Last Laugh Drops: Goes to DK or War?

[Tatt]

Well I did a guild "gear up the alts" Naxx 25 run this weekend, and Last Laugh dropped. The DK MT is a dw dk. I still cringed when they gave it to him. I am not a tank anymore...in fact I am one of the supposedly mistreated dk's we all lament for. And I still say that dk's should not be taking 1hand tanking weapons over warriors and paladins. I had an amusing thought...what if a fury warrior rolled on a 1hand dps sword or axe? Their is no reason he cannot use a pair of 1 handers like in BC. I am sure their are a few idiots running around with some off the wall spec and fist weapons screaming that they can still do 2.5 k dps. Does it mean we should let them have rogue or enhancement shaman BiS items?

[Molohk]

Tatt, I agree with you, we all know LL is much better for a warrior/pally than a DK, but I believe that's a form of etiquette that can only really be expected to exist in guild runs. In PuGs it is rare to see someone pass on an item because that item is better on another roller. PuG looting rules are usually simplified to "your current spec is your main spec, and main spec over off-spec", this only really gets complicated on healer/caster items, but tanking/dps is pretty straightforward. The fact is OP was in that raid as DPS (even if his primary spec is prot), the situation sucked and that's why the ML handed him the axe, but using ML judgement is a very dangerous thing in PuGs.

[Orz]

I saw a people saying things simlar to: "Warshout was wrong for pleading with the ML to give it to him, and argued until he got it." To restate what I said in the first post, I did no such thing. I rolled after nobody spoke up for it on main spec, stated I was rolling for off spec, stated I'm normally not DPS (compare my gear for validation), and that I'd be happy to get it. I did, at one time, say I thought DKs DW tanking was not a great idea and that I'd put it to good use right away, but that was about the extent of my pleading. The rest of the raid argued with the ML and the DKs about it going to me as I sat there waiting to see what would happen. It ended up being looted to me, I didn't guilt trip anybody into doing anything. It was actually a resto Shaman that did most of the arguing.

Another misconception that I keep seeing is that I was there as DPS for my main spec and that the other DK for whom it would have been a supposed "upgrade" for there as a tank main spec. While the former is true, I was there as DPS, the latter is absolutely not true. As I stated, he was the THIRD tank for KT ... he was not tanking before then, thus he was DPSing. This means, although he did indeed do less than 50% off-tank duty during KT, he was not a main spec tank. Thus he was DPS main spec. The arguement it should go to him over me is a bit skewed. As I stated before, had I bothered to inspect, there's no way I would have let him be an Off Tank ... I'd have done it myself, and therefore the "DK's MS > War OS" arguement is not valid.

Additionally, he only had that 1-handed tanking weapon on so that he could meet the Defense minimum. Had he better gear, he'd have been using a 2-hander ... there's no doubt in my mind. He was spec'd for 2-handed weapons, so saying that he's a dedicated Dual Weild tanking DK is not a valid point. He was doint it out of desperation. And while LL would have been an upgrade, he would still only be using it to meet his DEF minimum, not because he spec'd for DW tanking, and in all odds would drop it for a nice 2-hander once he received a few upgrades in other departments to meet the uncrittable cap.

Because of the last two points, I feel he was using his Off Spec and taking a tempory side grade until something better came along to play as he was actually spec'd. Believe me, if BoH had dropped, he'd have laid claim to it through the "I've been DPS except the last 50% of KT this whole time, I'm Main DPS."

This goes right into something else I've seen people posting: "Warshout is looking for validation that he should have got it."

This is the last place I wanted this thread to go. I am not looking for validation. The point of my post, as was stated, is to present to you a topic for discussion which I think is appropriate in this day of Dual Specs and being able to Pug harder encounters than were possible 6 months ago.

The topic is: if you were the Master Looter, how would you have handled the situation? That is all that should be discussed. You can take that wherever you'd like to go: "Rules are rules," "MS vs OS," "Most viable and upgradeable versus suboptimal and downgrade," whatever. What this thread is not about is my wanting validity. I don't need it, I only wanted to see your opinions on how to handle these situations.

I think this situation brings about something I'm seeing a lot lately, and it's a bit concerning. The other night I was on my Hunter and we raided VoA 25. After Emalon we went on to Archie and downed him quickly. The Raid Lead, and Master Looter as well, was a Druid. Nothing for him dropped. He instantly handed off ML duty to some random guy, told him to handle it, and logged off. If you've ever been in a raid where a boss went down and was on ML, and the ML went offline, afk, transfered ML to somebody else, whatever similar, you will know that nobody but the original ML can hand out the items.

This meant that the four of us, the War, Hunter, Shaman, and Warlock that had items that dropped, had to wait for 2 hours until a GM could hand us our gear.

How is the Last Laugh topic and the VoA topic comparable? The answer is that as a Raid Master Looter, you have a responsibility to the raid.

Okay, yeah, I digressed a bit with my VoA example, but it's one more thing that I'm seeing ... there are a LOT of arguments, either in guild raids or pug raids, and you have a responsibility to everybody when you're the Master Looter. You can make a good raid even better through your decisions ... and you can make a good raid a horrible experience through them as well. You'll never make everybody happy, but you need to do your best ... and you certainly can't just ignore your duties.

There is no black and white when it comes to rules. I haven't seen a system yet that everybody in a raid agrees to 100% of the time. This is why the arguements I've seen in this thread that state "rules are rules, follow them or perish" are not very solid. There is always an item that can cause questions. There will always be people that skew the facts in an arguement for them getting an item in their favor, even though they know it would be a better upgrade for somebody else.

For instance, the DKs in the raid, and also in this very thread, that all state "Blizz is working on DW for DKs, so even if tanking is not optimal (or viable, there seems to be debate on that even amongst the DKs) right now, it will be soon, and therefore the DK should get it."

Somebody even posted a link to this proof that Blizz is improving DW for DKS. You know what the blue (Ghostcrawler) said in that post? "Next major patch." Did he say it would be improved on the next major patch? No. For all we know, they will drop all DW abilities on the next major patch so that it's not even a problem ... probably the easiest fix they've ever done. Do I think they'll do that? No. LoL. But it's an option, and it was not explained either way. "Next major patch" does not translate into "DKs will be viable DW tanks soon." The word 'major' is not defined, so we don't know when it will happen, so the word 'soon' is a bit iffy for a translation.

But, the major thing I see is that the OP for that statement, and the corresponding Blue response, were both posted in the "Damage Dealing" forums. This was not a tanking topic, it was a DPS topic. If I remember correctly, and I'm sure I do, the nerfs to DW for DKs stemmed from tanking in the first place, and the blues stated something akin to "DKs were never intended to tank using 1-handed weapons and the nerfs are a reflection of that." In nerfing DW for tanking, they also nerfed DW for DPS.

The only thing I can truly conclude from GC's comment 20 days ago is (conclude logically, I should say), is that DKs will be able to DPS with DW more effectively ... or at least the devs are planning on implimenting a change to DW or DW abilities/talents to make them more effective and/or comparable to 2-handed DPS, while still placing a larger emphasis on not being able to tank while dual weilding. Again, this was a DPS topic in a DPS forum, and the whole reason DW DPS needs a buff is because Blizz stately quite implicately that DKs should not DW while tanking. I don't see how you can come to any other conclusion from the statement "next major patch."

I want to touch on ML responsibilities from my point of view and also compile the best thoughts I've seen throughout this thread ... but this one post is getting way too long and I think it needs it's on post. Also, I'm on TDY with the Air Force atm, so I'm on the hotel computer and need to let somebody else have some internet time, too. So, I'll post that later.

Thank your time (if you don't "TLDR" me). For the most parts, I think the discussions here have been great and some wonderful opinions and suggestions to help other people in ML positions have been brought to light.

Also, thank you for keeping the flames away, there was potential for some extreme arguing with this topic and I'm happy TankSpot has such fantastic members that are open for discussion such as this!

[Mofotrey]

As much as it pains me to say this... (My guild doesn't run Naxx 25 and I have to PUG it every week... I've lost Last Laugh roll to a warrior OT that barely tanked anything the entire run 3 times now -_-) I think that the DK should have gotten it since he won the roll.

Basically you came into the raid as a DPS - If you clear that you'll be rolling on Tank items with the RL, ML, and other tanks beforehand it'd be different but otherwise since the Dual Spec addition I've been a firm believer that your 'Main spec' for the raid is the spec that you're coming in as. Otherwise you have 6 or 7 DPS warriors, DKs, and Paladins trying to roll on tank gear over the people actually tanking claiming that their real main spec is tanking.

Since you came in as a DPS you should be rolling on LL as offspec for that raid, and since the DK is using 2Hers he should roll on it as offspec, too. He won the offspec role so he deserved it.

If it were a matter of him rolling on something he MIGHT be able to use IF Blizz makes changes it'd be different, but hoenstly DW DK Tanking is possible and totally effective if done correctly as of right now. My DK alt which I rarely play still does it and I'd be extremely pissed if I won a roll for Last Laugh to go with my Broken Promise and it was given to a warrior that came into the raid DPSing instead.


The role of a Master Looter in a PUG raid is not to play God and decide who needs what more, his role is to be fair to everyone in the raid. Deciding that a certain class shouldn't use a certain weapon type and giving it to someone else after a roll isn't being fair. What if a ML decided that a Fury warrior shouldn't win Inevitable Defeat after winning the roll on it because he already has an epic 2Her and should be Arms instead?

[Molohk]

For instance, the DKs in the raid, and also in this very thread, that all state "Blizz is working on DW for DKs, so even if tanking is not optimal (or viable, there seems to be debate on that even amongst the DKs) right now, it will be soon, and therefore the DK should get it."

I have yet to meet a DK (who knows his class) who honestly believes DW is not viable.

About ML responsabilities and powers: In a guild run you can use a certain ammount of judgement when distributing loot, simply because everyone is working together for progression as a group, so all the raid will benefit if a tanking weapon goes to the tank that will make the best use of it. The same principle does not apply on a PuG, every player in the PuG is there for his own individual benefit (or for the benefit of their own respective raids).

To illustrate: I ran Naxx25 PuGs for a while because I wanted to upgrade my Keystone Great-Ring - Item - World of Warcraft because the damn Hodir ring never drops for our raid and I thought the upgrade would benefit my guild, when an upgrade finnaly dropped I won the roll and the second place roller was another tank who was wearing some crappy lvl 78 ring. In a normal guild-run situation I would've passed because the raid would benefit more if the upgrade went to the lesser geared raider, but I looted the ring because I was in that PuG to benefit my guild's progression and if that ring went to some other tank I don't even know, that just won't do anything for my guild. There's also no way for a PuG ML to evaluate how much an upgrade will benefit each roller, a small upgrade for a guild's MT would benefit his guild more than a big upgrade for some other guy who usually raids as DPS (as an example), and it's just not practical to profile every roller to be able to decide. Because of this, I feel the only responsability of a PuG ML is to make sure loot rules are enforced, and loot rules should be clear from the start (main spec first, and you roll for the role you bring to the PuG).

I think most of us agree that of all the rollers, the OP would've benefitted from LL the most, but because the PuG is there to satisfy the individual needs of the PuGers and not a collective goal of progression, I believe the loot should go to the highest roller of those that fit the looting rules. Aguing someone is currently not specced for DW doesn't hold much weight IMO (as long as the DK plan on respeccing accordingly within their current role), because it feels like telling an arms warrior he can't role on an mace because he is currently mace spec, both of them are planning on respeccing to be able to upgrade. A couple of months ago I in fact allowed a 2H dps DK (wielding a rep weapon) to roll against rogues on 1Hers, because he said he was waiting for 2 good 1Hers before respecing for DW, he actually got 2 1Hers that run and respecced immediately.

[UsalCrab]

I hate DKs.

[anul]

as of recent i have gotten my dk up to lvl 80 and am going main spec tank, well really offtank because of the fact that i wanna duel wield. it is alot easier to get your deff ratting as a dw dk but for it to go to them if it is not an upgread or a main spec is totally bogus. the ml was right to give it to you first, like you said there is nothing in blizz notes that says they are uping dw tanks and i doubt they ever will but untill they do i think that LL should go to main spec prot tanks that can actually use it and then if there isnt one then it gose to maine spec dk tanks then after that offspec. but thats just my take on it

[LadyFirehawk]

That would NOT have flown in most of the raids I've been in. You're there as DPS, you roll on DPS items. Period. The ML screwed up in giving the item to someone who didn't actually win the roll.

It's one of those Murphy's Law-type risks we take in dual-speccing. (Or bringing different characters to a raid, for that matter.)

[Retributor]

This is all so redundant. DW tanking is not viable, the increased parry hasting and hugely decreased hit chance invalidate any positives that could come from it (and there really aren't any anyway). You would have to purposely avoid huge effective health and avoidance gains simply to substitute expertise and hit for it to ever be remotely 'effective'. This still of course does not mention the fact that tanking weapons would still probably be some of the the worst choices due to their fast swing timers, which would lead to lower damage, more parry haste and therefore less threat and higher damage taken (probably resulting in burst related deaths).

But anyway, now that's out of the way...

I would have given it to the warrior, it wouldn't have even been discussed, it would have been automatic. Would you let a Hunter roll on Betrayer of Humanity? Well, it could easily be an upgrade for them. Encouraging people's delusions and letting people roll on, and win stuff they shouldn't won't make you a good Master Looter, it does the exact opposite.

You can argue all day that the loot rules were highest /roll and it being a PuG, but that doesn't void common sense and it definitely doesn't make giving loot to deluded individuals any more valid. I don't play to cuddle scrubs who don't understand mechanics, especially not in PuGs.

[Thundercud]

DW tanking is not viable, the increased parry hasting and hugely decreased hit chance invalidate any positives that could come from it (and there really aren't any anyway). You would have to purposely avoid huge effective health and avoidance gains simply to substitute expertise and hit for it to ever be remotely 'effective'. This still of course does not mention the fact that tanking weapons would still probably be some of the the worst choices due to their fast swing timers, which would lead to lower damage, more parry haste and therefore less threat and higher damage taken (probably resulting in burst related deaths).

[...] I don't play to cuddle scrubs who don't understand mechanics, especially not in PuGs.

Please stop spreading misinformation. Especially on the forum that has done the most to dispell those very falsehoods you are spouting in your post. In order to help you better "understand mechanics" please check out these threads to get smart about DW DK tanking. 3.2 and DK DW'ing and Deathknight DW Tanking Discussion should set you straight on the current state of DW tanking.

PS You're welcome.

[Theotherone]

Interesting note here and more relevant after 3.2. As a forst DK tank, I would not even think to dual wield, (I dual wielded while leveling cause it really does look cool, but that was then) however, to base a loot ditribution on what you subjectively beleive is a good or bad tanking spec is absolutely unfair. Basically, who is some lootmaster to decide that "oh, DK's can't be good dual wielding tanks so I'm going to ignore the winning role and give the weapon to someone else who came in to the raid as a dps." Blizzard gave DK's the ability to dual wield and anyone playing that toon has a right to gear their toon so they can play as they like. How can DK's take advantage of or try the new Frost talent if they can't get weapons cause some elitist feels they know better. If there's a problem with dual wield DK tanks, then complain to Blizz to take the ability out of the game.


Plus changning gear to roll, getting owned in the roll by a main spec (the spec he walked in with) and then actually getting loot; that's just wrong, plain wrong.

[Thundercud]

^^ /Agree

I think you're right on with that reasoning Theotherone.

[Meldwyn]

Why roll at all if the ML is just going to give it to whomever has the "better argument" on need and use? Just present your arguments to the judge for any given loot and he can pronounce his judgement and give it to whomever he/she wants.

On a side note, I was OT on an OS run and won a roll for class gear, then later when everyone rolled for the satchel, I had the highest roll then too. The ML gave it to the second highest because I had already rec'd something... I said nothing! "Thanks for the run guys, take care" was my final communication. No biggie! Its a game! We really need to keep this in mind. We play with electronic Ken's and Barbies with Monopoly Money and get all worked up over silly in game stuff that really really really doesn't matter two hoots in RL.

Just my 2 copper!

[Daereg]

I try to lead a Naxx25 every week, I'm yet to encounter LL, we do 2xNeeds per person and everyone can roll on anything so I'd have to give it to the highest roller, and I haven't seen anyone dual wielding 2 tanking weapons in...well, ever.
Besides that, whats the DK wielding? If hes the MT, I'd guess he has a pretty good Two-Hander already and shouldn't need 2x1Handers, are they really that much better?
My preference would be to give it to the Warrior/Paladin tank, but thats just what I'm used to.

[Splug]

RISE FROM THE GRAVE, THREADLY MINION!

The context of this debate has changed drastically from when it was posted two months ago. That said, the root of it is still in pug loot mechanics. In my opinion, when loot's being conducted mainspec over offspec, the primary determining factor is the role filled, not the specific means of filling the role. For example, I would not have a problem with an arms warrior getting a second 2h for his fury build - it's one slot changed, the rest of his gear has extremely strong overlap. Likewise, a 2h-using deathknight rolling for a 1h - be it a tank rolling for a defensive 1h or a dps rolling for an offensive 1h - would be in the right. The entire armor/trinket ensemble is consistent between the two specs, and a 50 gold barrier is absolutely trivial.

The line gets fuzzy when a tank deathknight wants to roll for a slow damage 1h as a tanking weapon. Until slow tanking 1h's make a reappearance, that's actually a legitimate decision from a threat/survivability tradeoff perspective, and one I frequently make during raids. Similarly, what happens when a warrior wants a pyrite infuser (passive hit rating, AP proc) as a threat trinket? I could understand a call on either of those going both ways as far as being main-spec priority, though I personally would go with that pushing interpretation a little too far and being non-priority.

-Splug

[Punchingbag]

Last night I landed in a pickup group in Naxx 25 with Maexxna, Saph, and KT left to go. When I arrived I changed out my Port spec/gear and went Fury.

I think the first part says it all. (pug and changed spec)

Bottom line is that even though it sucks you went as a DPS spec so its not a main spec roll for you at that time. Furthermore, you did get to roll on it anyway and lost. You ended up with the axe and I could see how someone who won a main spec roll against you only to end up not getting the item could be ticked off about it.

As a member of THAT particular raid, your main spec was Fury and you shouldn't have got a roll against any main spec rollers. Only after there were no main spec rollers should it then be up to off-spec rollers.

Imagine if every Pally or Druid Healer rolled on every tank item for their other spec. (i.e "I am normally a tank and just healing for this raid so that is my main spec")

When you show up for a raid, you fill a roll (tank, heal, or dps) and you're only entitled to roll on your role items unless no one else rolls and they move to secondary specs, etc.

[Hades]

Here's my little bit of change out of the couch.

As much as I hate to say it, and would love to do it, DW DK tanking won't be viable until Rune Strike gets added to the new Threat of Thassarian talent. That said, you came in as Fury and unless you explained to the ML that you could use a couple upgrades in prot before joining the raid, he kinda screwed up. Pug or no, ML has to stick to the rules set before they flew up from Wintergarde Keep. I'm glad you got your new axe, but the price it came with (MLs potentially going against their initial rules, excessive drama) were much too heavy.

[Blue]

Problems like this are why I don't pug, unless I go in with thought of only getting badges. The loot system in WoW is a seriously defective mechanism, imo. It should be totally "autopilot"...that is, either everyone gets a drop for a kill, that's specific to their character, or everyone rolls on one drop--for a special item to be chosen by the winner, later (like the badge system, only one time items). Personally, I like the everyone wins something specific line...can still be epic, or not, but at least something, and not subject to drama, or arguement...plus, those who just like to kvetch could still do so...ad nauseum.