Last Laugh Drops: Goes to DK or War?

[Orz]

(not sure if this would be better for Theory forums or not)

Last night I landed in a pickup group in Naxx 25 with Maexxna, Saph, and KT left to go. When I arrived I changed out my Port spec/gear and went Fury.

KT wiped us 4 times before we got him down. There were some real issues with the melee ice tombing eachother, offtanks coming in from the side and tombing us and the main tank, etc. It was bad.

Come the end of KT, Last laugh drops.

I'm thinking to myself, this is awesome, as LL has eluded me for many months. The MT was an Unholy DK using a 2hander, one OT was a warrior that already had Last Laugh, and there was another DK that I had never inspected.

Had I actually inspected this other DK, I would have seen he was spec'd as a Frost Hybrid and using 2 one-handers for tanking even though he had talents increasing 2-handed weapon damage (spec = 23 / 33 / 15). I also would have seen that he was only at 531 defense and 26k hp. I suppose 26k is okay for OTing KT if the healers are good and your rotations are down, but 531 is pushing it a bit. Anyhow, I digress.

The call comes up for Last Laugh, and knowing that the warrior already had it I instantly rolled. I got an 11 ><. The Main Tank, again a DK, rolls and gets a 94. Everybody in Vent suddenly spoke out. I didn't say anything at first. The others all shamed the DK and said that was retarded. He said it's a tanking weapon and it goes to Main Spec first. He was chided yet again, as they said he was not spec'd to DW tank, so it would be an Offspec for him, and that using 1-handers was retarded.

At this point I put back on my prot gear and changed to my prot spec. I stated in vent that I'm usually a tank, which is absolutely true, and to inspect me if anybody wanted. I stated that I would really appreciate the Last Laugh and put it to good use, and didn't want to see it go to waste as it was an upgrade through and through, not a novelty item.

Now the other DK starts speaking up and saying that Blizzard has announced they're trying to make DW DK tanking more better, blah, blah. I called the bullshit flag, as I haven't seen anything from Blizz, in fact just the opposite. He also rolls, I forget the result, but beat me and not higher than a 94.

The DKs were both all about rolling and taking the one-hander, yet the myriad of voices on vent were calling them out on it. I chatted one more time /ra and said I'd really appreciate it, but go with what you think is right.

About 45 seconds with arguing still going on in vent, though I'm not participating and just watching/listening, the Last Laugh was master looted to me.

It didn't take long for the DW DK OT to send me a tell, saying what a douche I was and I had no idea what I was talking about.

So, now I finally come to my question:

If you're a master looter, what would you do in this situation? I'm not looking for anybody to say I deserved it, I want an honest opinion.

Personally, I think the Main Tank that was not spec'd for DW tanking should not get it. From looking at his gear, it would mean a downgrade and a respec.

As my being there as a Fury Warrior, I feel as if I have a right to roll on it if nobody else can roll as Main Spec or if it's not an upgrade for them.

But, this other guy, who showed a real lack of inexperience tanking and was literally being zerged through naxx 25 as a tank, was actually using 2x one-handers (red sword and titansteel bonecrusher), even though he was actually spec'd for 2-handers.

It's a difficult situation, as everybody I think has some sort of claim on the item.

Do you go by the actual results of the rolls, or do you make a call and say Main Spec (role) over Off Spec (role), no matter what ... or Main Spec (actual) over Off Spec (actual)?

... or throw your hands up in the air and shard it, lol?

[Petninja]

The beauty of the /roll system is that the highest roll wins. It has no logic to it, and is very inefficient if you're trying to gear a guild up to maximize your raid experience. That having been said, you didn't deserve the weapon since you lost the roll. I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me on this, since it's pretty clearly one of the best weapons a warrior tank can get. Personally I think the current reward system for bosses is retarded, and only feeds the childish behavior we see so often in game and on forums.

It's a pug, and that's what you have to expect from people. Your ML probably didn't obey the rules set out in the beginning of the raid very well though.

[Damonvile]

If I was master looter I would of given it to you. It's the same argument hunters have been making for 4 years. Just because you can use something doesn't mean you should. Warriors can tank with 2 handed weapons if they wanted to. They'd be totally gimped and die really easy but it's the same argument that DK was making..... he can DW tank but it's not as good as 2h.

Also... would they be ok if BoH dropped and you wanted it as your tanking weapon ? I doubt it. Same argument though....you could take some gimp spec and MS tank.

The only reason I would even consider giving it to one of the DK was if they got nothing all night and you did. Pugs aren't about who is it the biggest upgrade, that's what guild runs are for.

[Warwench]

it went to the right person... the DK is a moron.

DW tanking *is* possible, but it's not practical and he obviously wasnt spec'd for it.

I wonder what his tune would have been had Betrayer dropped and you rolled and won.

[rmd83]

Yeah the ML did the right thing imo. DKs don't need "tank" weapons to tank.

[Brutul]

Eh, you're not an orc. You can pug FL25 and upgrade it. So while it is better for you than him CURRENTLY, and I stress the currently as Blizzard has stated they're going to try and make DW DK's viable again soonish, it wouldn't have been something I'd have stressed over (if i wasn't an orc!).

[Krenian]

The dual wield situation has in fact been mentioned by Blizzard and they have been thinking about potentially making frost 'The' Dual Wield tree for DPS and tanking. However that's a thought only and nothing set in stone. Come 3.2 however, they plan on making dual wielding viable from all intents and purposes and as such, it may be the changes needed.

Right now, is the dual wielding tanking spec possible? Not particularly. It's doable but it's not the most effective type of tanking you can have. (And this is coming from one of the strongest advocates of dual wield tanking on this website). Will it? Potentially later. Right now though, the only thing you would wanna do with Last Laugh as a DK is to dual wield as it has a high strength/dps, however with the release of Ulduar, the axe does lose it's flavor. Leave it to the tanks that use one handers such as the Warrior and/or the Paladin.

Just clarifying something in the talks about DK and tanking. As for who was right/wrong, that's entirely on the perspective of what the loot priority system was. Was it a pug? Were the rules established before the raid? Was he dual wielding through the instance as a main tank?

The build shouldn't matter to be honest because that can be changed. It takes a quarter hour to get 50 gold back to do the highest cost of respec'ing.

a) Was he dual wielding through the instance? If he was, then he was dual wield tanking.

b) Did he do a sucessful job or was he terrible as a main tank that would potentially void him of loot? If he wasn't bad, and did the job he was supposed to, the tanking method was efficient, even if the spec did not make any sense to you.

c) Was the roll the proper roll in which was agreed upon? Was this a Pug or a loot council? If the rules stated that /roll and highest wins, then by all means he played within the rules.

To my personal opinion, he shouldn't of bothered rolling for a dual wielding death knight tank. However there are stubborn people out there that play it and it's their right. It may not be optimal but if they made it work for that run, then you cannot state that his job was not well done. It's all a matter of perspective.

If he followed all the rules, and rolled on an item that was an upgrade to him in his mind, and he did not break any of the rules or did not really fail at his class, then he should of won it fair and square no matter what the protest. If he didn't live up to his expectations however, that would be enough for me to step and say "Look, this guy will benefit more than you because this this and this. You have to understand that the changes coming are not now, and that right now, it doesn't benefit you more than it would him. Besides, you didn't do this this and this right."

This is why Pugs and loot are a nightmare: as soon as a 'bis' for people show up, courtesy goes out the window. Stick to the rules you set and you won't have these problems arise.

[Voodan]

I have a question, at the beginning of the run did you mention that you would be rolling primary on tank gear (as opposed to dps gear)? If so, I would say its right that Last Laugh got looted to you. If not, well...I think its not right that you got it. Regardless of the fact that the other DK had no idea how to spec, what the better choice is for DK tanking at the moment or any of that, the cold hard fact is that he was there, he put in his time, you clearly were able to down KT (though i'm sure he made it difficult for the healers) and he was there as a tank.

This to me is like the issue of a DK tank rolling on the KT neck quest stater. Does it have block itemization? Yes. Is it better suited for a warrior or pally tank than a DK/druid tank? Yes. Did it use to be best in slot for EH? Yes. That doesn't mean its not a pure upgrade for the DK tank.

Moral of the story, if its not a guild run that has a Loot Council in place, its not really you're place to tell people they can or cannot spec a certain way. As long as the upgrade is for the primary spec that the person is performing in the raid and its clearly an upgrade for them, they should have their fair roll against you imo.

[rmd83]

Well, for one DW DKs have been stated as "not viable tanks" which from what i've seen it's always 2H. I think the call was fair. That DK can go get B.P or SOTL if he wants to DW. I'm sure that same DK would have rolled on BOH if it had dropped, stupid blizzard thinking they are making the game balanced when it's clearly not :P. Also I would like to add that something like this happened in a 10 man naxx guild run where the DK was tanking and wanted death's bite for tanking/dps. Well I thought it was unfair that even though the primary spec of the OT was dps still rolled. They are both extremely good dps. I'm just not partial to the idea that DKs can roll on dps 2-Handers or 1-handers and still tank =\. Not saying warriors/paladins can't do that but we'd be extremely gimped.

[Roarc]

If a DK can viably roll for a "potentially solid upgrade for the future" (if blizzard changes something) a Warrior might as well be viable to roll on all DPS loot as well for our threat sets, block sets (that might be good in the future) etc. Blizzard has stated they would like Warriors to possibly focus more on other stats than tanking… In general it's an argument that doesn't hold much ground in my book.

If a person is experimenting, fine, that's good, but I'll always say main spec / proven viable spec first.

If you're a master looter, what would you do in this situation?
I'm all for the roll system in pugs if people know that they can roll for. If I come as DPS I ask if I can roll on my main spec or vice versa - I'll tank if I'm allowed to roll for DPS loot cause that's all I need. I dislike people rolling for odd items as above and it doesn't really work well in pugs. I would normally also never take an item over another player that has more use of it.

Last Laugh is the best weapon until XT-002 hardmode for an orc for instance. No questions asked. It will last this person a long long time hence he should have it in my eyes. Other classes and specs have a lot of other options out there, even better than Last Laugh, especially DK's with their main weapon - a 2-hander.

If the matter of the fact is it would be a side grade / experimental item I would again never roll in the first place. If a person is egoistic enough to do that I think it's only right the loot master steps in.

In-experience can often be solved by a clear "leader" in pugs. I don't know how many times I've had discussion about warriors vs pallies vs dk's where they all end up saying "but you have a shield and ranged weapon slot so what are you complaining about?" where the fact is both the other classes today are better off than warriors in scaling of stats. Un-educated deeds should be guided and I think it's only right the weapon is handed to someone that really will make use of it properly (given you're not an orc it's not as awesome of a weapon but it's far more viable than a DK having it).

In regards of rolling…
…main spec always rules unless you at the raid start came to another agreement. I've tanked Naxx with the notion I want DPS upgrades. If I can't roll for these I don't tank. If the raids don't approve of me doing this I respect that and find another. The important things is these things have to be set before hand and not during a run where someone might start rolling both ways which isn't good.

Regards
Roarc

[Gromblee]

Looks to me like it was the ML's decision in the end. Which is why there is a ML. If the DK's have a problem with loot their beef is with the ML and not you. I may be biased being a Warrior myself that is yet to get LL but maybe Ulduar will drop something for me.

[Karatheya]

but 531 is pushing it a bit. Anyhow, I digress.

Just as an aside, if the DK has the Sigil of the Unfaltering Knight, 531 is fine, because the sigil gives 53 rating (10.78 skill) for 30 seconds when Icy Touch is used.

[rmd83]

as i said in one of my other posts "If BOH had dropped the DK most likely would have rolled on that" which is quite possibly true. It's a flawed mechanic of the game that I think will eventually ruin wow. I mean why should I put my time into helping down a boss if I know that a dk might roll on an upgrade for me. When i know for a fact they most likely would have rolled on a "DPS" weapon if BOH had dropped. This is where the flawed mechanic comes into play DKs having the ability to roll on 1 handed tank weapons or change "DPS" weapons into tanking weapons. Jawbone is much easier to get and more viable for DK tanks. I guess this is all matter of opinion. I just got lucky and recieved LL first KT 25 kill which was around Jan. or so, but i'd be p/oed if a damn DK ninja'd it from me. I guess it's just me but the idea just really gets under my skin. Luckily i've never been in the situation myself but i'd be really ticked if i was and the dk was on the recieving side.

[Voodan]

rmd83 you're missing the point. It doesn't sound like the OP was there as a MT, he was there as dps (still waiting on an answer to confirm/deny that). But if thats the case, how can you say that a warrior helping the raid as dps but claiming to be a full-time tank when LL dropped has priority over a DK that does in fact DW as a primary tank spec? If that DK does DW and was there as a tank, then LL is directly an upgrade for his main spec. The whole reason for a roll system in a pug is to avoid master looters having the potential to determine who deserves an item more or blah blah blah.

Now granted if this was a raid that I was leading and I was ML of a guild run, no way in hell would a DW DK get it over our prot warrior. But given that it was a pug I think the ML overstepped his bounds...

[Tatt]

I have to agree with the poster who said it is the ML's decision. The ML obviously agrees with the majority, in believeing that at this moment dw'ing is not feasible for a dk. His choice was to give it to a class that is obviously going to IMMEDIATELY benefit from it. No matter what all of our opinions on whether it was unfair or main spec off spec or anything else, it comes down to who is going to IMMEDIATELY be able to put it to the best use. If I were the ML I would have done the same thing personally.

[Conreeaght]

Looks to me like it was the ML's decision in the end. Which is why there is a ML. If the DK's have a problem with loot their beef is with the ML and not you. I may be biased being a Warrior myself that is yet to get LL but maybe Ulduar will drop something for me.

I agree with this.

I have a friend that liked doing the DK dual-wield thing, and he's well geared to dps or tank (though more dps). We ran into an LL decision and he said (paraphrased):

"I want to roll, but I'd be shooting myself in the foot for any progression."

Now I'm rocking a titanguard from an FL25 pug. However, that statement will always be my consideration if I were ever to be in an ML position.

(similar happened with my Betrayer vs. a hunter pre-uld as well. They took it very well, especially after I explained the usefulness Envoy of Mortality had.)

[Kelstet]

In most pugs I clearly define my intentions before the start of them, when I was doing Naxx 25 pugs if they wanted me to DPS I gladly would but my only rule was that I would roll on LL and WoT off KT. Last pug I did I was Ret all the way up to KT when we lost a tank and I swapped to prot, WoT dropped and I won it.

I think fair is fair in terms of the end of the day it is the ML's judgment call, I would never tell someone they couldn't roll on it (in terms of a DW DK) even knowing that it would be a poor weapon choice for that char class. I think as long as you make your intentions known then most people wouldn't have a problem with it.

Just my two cents

Kel

[VerticalEvent]

As a DK Frost 2-Handed Tank, I disagree with what the Master Looter had done. Yes, I don't think DW is a viable tanking spec, but it was a main spec roll, and his spec involved using two one-handed weapons. You were there as DPS and not as a tank, so you would of rolled as an offspec roll (unless you and the raid had agreed to you rolling on tank gear).

It would be like someone saying to an Arms warrior that the Arms tree is not a viable Raid spec, and not letting the warrior roll on any polearms, used only by Arms warriors and letting an off-spec holy/ret Pally take the Polearm, instead.

The main argrument are that it was a) An upgrade for him, and b) something he can use right away. He came in as that spec, and he should be allowed to roll on any gear that helps his spec. If they didn't like the fact he was Dual Wielding, they should of kicked him from the raid at the start.

THe OP was there as DPS. He even says when he got there, he switched from Prot to Fury, to dps. The raid already had three tanks (A 2-H DK Tank, a Prot Warrior, and a DW DK Tank).

[Tatt]

Maybe I misread it, but the dual wielding dk tank had 2 hand weapon damage talented....if he did not have enough of a brain to make his talents follow his preferences than I refuse to consider that a main spec. And your arms warrior example does not make any sense. Arms warriors are very raid viable. Dw dk's AT THE MOMENT are not viable. As a tank they put out less threat, as dps they do less damage. The only way I would even consider this a worthy argument was if the weapon in question was broken promise instead of Last Laugh.

[Hengist]

If it would be a guild run, I would argue for giving the item to you - it reaches its full potential in hand of protection warrior and protection paladin, and that would be the best decision, considering future progress, not wasting loot etc.

But, in the pug, with DK actually playing as a tank, dual wielding, I would definitely give it to him - if his DW tanking was good enough to tank in the pug and kill the boss, its good enough to grant him some main spec tanking loot. I wouldn't even let you roll, since you were dpsing. I think it was not honest towards him - you accepted him in the tanking spot with his silly dw tanking ways, but you didn't let him get the loot for his main spec?