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Thread: Frost Tanking Questions

  1. #1
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    Frost Tanking Questions

    I spent a while looking through the forums and seemed suprised that no one has actually posted anything a long the same lines as this. It's not like im new to the game and I understand the mechanics of many classes but this seems a bit odd for no one to mention it at all.

    Although I normally DPS I done quite a lot of research on frost tanking and found out the rotation / macro'ing rune strike to OB / BS and a proper spec (which im currently messing around with to see how my threat changes), but there is always a problem with my GCD on runes.

    I go through PS/IT/BS/BS/OB but then when it comes to dumping my runic power I can only get off one Frost Strike due to my runestrikes taking it all. This leaves me sitting there on CD just doing white damage which changes my threat from say 6k down to around 4k and then I can start spamming OB x3 and then it obviously happens again. I can't seem to find anyone else having this problem (unless its meant to happen) and it seems lots of people are worried about capping their RP which I struggle to do xD let alone have a problem with. Some feedback would be nice,

    Thanks.

    Ash

  2. #2
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    take 2/3 SoB and problem is solved

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by wazdaa View Post
    take 2/3 SoB and problem is solved
    I can't get on armory myself from this PC, I was just wondering where you would switch talent points from and too? and any extra tips you could give me to maximise threat?

  4. #4
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    The World of Warcraft Armory guess this is you

    for one bladed armour>2handed weapon spec so fill out bladed armour at the cost of 2handed weapon spec

    one option is going for a it>ob>ob>bs it>ob>ob>bs rotation making the points in epidemic obsolete. if that rotation isn't an option epidemic is a must have.

    D&D i'd take points out, frost has enough aoe power to not having to rely on D&D.

    so either ending up with Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft when keeping epidemic you could try and see if 1/3 SoB gives you enough rp and take 2/2 2h weapon spec but i think sooner or later 1/3 isn't gonna cut it bc of increased rs spam when you gear get's better so you'll probably might aswell just start right away with 2/3

    or

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft when skipping epidemic (has 1 spare talent point)

    for the rest try to FS as much as possible on KM-procs, but guess that isn't something new :P

  5. #5
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    This is a bit anecdotal, but if you check out my armory, I seem to be able to pull and keep threat just fine. Well... the pull threat could be a bit better but I often can tank aggro from the MT when I'm the OT if I just sit back and pull my rotation correctly (IT, PS, BS, BS, OS, FS, OS, ... (with Rune Strike mixed in as applicable)). I don't have epidemic but I do have the DnD talent. A lot of people say "AoE in Frost is fine without DnD all the time" but I have found from experience that having DnD when I need it is a great tool. HB is great for snap aggro, but DnD will help you get quite a bit in building threat on a group.

    Still working on a group pull rotation, though I'm thinking DnD, HB, IT, PS, Pest will work best.

    Edit: My suggest: Move the points from Epidemic to Scent of Blood if you find you really need SoB, I see little reason to discount Morbidity unless you don't plan on AoE tanking, but that's just me.
    Last edited by Chamenas; 06-10-2009 at 07:33 AM.

  6. #6
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    As people said, I would move some Morbidity points over to Scent of Blood.
    You can also use Horn of Winter in those down times to at least get another 10 RP, so that on the next rotation you don't have that issue.

    This won't solve your particular issue, but you could overlook the Scent of Blood and move points into Subversion or Dark Conviction too, or fill out Bladed Armor, etc. At least you would have higher threat the rest of the time.
    Last edited by Vanthus; 06-10-2009 at 07:34 AM.

  7. #7
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    Cheers for the helpful responses, I'll have a look into all of that. I'm not actually a guild tank, im a DPS but I'm used to tank things like Auriaya (due to the easy pull with DnD) and General Vezax just cos of the CDs I have (as our DK tank is currently inactive and we have no replacement). So I may consider dropping the DnD talent as like you said popping a DnD is really only really needed for maybe an initial pull and the extended CD wouldn't really make a difference.
    Also just a quick question, was doing some looking around with expertise / dodge / parry. I didnt go digging to much into the numbers as im not going to kid myself about knowing what it all means. But in simple terms. Is it worth gemming full expertise till the soft cap, or am I fine where I am at the moment? and with dodge/parry I get confused on which one is better and what I should be looking for on gear, I read that parry will increase our weapon speed (but only viable due to us having 2H's) and obviously dodge is dodge. But is dodge as good for DK as it is for a Warrior compared to parry?

  8. #8
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    Expertise and hit rating have the same benefit to tanks as they do to DPS for increasing threat.
    For tanks, expertise also reduces the number of times a boss will parry you, which is important because parry hasted attacks from a boss could kill you.
    Numbers wise most tanks go for the soft cap in expertise and the melee hit cap to get rid of all dodges and misses.
    Not being at the spell hit cap or parry expertise cap, are just risks most of us tanks take in order to have more avoidance or stamina, and are in many cases not even necessary for someone who is just an OT.

    What expertise are you at? You logged out in DPS gear.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiki View Post
    Also just a quick question, was doing some looking around with expertise / dodge / parry. I didnt go digging to much into the numbers as im not going to kid myself about knowing what it all means. But in simple terms. Is it worth gemming full expertise till the soft cap, or am I fine where I am at the moment? and with dodge/parry I get confused on which one is better and what I should be looking for on gear, I read that parry will increase our weapon speed (but only viable due to us having 2H's) and obviously dodge is dodge. But is dodge as good for DK as it is for a Warrior compared to parry?
    General rule of thumb is Dodge > Parry. Look around and you'll find that everywhere. Looking in some recent threads, the math behind it supports Dodge in initial avoidance bonus and after diminished returns, gear also seems to favor dodge over parry.

    If you're just an off-the-side tank, threat that you get from expertise may not be a major issue. Threat is important at two points: The initial pull and "down the stretch". The initial pull threat isn't often decided by being parried, or dodged (which is what expertise covers), so long as you have a decent hit rating you will be fine. This isn't to say you shouldn't go for expertise, but if you're only barely a tank you may want avoidance more in order to make up for the lack of hp you likely have.

    Just my two cents.

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    As I said earlier, I cant get on armory so I didnt know what gear I logged out in. Off the top of my head I know I Have around 18 expertise, 28-29% dodge, 15-16% parry, 320 hit rating. I have T8.5 2 piece and T7.5 2 piece, so my gear isn't lacking to badly, and just below 32k unbuffed HP.

    Im guessing its worth bringing that expertise to 26? but stat wise ive been looking around and I think my dodge/parry is on par wiht most tanks, and im over hit soft cap by 60 or so but thats just due to the gear I have.

    Edit: All my gems are 24stam at the moment aswell, and I also dont have 2% threat on gloves as an enchant!
    Last edited by Ashiki; 06-10-2009 at 08:43 AM.

  11. #11
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    I had the same dilema when I switched from my warrior to my DK, because I was used to using every single GCD as a warrior, until I learned to accept that frost DK rotations are locked by rune generation, not GCDs. In the end, you may have to consider the fact that frost tanks do have empty GCDs, no matter what.

    An important element is Rime/KM management. Rime will help you fill in some of the empty GCDs. You can also make a few tweaks to your spec that will improve your tps, but that probably won't in filling out your GCDs. As said above, morbidity is kind of useless for frost, because you don't use death coil, and you never cast back-to-back DnD, so you can place those 3 points into SoB for a bit more RP.

    Keep in mind a lot of the "I have too much RP" chatter comes from Blood tanks, because most of their rotations are based on spamming a single-rune ability, so it takes more GCDs for them to complete a rotation cycle.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiki View Post
    As I said earlier, I cant get on armory so I didnt know what gear I logged out in. Off the top of my head I know I Have around 18 expertise, 28-29% dodge, 15-16% parry, 320 hit rating. I have T8.5 2 piece and T7.5 2 piece, so my gear isn't lacking to badly, and just below 32k unbuffed HP.

    Im guessing its worth bringing that expertise to 26? but stat wise ive been looking around and I think my dodge/parry is on par wiht most tanks, and im over hit soft cap by 60 or so but thats just due to the gear I have.

    Edit: All my gems are 24stam at the moment aswell, and I also dont have 2% threat on gloves as an enchant!
    Your gear sounds fine as it is. Toss on that chant and leave it at that. No reason to replace the stam with expertise, to be honest, if you're only OTing.

  13. #13
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    I'm stunned this hasn't been mentioned yet...

    Rather than changing your spec, you can fill those gaps with the use of Blood Tap and/or ERW. Using these two abilities smartly can boost your threat and keep you from those awkward moments where you have nothing to do but auto-attack. That said, you should only see those moments in your first couple rune sets. If you're RS'ing too much otherwise you won't need to worry about threat.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    I'm stunned this hasn't been mentioned yet...

    Rather than changing your spec, you can fill those gaps with the use of Blood Tap and/or ERW. Using these two abilities smartly can boost your threat and keep you from those awkward moments where you have nothing to do but auto-attack. That said, you should only see those moments in your first couple rune sets. If you're RS'ing too much otherwise you won't need to worry about threat.
    *shrugs* I didn't mention them, but a lot of people do use them. As I said, I never generally have issues with threat as it is so I'm not bothered by a second or two of "nothing".

  15. #15
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    First, according to the frost dps post on EJ, you got a better DPS with a one disease rotation as frost; it should be true for TPS too. So you could sacrifice one of your glyph to get the HB glyph and use the frost DPS rotation (http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t59946-frozen_blows_frost_dps_please_read_op/), or use IT instead of HB. With this kind of rotation you dont need Epidemic so it's 2 point that you can put into Scent of blood.

    Second, when I am frost tanking I use FS only when RM proc or when I am at full RP. This way, I always got enough RP for RS or a CD.

    It doesnt really answer your "no free rune" problem but with a 2-rune rotation like frost, I think it's inevitable.


    About, it doesnt hurt, but I am not sure it worth gemming for it as frost; most of your main skill doesnt use it: HB, FS and RS. It's only good for OB and BS.

  16. #16
    i don't want to make a new thread, but i am a frost tank and was wondering which would be a better sigil since im already def capped without sigil of unfaltering knight, sigil of vengeful heart or sigil of awareness?

  17. #17
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    Vengefull heart I think; it's a lot better for frost DPS, so even if frost tank cant FS as much as frost DPS, I still think it worst it.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanorr View Post
    Vengefull heart I think; it's a lot better for frost DPS, so even if frost tank cant FS as much as frost DPS, I still think it worst it.

    I think you meant "worth it", but to give you a break down, Rune Strike should be your top Threat generating ability, no matter what TPS parser you use. Also, you are rarely going to be able to spam Frost Strike as often as you can spam Obliterate as Frost, which should solidify Obliterate as your second most threat generating ability over the course of any boss fight. Also, in addition to Rune Strike just eating a lot of RP not leaving a lot left for Frost Strikes, being in Frost Presence while tanking also doesn"t leave you with a lot of spare CDs to use Frost Strike on anyways. There is no way I could recommend a Frost Strike buff over an Obliterate buff for tanking purposes. Sigil of Awareness > Sigil of the Vengeful Heart for Frost tanking...

  19. #19
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    To the OP, it is also common in some rotations to have a 'pause' while you just auto-attack. The worst case is an AOE where you open with DnD, then use the remaining 3 runes, then have a wait afterwards.

    It's not often mentioned but it does happen, and it's normal.
    You can use ERW or Tap, of course, but if you can't / don't want to, ... you autoattack.
    The DK tank site: pwnwear.com.

  20. #20
    thanks for the input

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