Death knight tanking

[Nibbs111x]

Aah good point on the spell deflection slackhoid but also don't forget that it only lasts 7 seconds (glyphed) and has a 45 second cooldown where as amz has a much longer one. As for the parry, rune of swordshattering does wonders along with some enchants and minor gearing changes. Also some gems are just for fillers (got the 16 dodge gems for red atm lol)

Well either way, back to pure unholy tanking for now (it's what i know best) until i figure out what would work out best =p

[Satorri]

Careful Nibbs, AMS lasts 5 sec (7 sec glyphed) with a 45 sec CD, Spell Deflection is passive and always available.

Slack, Spell Deflection wasn't particularly nerfed, the typical well-geared DK dropped from about 30% to parry to 20%, and the damage reduction was increased from 30% to 45%. It's the same coverage. And while you're right that you can't rely on it to cover EVERY major magic hit, possibly including one that might kill you (AMS is handy for that), it is a HUGE value when it triggers, and it is more than a little. Simple example, Frozen Blows. Hodir is going to hit you with five 20k frost damage hits every minute (actually a bit more than that, but we'll keep it simple). 20% parry chance means on average you'll catch one per chain (thanks to the random nature you could catch 2 or 3 in a row, though the chance is rather smaller). 45% reduction on a 20k frost hit is 9k damage knocked off the top. That's a very big save for your healers and not to be scoffed at.

It is situational, but the situations aren't so uncommon. Freya's Sunbeams, Mimiron's Plasma Blasts, Steelbreaker's Fusion Punch, Ignis's Flame Vents, just to name a few in Ulduar. You don't take it because it's a big always on deal, you take it because when you need it, it really can be a lifesaver. Though I understand that you don't like this kind of lifesaving when you can't press a button and know it will happen when you want it to.

[Nibbs111x]

Satorri, that was exactly my thoughts in response to slackhoid's post before me but thank you for explaining it much better then i have.

All in all i am determined to work this spec idea but for now i'll settle for a pure spec i know to be good for what i do and work out my gearing and spec along the way.

[slackhoid]

Slack, Spell Deflection wasn't particularly nerfed, the typical well-geared DK dropped from about 30% to parry to 20%, and the damage reduction was increased from 30% to 45%. It's the same coverage. And while you're right that you can't rely on it to cover EVERY major magic hit, possibly including one that might kill you (AMS is handy for that), it is a HUGE value when it triggers, and it is more than a little. Simple example, Frozen Blows. Hodir is going to hit you with five 20k frost damage hits every minute (actually a bit more than that, but we'll keep it simple). 20% parry chance means on average you'll catch one per chain (thanks to the random nature you could catch 2 or 3 in a row, though the chance is rather smaller). 45% reduction on a 20k frost hit is 9k damage knocked off the top. That's a very big save for your healers and not to be scoffed at.

I'm well aware that Spell deflection equals the same coverage, but I preferred the old version that procced much more often to mitigate 30%. Getting hit for big part of my health bar is not good for my blood pressure so I liked the "mitigate less but much more often" version

It is situational, but the situations aren't so uncommon. Freya's Sunbeams, Mimiron's Plasma Blasts, Steelbreaker's Fusion Punch, Ignis's Flame Vents, just to name a few in Ulduar. You don't take it because it's a big always on deal, you take it because when you need it, it really can be a lifesaver. Though I understand that you don't like this kind of lifesaving when you can't press a button and know it will happen when you want it to.

Maybe it is the control freakish side on me, but I prefer the abilities that are under my control and activated on demand so much more. I practically never take unmitigated Fusion Punch from Steelbreaker; Just chain AMZ, AMS, IBF etc. and it for some reason I have those all in CD I'll take it with Bone Shield and have spared runes to 2-3 Death Strike self-heals. This while keeping AoTD and Death Pact (I'm one those weirdos who tank with perma-pet) still as serious Oop Shait bottons.

Pretty much the same goes to the Hodir, chain the same things during Frozen Blows, wear 2 piece Fr + resistance flask+aura and Frozen blows are not that bad. Our small guild has been struggling with Hodir a bit, but that is more about bringing new and sometimes pugged ppl into the encounter; ppl take just way too much avoidable dmg from Biring Cold (despite Ensidiafails wall of shame ) and falling snow.

[Satorri]

Getting hit for big part of my health bar is not good for my blood pressure so I liked the "mitigate less but much more often" version

I'm with you. I remember doing Patchwerk on 25 way way back and being jittery for a good half hour afterwards. My low health warnings pretty much put me into a state of hyper-tension.

[Nibbs111x]

haha i definately see your point and agree with you slackhoid but simply put, i'm good on aggro atm so i think i may just take spell deflection and see what else happens. if it proves more useful then good, if not i only lose out on 50g and some gems right?! xD

[Rialév]

Hey guys, maybe this needs a thread of its own, but Death Knight Tanking fits the category for what I would like some input on.
I have been doing allot of looking around on specs & DK tanking since my main is now a DK. I came up with a build that I believe provides Max stamina, expertise & threat.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EGM0hcZ0LZbghcL0kghmocou

When I made this build, I kept in mind that a tanks job is to survive & keep threat...good tanks do good damage no matter what the spec/class with proper rotations.
I chose to not put points into Reaping since I'm putting points into Scent of Blood...I'm going to be spamming Runic Strike anyways.
Since 90% of all mobs & bosses in Ulduar are heavy magic damage, I went with Spell Deflection & Anti-Magic Zone...along with Bone Shield & improved Magic Suppression, well that's just a ton of mitigation all on its own.
Night of the Dead was a filler that I found to be extremely nice to have...between bosses takes roughly 15 minutes, so I have a mini shield wall for every boss.
We have an Unholy dps DK in the raid, so I don’t need Wandering Plague.
I took Veteran of the Third War over Rage of Rivendare since Veteran provides an extra point of expertise, & I'll take 6% more stamina over 10% damage any day.
IIT was difficult to pass up, but I figure I should be doing more then enough threat to really make it worth the 3 points.

Any thoughts, comments & questions are appreciated.

I've used a variation of this build in many situations. although I'd most certainly prefer to have 3/3 in reaping and 1/5 in Desecration. I agree that it does provide the highest amount of top end threat that I can produce. I'm not particularly fond of its physical mitigation, but it's magic mitigation is a good step up with both Magic Supression and Spell Deflection. Wherein I love to use this build in fights that have a lot of incoming magic damage over physical damage.

I'd have put this in a different thread however.

Though I do like the benefits of having points in scent of blood, 3/3 rather than 2/2 in dirge which grants per PS and SS, which you will be using pretty frequently with this build, I'd say that 2 talent points is a greater maxed investment over 3 talent points in your sub spec tree, which could be spent in dark conviction for a much higher threat possibility. Believe me, you're not going to find a lack of runic power with this build to not be using RS and UB.

[Rialév]

haha i definately see your point and agree with you slackhoid but simply put, i'm good on aggro atm so i think i may just take spell deflection and see what else happens. if it proves more useful then good, if not i only lose out on 50g and some gems right?! xD

If you only knew how often I respec...

And as far as spell deflection goes... I read this in my MSBT the other day while accidentally standing too close to a bomb I set. Spell Deflection 7548 (4587) Absorbed.

It's certainly worth it.

[Shake]

Rialév, thanks for your input, moving points away from Desecration really does make the most sense. I'll be using a new build based on it that will look a bit like this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft -- I've respeced trying a few different variations, including the strait up traditional Unholy build. I found it didn’t hold up to the hybrid spec on threat or dps. Magic mitigation, hands down over anything else...physical mitigation, it could be better...honesty, if your geared enough to be tanking progression, then you shouldn’t be very worried about a little less physical mitigation compared to everything else you get out of the build.

Satorri is right on the money with the Spell Deflection by the way guys. No, it's not 100% uptime, but the mitigation you'll get out of it overall in a raid night/boss fight is 3 points very well spent.

[Rialév]

I'll be honest and say it's a variation of the build, that I haven't tried yet. It looks solid on paper. For magic mitigation purposes it will be top notch. A passive 6%, and the possible RNG of a 45%, with 20% from Bone Shield makes for a great advantage over the other 2 trees.

I tried a full unholy build after 3.0.8 i didn't like it's performance compared to how it used to do. However switching to a more hybrid build with the 23 points in the blood tree to pick up Veteran of the Third War, pretty much ensured that it was a solid build.

[lyd]

personally my only concern when i'm looking at the effectiveness of my spec is the following:

a) do i generate enough threat to keep the dps from pulling
b) do i generate enough threat to keep OT's from pulling boss threat off me at inopportune times


(a) is not very difficult as long as your dps doesn't significantly outgear you and you are spec'd well. (b) can be slightly more difficult depending on the gear level and class of your OT. i was stupid for awhile and wasn't spec'ing into bladed armor, so my threat was sub-par and i was constantly being beaten on the TPS meters by other tanks, although i was keeping the dps at bay. after seeing a paly tank blow me out of the water, i re-tooled my spec, lost a little utility and a little mitigation, grabbed bladed armor, and now my threat is excellent.

so my advice would be to make sure that any spec you take allows you to accomplish (a) and (b) first and foremost, and then maximize mitigation second.

here's what i run with currently:

The World of Warcraft Armory

i know some people like to avoid taking Icy Talons because they can assume the buff will come from somewhere else in a raid setting, but i prefer to have it handy. i've used this spec to tank through naxx 25, OS 25 and Maly 25 successfully, so i'm not too worried about it. hopefully i'll be able to repeat my success in ulduar :P

[Edgewalker]

Careful Nibbs, AMS lasts 5 sec (7 sec glyphed) with a 45 sec CD, Spell Deflection is passive and always available.

Slack, Spell Deflection wasn't particularly nerfed, the typical well-geared DK dropped from about 30% to parry to 20%, and the damage reduction was increased from 30% to 45%. It's the same coverage. And while you're right that you can't rely on it to cover EVERY major magic hit, possibly including one that might kill you (AMS is handy for that), it is a HUGE value when it triggers, and it is more than a little. Simple example, Frozen Blows. Hodir is going to hit you with five 20k frost damage hits every minute (actually a bit more than that, but we'll keep it simple). 20% parry chance means on average you'll catch one per chain (thanks to the random nature you could catch 2 or 3 in a row, though the chance is rather smaller). 45% reduction on a 20k frost hit is 9k damage knocked off the top. That's a very big save for your healers and not to be scoffed at.

It is situational, but the situations aren't so uncommon. Freya's Sunbeams, Mimiron's Plasma Blasts, Steelbreaker's Fusion Punch, Ignis's Flame Vents, just to name a few in Ulduar. You don't take it because it's a big always on deal, you take it because when you need it, it really can be a lifesaver. Though I understand that you don't like this kind of lifesaving when you can't press a button and know it will happen when you want it to.

The problem, especially in Ulduar, is that wherever the Spell Deflection might proc, healers are already anticipating and healing for damage that never comes. Plasma Blast, Fusion Punch, Flame vents, Frozen Blows... they are all on semi set intervals with consistent damage and ample raid warning. You are rarely saving yourself, just causing a little bit more overheal on an already incoming heal.
Going deep blood, I would rather have Sudden Doom every time, unless they add a different style fight in Coliseum.

The World of Warcraft Armory

[Edgewalker]

personally my only concern when i'm looking at the effectiveness of my spec is the following:

a) do i generate enough threat to keep the dps from pulling
b) do i generate enough threat to keep OT's from pulling boss threat off me at inopportune times


(a) is not very difficult as long as your dps doesn't significantly outgear you and you are spec'd well. (b) can be slightly more difficult depending on the gear level and class of your OT. i was stupid for awhile and wasn't spec'ing into bladed armor, so my threat was sub-par and i was constantly being beaten on the TPS meters by other tanks, although i was keeping the dps at bay. after seeing a paly tank blow me out of the water, i re-tooled my spec, lost a little utility and a little mitigation, grabbed bladed armor, and now my threat is excellent.

so my advice would be to make sure that any spec you take allows you to accomplish (a) and (b) first and foremost, and then maximize mitigation second.

here's what i run with currently:

The World of Warcraft Armory

i know some people like to avoid taking Icy Talons because they can assume the buff will come from somewhere else in a raid setting, but i prefer to have it handy. i've used this spec to tank through naxx 25, OS 25 and Maly 25 successfully, so i'm not too worried about it. hopefully i'll be able to repeat my success in ulduar :P

They prefer to not take Icy Talons because it WILL come from somewhere else, at the very leaast 16% of it will, and taking it gimps personal abilities far too much. In your case you are losing out on Scent of Blood, Killing Machine, Chill of the Grave, AND Merciless Combat. You are also glyphed pretty poorly, Glyph of Frost Strike and Obliterate are Pretty Standard, and Glyph of Icy Touch is nice as well over Disease.
You could make an argument of some of those, but losing Killing Machine is simply a poor idea.

[lyd]

They prefer to not take Icy Talons because it WILL come from somewhere else, at the very leaast 16% of it will, and taking it gimps personal abilities far too much. In your case you are losing out on Scent of Blood, Killing Machine, Chill of the Grave, AND Merciless Combat. You are also glyphed pretty poorly, Glyph of Frost Strike and Obliterate are Pretty Standard, and Glyph of Icy Touch is nice as well over Disease.
You could make an argument of some of those, but losing Killing Machine is simply a poor idea.

well the problem is that i'm not running 25-mans consistently right now, and in 10-mans you're not always guaranteed to have a shaman in the raid. The 5% permanent haste is nice too. however, i am definitely still considering pulling icy talons out of my spec in the long run.

i disagree that i am glyph'd poorly. I find glyph of disease makes keeping diseases up on multiple targets much easier, and 10% crit to Runestrike is a nice dps/tps boost. I actually moved out of glyph of IT because i found the additional RP to be unnecessary with my rotation. in that sense, i find scent of blood underwhelming, especially since chill of the grave would essentially give me more runepower than i need to sustain my rotation. Since they changed Killing Machine to chance on hit, i agree that it is definitely a sacrifice that should give me pause. if i start running 25-man's consistently again, i will probably drop it and pick up the suggested talents. but you stay away from my glyph of disease :P

[Satorri]

Anyone who suggests that Merciless Combat is a vital tanking ability loses a nice chunk of cred in my book.

[Edgewalker]

Anyone who suggests that Merciless Combat is a vital tanking ability loses a nice chunk of cred in my book.

Vital no, a nice chunk of TPS increase where other higher threat classes receive the same boost, yes.

Anyone that suggest spell deflection is a good talent to pick up for Sunbeams and f@#(ng flame vents loses credibility as a raid tank in my books as well.

[Emi]

I currently run with 1pt in Merciless Combat in my frost build. By no means i consider it vital but its definitely an extremely useful "filler" point for TPS for the reason mentioned.

I wouldnt rely on Spell Deflection(chance of) type mechanics when it comes to survivability.

That said, i hope you guys lighten up a bit

[Satorri]

Sorry Emi for my part, it's easy to ride my nerves when people come in and jump up and down at how foolish we are for not seeing things the way they do.

At the end of the day, numbers win out, as do people who think for themselves. The community here is best taken as adivsory, as additional ways of seeing things, but the final choice is always in the hands of the player, and we have the good fortune of playing WoW where there actually are choices, not single unquestionable specs.

[Chamenas]

Vital no, a nice chunk of TPS increase where other higher threat classes receive the same boost, yes.

Anyone that suggest spell deflection is a good talent to pick up for Sunbeams and f@#(ng flame vents loses credibility as a raid tank in my books as well.

I specifically took Merciless out of the spec I use and I have NEVER had threat issues, ever. However, I use the extra Death and Decay on trash pulls constantly, which is where my largest threat issue has always been.

[Satorri]

My rationale has always been, simply, if you need more threat when the boss is at 35% (i.e. you are 2-4 minutes into the fight) then it's just a bandaid for a bigger problem.

For most tanks it will only amount to additional dps, which is entirely tertiary for me after survival and threat.