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Thread: Death knight tanking

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    My rationale has always been, simply, if you need more threat when the boss is at 35% (i.e. you are 2-4 minutes into the fight) then it's just a bandaid for a bigger problem.

    For most tanks it will only amount to additional dps, which is entirely tertiary for me after survival and threat.
    yup my thoughts exactly.. although on trash pulls it allows you (like unholy does already most of the time) to untarget skull and move on to increasing threat on the next at say 30% life, it by no means should a staple to your general threat! by half life on most bosses you SHOULD have enough aggro to allow dps to go all out on him already and worry about survivability!

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    My rationale has always been, simply, if you need more threat when the boss is at 35% (i.e. you are 2-4 minutes into the fight) then it's just a bandaid for a bigger problem.

    For most tanks it will only amount to additional dps, which is entirely tertiary for me after survival and threat.
    Depends what fight you are talking about. On Hodir and Vezzax for example, due to the buffs the ranged can get, you need all the TPS you can get wether its 1m or 4m into the fight.
    This approach has served me well thus far because if theres one thing our dps'ers dont complain is overaggroing. Even those that use their 2 eyes to see the target and the other for Recount ...

  3. #43
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    I'm not sure why, but I don't have the aggro problems a lot of people (including my co-tanks) mention on Hodir. Granted our dps has gotten very good at getting me storm power, but that alone doesn't seem like it should do it. Maybe Storm Power just plays very well with my crit rate as Blood.

    Vezzax I don't have problems on, though that I can understand a bit better since I don't have to kite (yet) and despite the buff, the ranged still have to worry about mana eventually (plus they are always having to dodge the nasty Mark).

    Your point is well said though.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    I'm not sure why, but I don't have the aggro problems a lot of people (including my co-tanks) mention on Hodir. Granted our dps has gotten very good at getting me storm power, but that alone doesn't seem like it should do it. Maybe Storm Power just plays very well with my crit rate as Blood.

    Vezzax I don't have problems on, though that I can understand a bit better since I don't have to kite (yet) and despite the buff, the ranged still have to worry about mana eventually (plus they are always having to dodge the nasty Mark).

    Your point is well said though.
    It's just a gear / your DPS / buff spread issue. I've never had agro issue on any boss, but my point was that Merciless Combat is a nice tool, is a nice free chunk of TPS and DPS, and is something you lose in addition to better, really really good tools when you spec Icy Talons.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    I'm not sure why, but I don't have the aggro problems a lot of people (including my co-tanks) mention on Hodir. Granted our dps has gotten very good at getting me storm power, but that alone doesn't seem like it should do it. Maybe Storm Power just plays very well with my crit rate as Blood.
    I'm unholy and I'm not having any threat issues on Hodir either. I usually wait for Storm Power to hit me 1st time and pop Blood Fury + Pot & ERW to maximize my threat gen during buff. Having specced max into Necrosis and using RS Glyph my single target threat is quite ok (2nd T8.5-piece and the 2-piece bonus I got yesterday won't hurt my TPS either) in general and Hodir fight suits unholy in sense that Singed Buff boosts my SS, DC and UB considerably. This combined with threat lead time I get while DPS is freeing NPCs has given me considerable lead so far. Once our DPS get a bit more gear (I overgear most of them a bit) and learn to maximize the buff usage things may get more interesting.

    Unholy is supposed to be worst single-target TPS spec, but I'm really not seeing that at least yet.

  6. #46
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    Well if i get the Storm Power buff then obviously threat is not an issue. When i see my lead is sufficient i call on TS to whoever gets it next to move near a caster group thats on a light beam.

    The problem arises when :
    - At the pull they forget they're supposed to come to me as soon as they get it.
    - Due to previous buffs going to casters they start gaining on TPS and i forget to call on TS that i need the buff
    - They get distracted ... you know, 1 eye on the target and the other on Recount ...

    Apart from that, TPS has never been an issue. In fact in the previous version of my build i had that extra point in RPM and not MC

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackhoid View Post
    Unholy is supposed to be worst single-target TPS spec, but I'm really not seeing that at least yet.
    This is a long running fallacy that simply isn't true, and honestly never was in live.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    This is a long running fallacy that simply isn't true, and honestly never was in live.
    Never seen it either, like I said, but yet if you go to Elitistjerks DK end-game tanking threat you find it there in page 1 as an assumed fact: "Low ST threat - Barely enough in several cases" . Gotta wonder why?

    In fact what I've seen several times is quite the opposite; I was off-tanking Patch25 some weeks ago and MT was Frost DK armed with Betrayer and higher avoidance (otherwize similar gear) than I have and yet I had to be very careful not to pass his threat with my much worse weapon. Given how trivial fight Patch is for tank I don't think it was even a L2P issue either.

    VoA25 pugs I run every week often go as "let the DK MT as he's got better threat" when ~5k+ dps'ers go threaten pass warrior or drood tank.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackhoid View Post
    ...In fact what I've seen several times is quite the opposite; I was off-tanking Patch25 some weeks ago and MT was Frost DK armed with Betrayer and higher avoidance (otherwize similar gear) than I have and yet I had to be very careful not to pass his threat with my much worse weapon. Given how trivial fight Patch is for tank I don't think it was even a L2P issue either.
    His Hateful Strike also adds threat to the OT's.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Emi View Post
    His Hateful Strike also adds threat to the OT's.
    Wow, 1st time I heard about it; and since it said to affect 25-man only no wonder I did not know about it, I mostly stick to 10-man raids (IMO 25-man guilds are such a mess and 25-man pugs don't even warrant mentioning ) . No wonder it truly is an autoattack fight and thus officially the most boring fight ever for OT

  11. #51
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    Frost Tanking and Assembly of Iron

    I was wanting to know if anyone had tried using anti-magic shield on Steelbreaker, does this minimise the effect of the dot? or does it have no effect?

    Also I find given the nature of the Steelbreaker fight, Acclimation will give you significant magic resistance when stacked with the palidin nature aura (280)

    Here is my frost tanking spec. I find it useful for both AOE tanking and single target tanking (swapping BS for BB) in the single target rotations. Never have any problems.

    The World of Warcraft Armory

    One thing I might change is perhaps the icy talons for ravenous dead and epidemic... Note I use DS as opposed to OB to imporve surviability.

    thoughts?

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by HootyElune View Post
    I was wanting to know if anyone had tried using anti-magic shield on Steelbreaker, does this minimise the effect of the dot? or does it have no effect?

    Also I find given the nature of the Steelbreaker fight, Acclimation will give you significant magic resistance when stacked with the palidin nature aura (280)

    Here is my frost tanking spec. I find it useful for both AOE tanking and single target tanking (swapping BS for BB) in the single target rotations. Never have any problems.

    The World of Warcraft Armory

    One thing I might change is perhaps the icy talons for ravenous dead and epidemic... Note I use DS as opposed to OB to imporve surviability.

    thoughts?
    AMS makes Steelbreakers Fusion Punch damage negligable. The dot should be removed immediately before it even has a chance to take effect.

    Acclimation is only effective when taking consistant magic damage and is generally not worth the 3 points.

    True Knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.
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  13. #53
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    Hooty, AMS that Fusion Punch on CD, and let your dispeller know that it's coming.

    The shield makes the hit do very little damage and blocks the dot from being applied. Like Inaara said, it should be dispelled instantaneously or you can and will die very rapidly (on 25-man anyway, 10 is a little less severe).

    As for Acclimation, it is not particularly effective against sparse magic attacks (more than 60 sec apart), moderately effective against more frequent ones (30 sec or less), and very effective against anything that comes less than 18 sec apart. Against Steelbreaker it'd be fantastic since his aura will tick it up to a full 3 stacks before you even take a fusion punch. One stack is 50 resistance which is nothing whatsoever to scoff at, the tricky part is you get the buff in reaction to the damage taken. Can anyone confirm if it applies to the initial hit? If it does then I'd put it higher still in value.

    As for Icy Talons, that is only of value if you do not have a shaman with Windfury totem for you, if you do (and more so if it's improved), you can completely drop those points and Epidemic is a fine place to put them.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  14. #54
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    I find acclimation to be very useful. I often look up over the course of a fight to see a 3 stack of Acclimation resistance on my buff bar. It's definitely situational, but overall it's been worth the 3 points for me. I can think of several fights where it's come in handy in Ulduar. OT/Add duty on Ignis is a great example.

  15. #55
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    Thanks for the info. One more question does standard icy talons stack with windfury totum?

    Attempted Council of Iron again last night. Anti magic shield negates one fusion punch completely. Unfortunately we didnt have our usual priest healer so dispels were a little slow... outlook not good.

    Another question I know Unbreakable armor absorbs magic damage but does Icebound fortitude? or is this only physical damage.

    I only ask because we could heal through the first two fusion punches but the third was an issue.

    Also can anyone confirm if there is a chance to dodge the fusion punch (i.e. the inital hit?) I believe I saw that a couple of times.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by HootyElune View Post
    Thanks for the info. One more question does standard icy talons stack with windfury totum?
    Negative. For the most part, DKs & shaman provide the same buffs, thus they won't stack.

    Attempted Council of Iron again last night. Anti magic shield negates one fusion punch completely. Unfortunately we didnt have our usual priest healer so dispels were a little slow... outlook not good.

    Another question I know Unbreakable armor absorbs magic damage but does Icebound fortitude? or is this only physical damage.

    I only ask because we could heal through the first two fusion punches but the third was an issue.

    Also can anyone confirm if there is a chance to dodge the fusion punch (i.e. the inital hit?) I believe I saw that a couple of times.
    I'm not sure about dodging, honestly, but I suspect you could. I wouldn't rely on it in any form given the amount of damage you're taking with Steelbreaker up (his AoE damage, plus direct damage on you, plus whatever else Brundir/Runemaster are tossing out).

    As for tanking Steelbreaker, IBF does work on Fusion Punch (or any other magical effect). I try to run AMS for the first punch, IBF the second, AMZ the third, then AMS & IBF again. I assume my dispeller will be in the middle of a heal, hit a lag spike or out of range, thus I want to make sure that Fusion Punch doesn't slaughter me. Frankly, Steelbreaker is the kind of boss I think a DK should be 'ideal' for, where anyone can tank it - but a DK just has the 'perfect' tools.
    Last edited by Esch; 06-26-2009 at 08:48 AM. Reason: Spelling

  17. #57
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    IBF works on all damage physical or magical. For some reason I had thought Unbreakable Armor was only physical, but I may have been mixing it too much with Savage Defense.

    I am 95% sure you cannot avoid the fusion punch, however you can avoid the melee swings (and he seems to swing immediately after Fusion Punching, like he saves up his swing on the cast time). I usually AMS the first (and every 3rd after that), IBF the second, then pop avoidance trinkets and Mark of Blood/Gift of the Naaru after that usually with Vamp Blood. The avoidance has never caused him to miss me, but it does reduce all his other incoming melee damage after the strike hits so I'm easier to heal while the dot is dispelled (I have a dedicated priest who just spams dispel after the strike hits, usually I don't even see the debuff appear).

    And I agree, AMS is a huge benefit to tanking Steelbreaker, all other CDs aside that makes DKs a shoe-in.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  18. #58
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    UA has been tweaked too many times, it was 25% armor, then got changed to 5% physical damage, then got changed to full dmg reduction based on armor.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Molohk View Post
    UA has been tweaked too many times, it was 25% armor, then got changed to 5% physical damage, then got changed to full dmg reduction based on armor.
    Currently based on 26k armor it absorbs 1400 dmg per hit or 1680 with glyph.

    Added bonus is currently with the armor benifit (shaman crits etc) it absorbs ~2k per hit.

  20. #60
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    If you are doing Steelbreaker last and still having a problem with Fusion punch, Unholy with Spell Deflection/VoTW/Magic Supression is really your best bet for maximum mit. Agro is a total non factor, survival is the key, and by 10-20% his 60,000 damage rune punches are shaved down fast with the additional percentages.
    If you are doing Steelbreaker first, really blood should be your optimal spec, glyphed with Vamp Blood. AMS - IBF - Vamp - AMS - IBF should take you to Steelbreaker being damned close to dead. If it's really an issue you can use an avoidance trinket or two and Army of the Dead an additional rune punch which allows another cooldown reset. At the end of the day though, your healers just need to get better if it's causing consistent tank death.

    Acclimation still isn't worth it. Rune Punch can't miss, Acclimation only helps with his aura damage or rune punch ticks (which should NEVER happen in any scenario), and Unbreakable Armor is still an absolutely awful tanking cooldown. Guile of Gorefiend doesn't make up for WoTN and Vamp. Blood, or Magic Suppression and Bone Shield.

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