Sweet, glad that helped. =)
Just wanna say thanks for all the input, I respec'd and also used my Blood Tap / ERW when I was sitting around with nothing to do. I was managing to pull between 7.5k - 9/10k threat last night
The message is not to never DnD as Frost, it's that Morbidity can easily be a waste (not that people don't take it, and sometimes use it) as Frost. You will not DC, FS is a much better spend of your RP. So all Morbidity will do is allow you to DnD on CD. That is not (always/often) the best way to spend your runes and *not* your best potential for threat, per se. It is your next highest threat ability, I assume you've identified and are not just guessing, because you use it often? Glyphed even?
Quick question with math to follow, how much does your DnD hit for, and how much does your HB and BB hit for?
(If your setup is strong, DnD will usually be the same or slightly more threat, but spread over 10 sec, while using your other moves will get you a big burst of threat along with almost double the RP)
All of this data is from the group of 3 dummies at Ebon Hold, one disease (frost fever) with glyphed DnD.
DnD ticks for (no FF): 855
DnD ticks for: 985
HB hits for: 5300
HB crits for: 12000 (3 crits)
BB hits for: 2250
BB crits for: 3100 (1 crit)
The reason I say DnD is the most threat next to RS, is because of the 10 sec spread. The DnD > HB (glyphed with deathchill) open gives a very nice threat lead over the DPS. Then while your waiting for the next HB, DnD is still ticking building up threat.
Oh, and I only use DnD once per pack. I took Morbidity for no downtime in between pulls, seeing as how i use it as an AoE only setup.
Last edited by Antemortem; 06-14-2009 at 02:02 PM.
I'm a big fan of HB glyph -> BB too. I kinda miss Frost and that spec with my current setup.
The DK tank site: pwnwear.com.
So from your numbers, if you get no crits from HB, BB, or DnD (though you have a much better chance of being able to crit HB than the rest, especially if you force it on the open with Deathchill):
DnD (=BFU) = 9850 dmg total (38.8k threat) over 10 sec, gens 15 rp, and puts 3 runes on instant 10 sec CD (8.5 sec to spend 3 runes leftover is blackout).
HB (FU) + BB (B) = 7550 dmg total (15.7k threat) in 2 CDs or 1.5 sec, gens 25 rp (30 with CotG), and staggers the rune CDs (7 sec to cast your remaining 3 runes, leftover is blackout)
(Bear in mind I'm not advocating always one over the other, just want numbers to be clear for those considering the values) So, DnD is a lot more threat directly for the cast, though the value is decreased by 10% for every tick the target misses by not being in DnD (for walking into or out of it). DnD generates less RP and gives you one more CD in blackout if everything is ideal (latency eats CDs). HB+BB delivers a bit less than 50% of that threat, but does it in the first 1.5 sec that DnD would be ticking. It generates twice as much RP depending on your spec, and gives you one less CD in blackout.
The nuance is usually logistics of movement and positioning, how you apply things, and the big-money item: timing. I've been meaning to write up a short essay on this, as it applies to both healing and tanking, but most of the time WHEN the threat (heals) are delivered is more important than the average you run overall.
If you glyph HB, how's this for powerhouse AoE threat (and a fat blackout): DnD, HB, BB, Blood Tap+BB, /laugh. In the first 4 casts, 6 secs of GCD, you get 43.6j threat (with 4 ticks of DnD still to go), 55 RP (talented) to turn into fat FS's, and it'll hit unlimited targets in a 10 yrd footprint.
I'm a little surprised your BB's are so big, I'm not sure what that is from as Frost, I haven't seen BB's that big with Unholy or Blood.
For groups that have high health (and they'll be alive long enough to care), I also like to open up with PS and Pest, and then keep both diseases rolling on all the mobs for the entire fight with Pest. I have the Pestilence glyph to make this convenient on my current target; no worrying on if I hit them all that way. But that's more of a preference thing, and may not actually be absolute-max threat. Good enough for my purposes, though.
Always important to keep that in mind: the need for initial threat often trumps the tradeoff for max long-term threat.WHEN the threat (heals) are delivered is more important than the average you run overall.
k im no mathematician but im sure in this case since it sounds good and ive tested it and it works well, the numbers should be good too.
Best opening threat gen:
deathchill, dnd, hb (with glyph of hb), blood tap, ps, erw, ob, ob, bs, bs, frost strikes with rune strikes mixed in when procced
also in regards to the runic power problem, have u got glyph of icy touch? didnt check ur spec but if u dont have chill of the grave for more runic power production thats half ur problem, sob works well too, also for frost tank rotation i find only one point is need in epidemic, been frost since day one.
Last edited by Tankkin; 06-16-2009 at 08:44 AM. Reason: single target opener that is btw!
While I admit that D&D>HB>BB>BT>BB is a pretty huge chunk of burst threat to dump on a pack, am I the only one for whom it seems kind of overkill? I'm leery about using that many cd right at the beginning of the pull, especially so many of the cds (like D&D) that I rely on having in reserve in case something goes off the rails (misjudging the range on HB or BB, accidental pulls, etc.).
On top of that, it's almostly exclusively possible on packs where all the mobs are present at the beginning of the pull and are reasonably grouped together, which are generally the easiest kind of group pulls for Frost in the first place. For pulls where the mobs spawns are staggered (the type of pull I find Frost handling worst), that approach leaves you without any of your emergency threat buttons.
I find IT>Pest>HB>BB rolling into IT>PS>Pest>HB>BB is sustainable, easily enough frontloaded threat, and still leaves you with your emergency buttons.
On a slightly related note, I'm a firm believer that the HB glyph is a bad choice for Frost tanks. It's somewhat nice for AoE pulls, but the single disease howling blast rotation isn't as viable a threat rotation as it is a dps rotation. It trades RP for more mileage from your runes and additional rime procs, which is fine for dps when you're trading one good dps ability (FS) for another (Oblit/HB), but for tanking builds you're trading RS and FS for more Oblits. Additionally, as a tank you won't have access to either the T7 or T8 dps 4 piece bonuses (that replace lost RP, and improve Oblit respectively) that help make the rotation worthwhile for DPS. Similarly, you'll be getting less mileage out of the T8 2 piece bonus, and either of the higher end sigils (Deflection or Vengeful Heart).
While I do sometimes save BT in *some* cases, I am not convinced at all by using DnD as a cooldown, first of all it costs 3 runes which means that most likely you won't have it instantly available when you need it, and secondly it doesn't have any direct (as oposed to DoT) threat which means it's probably not going to save you if you need threat as an emergency. What I like about DnD>HB>BB is that it makes perfect use of all your runes, while IT>Pest>HB>BB leaves an Unholy rune unused (wasted runes make me sad).
Regarding your side note. A 20 second single-target cycle with glyph of HB produces 120 RP, while the same cycle without the glyph produces 125 RP. I doubt 5 RP every 20 seconds will make a significant impact on the number of RS or on a tank's ability to hold aggro, and the 5 RP are easily compensated by using HB/OB instead of IT+PS. I don't have the math handy, but I can say from experience that getting the glyph (I ditched the glyph of RS) did not decrease my single-target threat noticeably but it did make trash pulls much easier, faster and more fun.
In the end I think it's a choice of play-styles, because I really don't think there's enough evidence to state the glyph of HB is bad for tanking, and I personally love my glyph because it makes trash a bit more fun (less of a PITA?) and it allows me to pay less attention on my diseases and more on other elements.
There are 3 common rotations with the glyph of HB: the single-disease rotation which ommits PS in favor of a smoother rotation (it's viable when you can still hold aggro in spite of the bonus loss in BS and OB); the double-disease rotation which relies on BT to get the 1st OB in the first cycle, after that it becomes a matter of priorities more than rotation; the double-disease rotation that uses IT instead of HB on the first cycle, and then relies on Rime procs to refresh FF, and also turns into a priority based rotation in the second cycle. Personally, I prefer the first option, the rotation is much smoother and single target threat is still very viable.
For the math: I was counting for Chill of the Grave, but not counting Glyph of IT, Scent of Blood, Butchery or Blood Tap. Double diseases for the non-HB cycle, single disease for the HB cycle. The non-HB cycle yields IT+PS+2xBS+4xOB = 15+10+20+80 = 125 RP (135 with glyph of IT); while the HB cycle yields HB+2xBS+4xOB = 20+20+80 = 120 RP. Did I miss something?
No you didn't, looking at it again, I had an error in my math. So admittedly, it's not a massive difference at 15 rp, but it's no utterly trivial either.
As for D&D, I think emergency button may have been the wrong way for me to phrase it, more like planned emergency (things like the group spawns in Thorim's arena) where D&D handles picking up the adds so much better than HB or BB, I don't want to have it in my rotation so I don't end up in the 15s gap between it's duration and the CD when I need it. Given that with BT, I'm rarely more than a second or so away from having a BFU rune combination (let alone with ERW as a backup).