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Thread: Tanking icc

  1. #1
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    Tanking icc

    ICC brought us this nifty 20 percent dodge debuff... With this being said ... would you prefer your tanks stack stamina or dodge?
    Thanks,
    Cellinheim

  2. #2
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    Stamina

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    This has been discussed in very many threads just search ICC EH vs. Avoidance. That being said myself and almost every other tank prefer to focus on EH because of the way bosses are designed. The only actual arguement in terms of gearing is wether you should go for socket bonuses when they are as low as 6 stamina instead of 9 and wether to use the Hodir should enchant instead of the pvp one.

  4. #4
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    If a choice between those two, stamina. When choosing what gear to wear, you'll want to balance armor and stamina.

    I know many tanks that understand the need to stack stamina who take a glance at the Glyph of Indomitability, and never look again. In raids, the additional buffs to stamina and health that you get make the Glyph much better than the impressive 170 stam brewfest trinket in the majority of cases. Don't make that mistake, it's a fantastic trinket to have.

    That said, I'm pretty sure that stacking avoidance helps quite a bit with Stinky and Precious because of the mortal strike debuff (correct me if I'm wrong). It's a good idea to keep some gear around that's better for avoidance, just in case.

  5. #5
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    The issue i have with the stam vrs agil argument would fall into the idea of me getting hit more often eating licks at 30 k a piece and having 60+ hp. However, even though my health may be 40 K in bear form as agil i would dodge more often and take less overall damage. Granted my dodge is lower do to the debuff, but why exactly would stamina prove to be more so beneficial? Understand I am not looking to argue with anyone over this. I am looking for a reason for the decision that caused more tanks to "fear" what they used to be. Honestly though, we get blamed for alot with our gear as tanks, as do healers, however, if the heals did not know how to heal me... wouldn't it be their problem? this is curiosity, not trying to come off as an ass...
    Last edited by Cellinheim; 02-06-2010 at 11:35 AM.
    Thanks,
    Cellinheim

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cellinheim View Post
    The issue i have with the stam vrs agil argument would fall into the idea of me getting hit more often eating licks at 30 k a piece and having 60+ hp. However, even though my health may be 40 K in bear form as agil i would dodge more often and take less overall damage. Granted my dodge is lower do to the debuff, but why exactly would stamina prove to be more so beneficial? Understand I am not looking to argue with anyone over this. I am looking for a reason for the decision that caused more tanks to "fear" what they used to be. Honestly though, we get blamed for alot with our gear as tanks, as do healers, however, if the heals did not know how to heal me... wouldn't it be their problem? this is curiosity, not trying to come off as an ass...
    Avoidance is unreliable, health and mitigation are not. Regardless of how much avoidance you have, you can have a string of hits land on you, and without the mitigation or health to back you up, you'll die. Another thing to keep in mind, for those situations when a heal goes off a little late, it can easily be worth more because of your larger health pool since there'd be less overheal (such as when a tank healer gets spiked during Marrowgar).

    In my opinion, if a fight relies strongly on a high avoidance tank, it's probably a poorly designed fight. A solid group shouldn't wipe when they didn't make a mistake.

    Beyond that, there's the more obvious fact that quite a bit of damage isn't avoidable. All that avoidance doesn't do anything against magic.

  7. #7
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    As far as the magic goes i do agree with you. However, can one really say that a fight is poorly designed when it is based around avoidance? I mean shouldn't certain types of healers be used to dealing with an avoidance tank and be able to respond accordingly?
    Thanks,
    Cellinheim

  8. #8
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    The thing is Cellin is that for the most part healers aren't cancel casting, they are spamming heals all of the time since mana isn't an issue. Tanks now get killed from extremely high damage bursts, examples in WoTLK are Sarth 3D, Algalon, Thorim, H-Gormok, Festergut and for the most part the Lich King. All of these include very high damage attacks going out where avoidance will simply leave you praying to the RNG gods that you avoid an attack to stay alive. This is especially true on fights like H-Gormok where only one attack of the 3 string that kills you in that situation is avoidable meaning if you stack avoidance you have to avoid the one avoidable attack to stay alive.

  9. #9
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    The days of stop-casting heals and rank 4 heal rotations are gone. Stack stam and watch the paladins bomb you with absurdly high green numbers all night long.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cellinheim View Post
    As far as the magic goes i do agree with you. However, can one really say that a fight is poorly designed when it is based around avoidance? I mean shouldn't certain types of healers be used to dealing with an avoidance tank and be able to respond accordingly?
    As has been mentioned, the heals aren't supposed to stop. If you're at maximum health, the heals aren't doing anything. If you aren't, you'll be maxed out soon enough again. If a situation comes up where the heals get stalled for some reason, we should assume that every attack that comes will land until those heals start again. A tank with minimal avoidance that can absorb four to six hits before they die is insanely better than one with 60% avoidance that can absorb two to three. The avoidance tank might last longer, sure... They also might last shorter.

    Avoidance is nice, yes. It can save a raid sometimes. That said, a tank that relies on avoidance for survival is doing it wrong. Don't rely on the unreliable.

    As for the comment about poorly designed fights, it's subjective. My belief is that if a fight's mechanics cause enough randomness to throw an impossible situation for the raid to survive at you (assuming the raid is doing everything they should), it's a bad fight. Consider Stinky and Precious... Tanks can benefit from avoidance, since they can dodge a mortal strike. If the mortal strikes are coming at you faster than they wear off, though, it's creates the possibility that both tanks become unhealable despite the raid doing everything they should. I've seen those mortal strike stacks come in pretty quickly, but I don't know exactly how their rotation works, and I do know that their decimate gives a short rest between mortal strikes (which a savvy healer can use to prepair a bigger heal that lands right after).

  11. #11
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    Keep in mind we are not just discussing Bears here. Part of Bear EH is Agility, but that isn't all avoidance, that is armor too which is EH.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
    http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/v...ellvarsig3.jpg

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    Keep in mind that I am a bear...
    Thanks,
    Cellinheim

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cellinheim View Post
    Keep in mind that I am a bear...
    The biggest strength of bear tanks is the massive amount of EH they get. They're a damage sponge.

  14. #14
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    Yes, speaking for druid tanks: You would gear Agil and Stamina. You never socket dodge, correct? You aren't technically an avoidance tank, as you are stacking massive armor and stamina which is what EH is. The dodge you are getting is a "bonus" of your armor values. As far as I know, your only other "block" mechanic is savage defense, and you have no parry.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
    http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/v...ellvarsig3.jpg

  15. #15
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    On this note, how would i increase my health pool seeing as everyone is telling me to stack stam now. I mean the agil is king, no? I have the hybrid gems attached. It just seems that nothing is enough for anyone...lol, i also understand that this is always going to be an issue with other people telling others what they should do.
    Thanks,
    Cellinheim

  16. #16
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    There's a certain point where armor is more valuable than stamina, but that's only against physical damage. Each point of agility gives 2 points of armor (same for a druid?), multiply that by 3.6, you get 7.2 points per agility. I'm not sure if a bear tank would ever reach a point where agility becomes more valuable... and even then, stamina would still be superior in several situations.

    Some tanks really like to min/max as much as possible. It can help, but you'll probably be fine just going pure stam. Keep a few different pieces of gear around, though. Different gear for different situations.

  17. #17
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    I don't know enough about bears to tell you either way to gem. Darksend and Felhoof seem to know how it plays out for bear tanks.

    Keep in mind that armor does NOTHING against spell damage, that is where stamina comes in handy.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
    http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/v...ellvarsig3.jpg

  18. #18
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    My problem is not that i do not know how to gem my bear tank. My problem is that I am having difficulty getting into anything since icc dropped because the pug groups seem to believe that all classes of tanks should gem for stam and only stam. Which presents my dilemma.
    Thanks,
    Cellinheim

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cellinheim View Post
    My problem is not that i do not know how to gem my bear tank. My problem is that I am having difficulty getting into anything since icc dropped because the pug groups seem to believe that all classes of tanks should gem for stam and only stam. Which presents my dilemma.
    That's pretty accurate. I'll gem for something else only when the slot bonus is 9 stam or greater, but even then, use combination gems with stam on them. Toss a purple gem somewhere for the meta (may as well go for a bonus), then focus purely on stamina. Bear tanks get the biggest benefit from stamina compared to any other gemmed stat, or any other tank class for that matter. If they're going to make the stat so great for your class, you may as well get as much as you can.

    If you decide to gem for a bonus, go for expertise and agility (until expertise is maxed). Ignore any bonus that isn't stam, though.

  20. #20
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    Oh, I see. You are talking about the tanking dilemma that we are all faced with (ie. need 40K unbuffed to run Naxx 10, or need 5800 GS to run TotC 10, etc.).

    I really don't think we can fix that sadly, but I would pretty much stack stamina if at all possible without losing other necessary stats though. You really have to try to use your best judgment with it and do what you can with what you have available to you.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
    http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/v...ellvarsig3.jpg

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