating that in a direct comparison between the two, that argument is not valid because the 15 resilience will reduce your chance to be crit more than 15 defense rating.

I do agree that defense rating has other value such as extra avoidance and contribution to IBF and should be considered, however, that is not what you guys spoke of earlier.

I think Satorri, Hyperios and myself all look at 540 Defense as being superiour to any resilience. That you can micromanage defense/resilience to remain crit immune is valid, but not ideal as you lose avoidance overall in the process. Crit immunity is all resilience offers. As such, the defense is a valid comparison, though the 540 cap is a baseline rather than a requirement with resilience.

[Hyperios]

That was my fault i missed going over what the resilience added, I do agree it does contribute to crit immunity but it is commonly overlooked.

Most tanks shoot for 540 defense even at early gear levels where resilience would be easier in general because of the avoidance it adds, while this small of an amount wouldnt be that big of a difference i would still prefer to sit at 540 defense even with the resil enchant.

At this point i would say its mostly due to people armory'ing other people for pugs and not knowing about tanking and secondly because crit immunity via defense has been engraved in my skull since i began tanking.

[wazdaa]

I look at my EH/Health as innate to my control, with BoKings as a given in a raid group. Note that it's baseline now, which ensures it's almost certain to be present. At the same time, Insect Swarm isn't assured, as it requires a specific talent spec of druid that not every 10 or 25 will have included.

There is also the aspect that avoidance is generally useless against magical spike damage, where stamina continues to provide mitigation against dying 'immediately'. Giving a boss 3% chance to missing hitting you physically doesn't improve your avoidance against a fireball. Mimiron's Plasma Blast comes to mind, as the additional hitpoints gives healers fractionally more leeway. (I'm ignoring DK - Spell Deflection given the class/spec requirement.)

my answers was just to your 'dodge/parry/defense rating don't scale in raid' which is wrong. i don't make a judgement about which enchant is better bc they both serve different purpouse.
in 10man the debuff might not be there always, but neither is bok. but in 25 it's always there if no boomkin, there still is a hunters pet.

I think Satorri, Hyperios and myself all look at 540 Defense as being superiour to any resilience. That you can micromanage defense/resilience to remain crit immune is valid, but not ideal as you lose avoidance overall in the process. Crit immunity is all resilience offers. As such, the defense is a valid comparison, though the 540 cap is a baseline rather than a requirement with resilience.

this is just beyond me, on one side you proclaim the superiority of 30stam>20dodge/15defense or EH>avoidance (which when looking at it in the term of budget allocated to gems is a bad trade off 24sta=16def=16dodge, making 20dodge/15def>30sta) and at the other side you say you shouldn't rely on resilience to get crit immune bc you lose avoidance in the proces or avoidance>EH.

either you go for EH and make use of that resilience stacking as much stam as possible and as little defense rating as need.

or you go for avoidance/balanced set and you don't take resilience to start with bc it's a waste of item budget.

[Esch]

my answers was just to your 'dodge/parry/defense rating don't scale in raid' which is wrong. i don't make a judgement about which enchant is better bc they both serve different purpouse.
in 10man the debuff might not be there always, but neither is bok. but in 25 it's always there if no boomkin, there still is a hunters pet.

*facepalm* Why do I suspect said hunter's pet will also be a 51pt BM Spec exotic pet? Frankly, BoKings can be assumed in a 10 man as it requires a single class to be present, regardless of spec. You can assume a druid or hunter will be in a 10 man, but you can't assume how they're spent talent points. (If you get nitpicky, a lot of talented buffs/debuffs have a similar but baseline versions. Warlock Curse of Elements, for example, is a baseline version of boomkin's Earth and Moon and unholy DK's Ebonplague Bringer)


[quotethis is just beyond me, on one side you proclaim the superiority of 30stam>20dodge/15defense or EH>avoidance (which when looking at it in the term of budget allocated to gems is a bad trade off 24sta=16def=16dodge, making 20dodge/15def>30sta) and at the other side you say you shouldn't rely on resilience to get crit immune bc you lose avoidance in the proces or avoidance>EH.[/quote]

By that logic, a gem with 16 parry rating is equal to 24 stamina, as that's how the gems are budget. Reality is gems are continuing the pattern set up in BC, and they aren't budgeted as gear is currently. There is also diminishing returns on dodge, where stamina doesn't.

I also didn't say you should rely on resilience to get crit immune - I said it's not ideal as you're giving up avoidance. You can be crit immune without avoidance, but you're going to take significantly more hits as a result.

either you go for EH and make use of that resilience stacking as much stam as possible and as little defense rating as need.

or you go for avoidance/balanced set and you don't take resilience to start with bc it's a waste of item budget.

EH relies on health, avoidance and mitigation. Magical EH relies on... health. The commonality of health (hitpoints, stamina, etc.) is why stacking stamina is often employed. I'm not supporting that you ignore defense/avoidance, but realize that you can get to a solid level of avoidance and just start stacking health. I can see someone getting a lot of health, but the sheer lack of avoidance means that you'll take significantly more hits and be reliant on healers keeping you alive.