Last Laugh Drops: Goes to DK or War?

[VerticalEvent]

I didn't say the majority thought the warrior should have gotten the weapon, I said the majority felt that dk's at this time cannot effectively dual wield..

No, I quoted you. You said that the majority agreed that the Warrior should of received the weapon (what the master looter did), and not the DK. You said nothing about the viability of DW tanking.

@Genomes: Of course he's being a douche... he feels like he got an item ninjaed from him. He rolled and won and didn't recieve the item. If you were a Ret Pally, who rolled and won on the Betrayer, but the master looter gave it to a Warrior Orc because "he can use it better" (Axe Specilization + Axe specced), I don't think you you'd be too happy, either. Mind you, it was misdirected, and should of been at the master looter.

@Tarigar: It wouldn't really matter if one could enchant/gem right on the spot - the weapon dropped from KT, which meant, in most cases, the raid was over, unless they wanted to do Eye of Eternity or Obsidian Sanctum.

[Tatt]

"The ML obviously agrees with the majority, in believeing that at this moment dw'ing is not feasible for a dk."

Those are my exact words from the first page of this thread. AGAIN, I am not saying that the majority agrees in the ML's decision to give the weapon to the warrior. What is bothering me about this argument is no one to my knowledge has argued the fact that the dk could or should be viably using Last Laugh. The argument is the wepaon is better for the warrior, but the loot rules should favor the dk. This bothers me because it is rewarding people who have less knowledge of their class. While I can appreciate the fact that the dk might, at the time, be upset that he feels like something that should have been his was taken away from him, if he goes to any site that I am aware of (elitistjerks, wowhead, tankspot, etc...) then he should figure out that he SHOULD NOT BE USING IT. I have not seen anyone put forth any kind of wws or logs showing that dw was even capable of matching 2hander output (threat or dps) let alone surpassing it. Should we let any class roll on whatever it wants, simply because if that person thinks he can use it then obviously he should be able to? If no one corrects mistakes and miseducation, then how can anyone improve? Find me something that says that the DK can benefit RIGHT NOW from that weapon, and we can discuss that. Saying that it wasn't fair because of a misconception is just saying its ok for people to ignore proven theory and gearing principles and do whatever they feel like.

[Tarigar]

@Tarigar: It wouldn't really matter if one could enchant/gem right on the spot - the weapon dropped from KT, which meant, in most cases, the raid was over, unless they wanted to do Eye of Eternity or Obsidian Sanctum.

I never brought up enchanting in the first place you did, so I was giving the weapon chain as an example oh how a 1h tanking class could do it on the spot.

I consider immediate use as I can equip it now without having to visit a trainer to respec for the specialization. Since we are talking weapons enchants are mute point.

Stats on weapons generally increase your threat, avoidance, and eh alone without enchants.

Yes you may lose hit (if you have accuracy or a chain) but you gain more ap and base dps. I would equip the new weapon regardless whether or not it had an enchant on it.

[VerticalEvent]

Oops. I apoligize, Tatt. I thought you were the person I quoted earlier (rmd83). I should of paid more attention to the names of the posters and less on the content.

As much as I agree with you that 2H tanking is better then DW tanking, based purely on threat, it's also his character, and he should be allowed to play however he wants to. This is a game that we play for fun. Some of us enjoy min/max our characters and some like their characters in certain play styles. This was a PUG, not a guild run trying to progress.

The weapon is not better for the warrior; the weapon is for any tanks using 1H weapons, which the DK was clearly using. This is a PUG, not a progressive raid. He sat down and raided the X amount of hours, he is entitled to the loot that upgrades his current gear like anyone else. He wasn't asking for it for RP purposes - it was a legitmiate upgrade to his play style. I'm sure there's a mage spec more poweful then the rest in raids, but I see plenty of Fire and Ice and Arcane mages in end game, and no one tells them to respec to spec X because it's better. They get to pick their own play style.

I find it funny that us DKs have to share tanking drops. Paladins and Warriors recieve gear with +SHield Block/Value that us DKs simply cannot use, and, then, I see them rolling on the few pieces of tank gear that drop that we can use. I'm used to it and I understand, though it is a little frustrating seeing a Warrior roll on Shield Block shoulders and then roll on the non-shield block shoulders a few boss fights later. But, hey, all three plate tanks can use it.

Now, a weapon, typically used by 1H tanks drops, and a a DK can actually use it and people are saying it's not itemized for him. Everything on that weapon, a DW DK tank can use and Warriors and Paladins are going crazy over the idea of having to share their precious loot tables with the DKs, something us DKs have to do with plate drops. I have never heard anyone say "Those don't have shield block, that should go to the DK tank and not the Warrior".

[Tatt]

The difference is armor with or without block rating or value makes paladins and warriors better tanks (gearwise)....1 hand weapons make dk's WORSE tanks (again I have not seen anything to disagree with that fact).

This also probably hits close to home for me because for a good 75% of my Wow career (rofl career) I have been a pugger. Guild scheduling conflicts, wrong servers, that kind of thing. Giving the dk Last Laugh in this case makes good players LESS likely to pug, because they are tired of seeing players gearing incorrectly or without conscious reasoning. How many puggers here have shown up for a pug 10 or 25 man and counted the number of idiot dk's wearing half dps and half tank gear, with some pvp crafted saronite stuff thrown in the mix? I know that I absolutely refuse to pug Thaddius anymore because of how many of these wonderful players have done 1200 dps and we missed an enrage timer, or could not understand the idea of positive right/negative left. Obviously those examples are much more severe than a dk rolling on Last Laugh, but it leads to the same place. Dk's already have a bad reputation because of how flooded most servers are with them, and how badly a large percentage of them play. Yes its his 15 bucks a month, and his 3-5 hours invested. But it was also 24 other people's 15 bucks a month, and their time, and they deserve for gear to be given out correctly, not to reward people who do not understand their class.

[Hengist]

I find it funny that us DKs have to share tanking drops. Paladins and Warriors recieve gear with +SHield Block/Value that us DKs simply cannot use, and, then, I see them rolling on the few pieces of tank gear that drop that we can use. I'm used to it and I understand, though it is a little frustrating seeing a Warrior roll on Shield Block shoulders and then roll on the non-shield block shoulders a few boss fights later. But, hey, all three plate tanks can use it.

Shield block isn't something warriors or paladins want on their gear. If we could choose how our gear looks like, there would be no sr/sbv on it at all, I mean for boss tanking. Its not like any possible stat that works for DKs isn't useful for warriors (and for paladins too, althogh they don't really want expertise). Dodge/parry/stamina/strength/armor/hit/expertise, those are optimal stats for us. DW tanking is definitely suboptimal for DKs, so your analogy isn't very good.

Everything on that weapon, a DW DK tank can use and Warriors and Paladins are going crazy over the idea of having to share their precious loot tables with the DKs, something us DKs have to do with plate drops. I have never heard anyone say "Those don't have shield block, that should go to the DK tank and not the Warrior".

If you really want to look at things that way, it is warriors and paladins who share their plate tanking drops with newcomers, those drops used to be only for us. Our right to those plate drops is exactly the same as yours. DKs right to 1h tanking weapons is IMO after shield tanks, but again, it should be pointed before inviting the DK, or at least before the boss kill.

[Arrian]

I find it funny that us DKs have to share tanking drops. Paladins and Warriors recieve gear with +SHield Block/Value that us DKs simply cannot use, and, then, I see them rolling on the few pieces of tank gear that drop that we can use.

Think of another place where gear can go to multiple uses: Even though there's Mp5 mail, a resto shaman gets just as much use out of crit/haste spellpower mail as an ele shaman. The same can be said for disc priests with similarly itemized cloth. Just because one class can use a stat and another can't doesn't mean gear without said stat is only itemized for the second class. Warriors and pallies have been avoiding BR/BV since long before DKs were a gleam in GC's eye.

As for the tanks taking BV gear, then rolling on gear that doesn't have BV later on, the other option is to shard the BV gear. Which is better for progression? A shard or a sidegrade/situational piece of gear? I always preferred having my raiders pick up iffy gear to sharding it.

OP: It was a pug and the loot rules were apparently main spec > off spec. You were in the pug as DPS, so unless they had a rule like "Declare what your main spec is," tanking was your offspec. I can see an argument for dual wield as offspec for a 2H tanking DK, so all three rolls were equally valid and you lost.

It would suck to lose a Last Laugh to a DK, but that's life in pugs. (Everybody has an "I can't believe I lost a ... to ..." story.) I think your ML should have followed the rules that the raid agreed on in the first place.

[Stephanius]

Face it: Death Knights are the new Hunters! =]

The class is very popular. For every awesome and skilled death knight - be it dps or tank - you have a dozen clueless people flailing their arms while proclaiming how awesome they are and laying claim to anything that they can equip.

I do have the Slayer of the Lifeless and the Red Sword of Courage on my DK tank. I picked them up during the first few weeks after wrath to test them out. What I would have never done is presume to compete for them with a pally or warrior tank for which they would be useful for certain.

A block set is for trash and non-challenging content, it has nothing to do with bits for the EH/MT set.

[Arkunsun]

I'd say it went to the right person and the DK's messaging you was bad form, if they had a problem with how the loot got handed out they should have messaged the Raid Leader as you had no control on who got it.

I think items should go to who ever benefits the most from the upgrade. You obviously did over the MT and while some would argue the other DK could have benefited from it more, I wonder what he was doing as OT in Naxx 25 to begin with. 26K health and no defense cap, that's just sloppy.

This is why I dislike pugging, too many arguments over loot rules.

[Molohk]

As said before, DW may not be optimal but it is possible. For reference, it has been stated that Blizzard will fix DK DW in the next major patch (we know we can take that with a grain of salt).

As a DK, I would never roll on last laugh against a prot warrior (even if he was DPSing in that particular run) unless I was currently dual wielding or planning on respeccing for DW as soon as I had the weapons to do so. But this form of etiquette doesn't always happen in PuGs, and cannot really be enforced.

As a ML, I'm afraid I would've given it to the DW DK, unless the MT DK said he intended to respec DW soon in which case I would've given it to the MT. PuGs usually go by the "main spec first" rule set, which generally implies "you roll as the role you are playing in the pug". I know it's not an optimal solution since that weapon is probably better in the warrior's hands, but PuGs are not really optimal to begin with.

The ML probably made sure the axe went to the best possible looter (you), but in doing so he had to step over common PuG loot rules (assuming that pug went by normal rules).

[Gromblee]

Molohk I am sorry to say but there is a guild on my my server that pugs often that has been blackballed by the raiding comunity due to the way they distibute loot. They make all sorts of statements as to how they justify loot awards not based on who can make best use of an item but who wants to roll on it. This has resulted in many looted items going to players that will either DE it or use it for a showpiece instead of putting it to it's proper use. Last Laugh going to a DK instead of a warrior / pally is insane..... he would never really put it to good use. As far as DW DK's are possible... yeah I can bear tank as resto but that does not make any sense either.

[Hengist]

As far as DW DK's are possible... yeah I can bear tank as resto but that does not make any sense either.

DW tanking is possible, its just not optimal, but it does work. Its nothing like resto bear tanking.

[minrog]

I agree that changing your mind after the /random 100 is bad policy and I would hesitate to trust the Master Looter after that. As a raid leader who sometimes leads PUG's I'll tell you that I would see the item get sharded to dust before I went back on my policy because of some specific class deal. It's one item whatever and I might get a little flack but it's impartial and I'm not going to get the reputation of being a liar afterward.

I do have some loot rules that I state ahead of time. Usually it's something like:

"Needs if the item is an upgrade for your set, Greeds if you don't want the item to be sharded and you have some esoteric use. Armor will go first to the classes that can only wear that armor type (cloth to clothies, then opened to all ect). If you are unable to use the item in question, such as a Warrior rolling on a caster staff, I will ignore the roll."

You're going to lose some rolls. Get a raiding guild if you want an advanced loot system. The DW Death Knight can actually use a tanking 1 hander and in fact to even make it work at all they need top of the line. It's no different than in TBC if you blocked a Shadow Priest from caster gear because they do sub-optimal damage and a Warlock would help the raid more. That or blocking an Enhancement Shaman in vanilla from picking up gear because Enhancement DPS sucks and they should be Resto instead.

Small Edit: I would have given it to the DK who rolled a 94. You peer pressured him to pass and then the other DK wants you to give it to him when he put on 2 weapons after seeing which items were on the body? They are talented for the same weapon damage type (2 hander) and you cannot trust people to be honest about not swapping weapons just to get gear and screw other people over. Highest roll wins imo.

[slackhoid]

DW tanking is possible, its just not optimal, but it does work. Its nothing like resto bear tanking.

Yes. In spirit of minmaxing the DW tanking is not currently optimal, but I bet I could go to Ulduar10 and DW-tank any encounter I've tanked as 2H if I wanted.

In pug the main spec is what you are doing in raid (unless very specifically stated otherwize so that everyone is 100% clear and agree on that, I've had an exception as ML when Ele Shammy specced resto to heal and to help us kill KT 2 hours before the reset) and if you take a DK with DW into raid as tank you better give him a main specc roll on the 1h tank weps. You never ever should give them over to a DPS that has tank side-spec. IMO in pug there is no MT/OT loot riviledges rights either; that is guild policy if any.

In guilds this is ofc totally different ballgame, but in pug denying main spec loot right with any excuse is just abusing ppl who have contributed their time effort.

We have a small guild and we're often pugging a few ppl to our weekly Ulduar10 raids. A lot of ppl are interested in joinging due to one fact: we treat them as equals without abusing their time. Passing is ok and ppl often do that as we have mature and nice ppl in our grp; I would never ever rob main spec loot roll right from anyone who has contributed time to raid with us.

[Berzerker]

As ML I would have tried talking the DK out of it. But he won the roll, and would've gotten it. As it was, the ML was the douche, and not you -- all you did was roll (as off-spec) and say you'd put it to good use. If the DK has a problem, he should be taking it up with the ML.

[Bryenne]

Lots of arguments both ways here, and it probably sounds a lot like the back and forth did on the OP's vent prior to the loot being assigned. Everyone has their opinions, but I think it's been stated pretty clearly several times over: ultimate responsibility for loot distribution falls to the ML'er. Period. In this case, the leader made a decision, and ended up making one new friend (of the warrior) and one new enemy (the DW DK). That's something that raid leaders have to do when running a PUG.

Most of us do have stories of "how I got screwed by the /random system" and "someone ninja'd my BIS!". Again, unless you clearly make arrangements prior to the raid, you have no right to complain when an item is distributed according to the defined rule system.

What the OP is looking for is confirmation that he was making a valid argument for needing the drop over the DW DK. Yes. Do I think he should have received it? In the context of the "commonly accepted PUG raid loot rules," no. Do I think the ML did the right thing? Yes.

This is the opinion of a raid leader, and a DK who has tried to DW tank, and someone that is on a "loot council" for both PUG and Guild raids. End discussion, go run more raids, get more gear. World doesn't end because you didn't win something.

[manicus]

From what i can see you rolled for the item as offspec, he rolled for it as main spec. If you stick to the loot rules, he should have gotten the item. Whether or not you could use it better should be of no concern here.

However I think the loot master took the right decision when he gave you LL. It is a better upgrade for you. :-D

[Grgruch]

It doesn't matter what the build or the gear was. This is a pug group and as such I'm sure just like our pugs high roll wins for main set first. If this guys was DW through the run (speced for it or not) it is his main set. If you want to make sure you get the item run with your guild.

Now we pug this all the time. The beauty of this is there is a DK tank and a Pally I run with. DK using 2handers and using all dodge parry gear is perfect for a warrior to run with since he doesnt need any of my shield blocking gear or the last laugh (if it ever drops for me as well) The pally.. Well I lost out my roll to him before and you know what.. Grats to him.. Ill get it eventually... Thats the beauty of this game. You have your shot again next Tuesday.

[Smokiez]

Why did it take minutes to distribute 1 item? lol, if no one was rolling on it, then you rolled offspec, why did the ML wait a few minutes?

IMO, the longer you wait to distribute loot, the more trouble it causes.

Also I would never allow a DK to dual wield tank as its not viable right now.

now for my opinion:

I believe the DK should have gotten it. Why?

In pugs, how I do loot is, what you bring for the encounter is your "main spec"

so if the DK was DWing, then that is his main spec, you were DPSing so that was your offspec, he had all rights to that weapon. especially since looting rules were not established.

Now if some rules were established prior to the fight since players roles changed, the whole issue at hand would have probably been avoided.

If it was me, I would have talked to the DK in private, if he still wanted, I would have taken my loss.

and this is coming from a warrior who has downed KT many times, and has yet to see last laugh drop. and no luck in ulduar for a tanking weapon

[Molohk]

Side note: People really should stop claiming DW tanking isn't viable, or comparing it to resto tanking. DW tanking IS viable, it's just not optimal right now, I'd compare it to sword spec arms dps, there are more optimal choices for your spec and just because you're specced for one type of weapon it doesn't mean you can't roll on another type if you plan on respeccing for it.