Maintankitis - How to cope?

[Stephanius]

Even with your view of the situation provided in detail it is quite impossible to pinpoint the problem not to mention come up with a solution.
I will therefore just add my two cents, knowing that I can be off the mark considerably.

If I understand correctly you are disagreeing with tank assignments and the MT/tank leader's actions and feel that you would be doing a better job for reasons that are obvious to you and based on class or reading strategies.

Take a step back and consider if you could be part of the problem in the way that your tank team leader sees you - not your class/character - quite differently from how you see yourself. For example, how much tank experience do you have? How nimble are you on your feet? How do you react to unforseen things? Is your spatial awareness sufficient? Is your communication ok? How do the other tanks measure up in these points?

All of these things should be more important than the class the tank plays, with the possible exception of gimmick fights.

[ÆtærñÅl]

personally now that i have done a few runs. I say cope if you can take what they want to do improve and make voiced you want to be a leader then do it. if not then let someone who can lead lead. If your guild still is playing politics with who the MT is and that then well either play politics or get out. Friends or not politics have no place in raid spoils

[shez]

I think you should let your MT or officers know that you want to tank.

I had a similar thing happen a few weeks ago, our DK OT left the guild because we didn't let him MT stuff that he thinks would be super easy with a DK tank aka general. He had let us know what he was thinking, and not happy being put in a roll to dps (he has the highest dps out of all OTs, which makes it a natural choice to get him to change to dps spec for that fight dps), he is not very happy that he is always asked to respec dps first out of all the other tanks (e.g. at yogg we only need 3 tanks)

He left with a comments: good luck with progression without a DK tank.
(he's a trial and we had a few dks who can respec tank if needed, so not much of a loss)

If he talked to me, I'd have let him tank and get another tank to dps. But generally, my guild prefer me to tank because I'm slightly better geared and a better player. A few times i asked our healers whether they want to swap tank and try, but they didn't want to.

If you want to MT an encounter, talk to your MT/raid leader. I don't think there's any encounters a certain type of tank will considerably out perform a warrior tank. So your reason can't be becuase you're a DK tank so you should tank it, unless its fights like sartharion with 3 drakes and a non dk tank will get 1 shot.

For some fights, a warrior is clearly better to OT, then i will go OT. I also understand that it is boring to be OT everyweek, so i had my OT's MT in farm content, and let them take turn dps.

I would be extremely upset if someone not let me tank something becuase i'm a warrior. If you think you should be tanking becuase youre a better player than your MT then its perfectly fine, if you just want to tank it its also fine.

I don't know your MT history in your guild, but its very likely that the core raiders will prefer your MT to tank even though you're slightly better for certain encounters. MT is MT for a reason.

p.s. A warrior can also tank through surges without any external cd.

[GravityDK]

What happens to your current runs if this "MT" get sick, goes on vacation or quits? Do the runs just get cancelled?

Good point to raise. Tank corps and variation of duties here.
DK tanks have a lot of advantages on Vezax (I can't wait to see him myself), but like Cider said, it's possible for other tanks to do it too with good use of CDs.

But if a DK can make it easier, why not let you try? Your guild seems to take an anti-progression mindset. Perhaps there's more to their resistance, like earlier posters here suggested.

[Salloman]

Lets take the Main out of it and Just consider Tankitis....

Come on, anyone who has done any amount of raid tanking has had it at some point. I know I have... Shove everyone aside and let them revel in my brilliance! Whats funny is we all have it. It sounds like your MT has it and you have it.

Damn... the other day i was in Naxx 10, jumped on my good 'ol prot warrior. Took him for a spin! It was an alt group but we all knew the fights... smoothest run we had in weeks. Previous tanks were also alts, so they were dps/healers learing to tank, so naturally they made mistakes. I must say it felt good... keeping us alive as a weak OT learned from the master... lol. Tankitis sank in, and we wiped twice on instructor because I didnt fix my UI to dismiss and forgot about the summoning stones limited range. Reality check, we playing this game the best we can, we all f*&% up! We learn from exposure to a role. Making mistakes and learning from them. Regardless how much tankspot we read or well we know our class, we need exposure to the role to be good at it.

I would suggest discourage MT/OT tags. Rotate your MTs, everyone will benefit from it, even your MT! Besides, the best tank in the world aint gonna help you any if they dont get healed and the dps doesnt down him in within the enrage timer. Raids are really a group effort, thats why they are so much fun and hard at the same time.

[Dhalphir]

Simple solution.

If your guild is able to kill Vezax using this warrior tanking the way he wants to, let him do it. He's the one with the stressful job. If they're wiping due to kiting issues (like him not getting far enough away, fucking up the kite, etc etc), quietly point out to the other raid leaders the advantages of you tanking it.

[Nidhoggr]

Come on, anyone who has done any amount of raid tanking has had it at some point. I know I have... Shove everyone aside and let them revel in my brilliance! Whats funny is we all have it. It sounds like your MT has it and you have it.

Back in BC I tanked as a Paladin. Primordial, I played on a very small server and I was one of the very first (if not THE first) Tankadin on Hordesite. At least, I was the very first really ambitious one in one of the bigger guilds.

I always had issues to persuade people in the first place that a pally is able to tank. This started back in 5 man instances and kept going in raid instances. So I always have to fight for my right to maintank, fight against the other tanks in our raid, fight against dumbass randoms who couldn't believe a pally is a good tank. Even in front of Gorefiend, the raidleader of another guild started whispering me that a tankadin won't be able to tank him, because of crushing immunity - which was, of course, just dullness, and because of the fact, that he was the brother of our warrior-tank.

These days, I was just like the tanks mentioned here in the thread, even more when I started raidleading in our guild. I wanted to tank everything and everyone, because I know what I could handle and I wanted to show the others that I am the man in charge. Always showing that I am the alpha male and never show any weakness, because I have fought for to long to earn the proper respect - and I earned it for sure, every Karazhan/ZA-Raid was glad having me tanking for them, strangers started to ask me questions about class mechanics and so on.

But now in WOTLK - I now tank with my warrior again, but still being raidleader - this has changed. People know what I'm able to do and I have no problem to take a step back, letting other ones mt a boss. I handle adds or switching to dps spec.

So I think Maintakitis - or as I call it: Raidleader Syndrom, because it's not just that you want to tank everything, but you always need to be the leader, even in 5 man - really is an issue of tanks. It's hard letting other ones do the job, if you used to have a steady hand on the tiller. I actually hijacked random raids when I had the feeling the leader doen't really know how to keep the raid on track. In less then 10 Minutes I was the one who was in charge, even if I was the last one invited to the raid.

But after a (long) while you learn that it's not personal when you're not leading or maintanking a boss and that you won't lose your status just because you give other people a chance. Then you can just sit back and relaxe, and even having a good time while another poor bligther is the one who have to handle 25 single persons with at least 15 different raid-attitudes :>

[Esch]

Simple solution.

If your guild is able to kill Vezax using this warrior tanking the way he wants to, let him do it. He's the one with the stressful job. If they're wiping due to kiting issues (like him not getting far enough away, fucking up the kite, etc etc), quietly point out to the other raid leaders the advantages of you tanking it.

A bit of reply & follow-up for folks:

It turned out that the smaller, 10 man push team has played with Vezax using kiting, DK tanking an Warrior tanking, and succeeded using all those variations. The MT warrior's decision is to throw me at Vezax-25 at this point. I'm feeling that since he's seen how it all variations work and is going with the nonkiting strategy at this point.

Also, we're getting some rotation into the mix, though it tends to be on farm bosses. Some of the keepers do give us significant grief and we're focused on eeking out kills rather than making sure all the tanks are at 100%. Offhand, I think myself and another OT are both geared/skilled to cover for absences. It rough on the first few attempts, but we've managed to keep repeating our kills.

Wish me luck, I'm hoping for a night with Vezax.

[Ramnath]

A bit of reply & follow-up for folks:

It turned out that the smaller, 10 man push team has played with Vezax using kiting, DK tanking an Warrior tanking, and succeeded using all those variations. The MT warrior's decision is to throw me at Vezax-25 at this point. I'm feeling that since he's seen how it all variations work and is going with the nonkiting strategy at this point.

Also, we're getting some rotation into the mix, though it tends to be on farm bosses. Some of the keepers do give us significant grief and we're focused on eeking out kills rather than making sure all the tanks are at 100%. Offhand, I think myself and another OT are both geared/skilled to cover for absences. It rough on the first few attempts, but we've managed to keep repeating our kills.

Wish me luck, I'm hoping for a night with Vezax.

I'm glad this seems to have worked out for you. I'm in a similar situation. The present GM of our guild is also the MT. Which to me isn't the problem. The problem is that he is by far the worst tank in the guild and has stifled progression many occasions dating back to BC. I have since quit going to our 25 mans and I only focus on the 10s because the group is better.

I consistently hear guild chat complaints about how he cannot generate threat. The one 25 man I went to he generate a paltry 3k threat on Patch. I don't think by any means that I am the best tank in the world, although I've been raid tanking since MC and my warrior is my only 80 that I rolled in '04, so experience is on my side.

I've taken it upon myself to send him a PM on our forums discussing why I felt his threat was bad and how he could correct it. I got the standard politically correct answer of, I'm going to stick with what I've got. 2 months later nothing has changed.

The people in my guild are really good people and are being held back by the lack of ability that a few players are displaying. Those players just happen to be 4 of 7 guild officers, including the GM. I understand I am thread leeching here. Does anyone have any experience with this and how to navigate these waters aside from publicly telling them that they are bad?

[shez]

I'm glad this seems to have worked out for you. I'm in a similar situation. The present GM of our guild is also the MT. Which to me isn't the problem. The problem is that he is by far the worst tank in the guild and has stifled progression many occasions dating back to BC. I have since quit going to our 25 mans and I only focus on the 10s because the group is better.

I consistently hear guild chat complaints about how he cannot generate threat. The one 25 man I went to he generate a paltry 3k threat on Patch. I don't think by any means that I am the best tank in the world, although I've been raid tanking since MC and my warrior is my only 80 that I rolled in '04, so experience is on my side.

I've taken it upon myself to send him a PM on our forums discussing why I felt his threat was bad and how he could correct it. I got the standard politically correct answer of, I'm going to stick with what I've got. 2 months later nothing has changed.

The people in my guild are really good people and are being held back by the lack of ability that a few players are displaying. Those players just happen to be 4 of 7 guild officers, including the GM. I understand I am thread leeching here. Does anyone have any experience with this and how to navigate these waters aside from publicly telling them that they are bad?

hmm i wonder why good players are still staying in the guild. We're lucky that officers are actually good and chosen to be officers cos they are good.

guess if you've talked to your gm and nothing has changed after 2 months, there isn't much you can do...

[Esch]

hmm i wonder why good players are still staying in the guild. We're lucky that officers are actually good and chosen to be officers cos they are good.

guess if you've talked to your gm and nothing has changed after 2 months, there isn't much you can do...

Guild relations often extend beyond raiding, which is part of why I've stuck around my group even though I've continued to be defaulted to OT roles (though, most of the time, it's a moot point). No one wants to leave a group they're comfortable with, even if raiding is lackluster.

The problem, from my experience, is officers get comfortable with their positions/group, and miss membership input. Odds are, the officers are content with the GMs leadership and this tanking skills aren't a high concern. For raiders, especially DPS and/or folks wanting progression, the inverse is true.

My thought? Look at moving on, either to 10s only, building the 10 into a 25 group or going to another/new 25 group. The frustration level is only going to build if it stalls/stops progress. As for showing it 'politely', it's hard. If someone isn't open to advice, getting them to recognize your concern (valid or not) is difficult without insulting them... and that assumes they'll not just be insulted anyways by implying their 1337 skills are inadequate.

[Ramnath]

Guild relations often extend beyond raiding, which is part of why I've stuck around my group even though I've continued to be defaulted to OT roles (though, most of the time, it's a moot point). No one wants to leave a group they're comfortable with, even if raiding is lackluster.

This is exactly what's happening.

The problem, from my experience, is officers get comfortable with their positions/group, and miss membership input. Odds are, the officers are content with the GMs leadership and this tanking skills aren't a high concern. For raiders, especially DPS and/or folks wanting progression, the inverse is true.

The same with that.

My thought? Look at moving on, either to 10s only, building the 10 into a 25 group or going to another/new 25 group. The frustration level is only going to build if it stalls/stops progress. As for showing it 'politely', it's hard. If someone isn't open to advice, getting them to recognize your concern (valid or not) is difficult without insulting them... and that assumes they'll not just be insulted anyways by implying their 1337 skills are inadequate.

Myself and four RL friends just started new guild discussions today. We all have guild and raid leading experience dating back to Vanilla and into BC. We joined this guild to not have that responsibility. There is so much talent in my guild and it pains me to see a good guild struggle needlessly.

[Krehinth]

I'm currently a officer tank in my guild. I don't like the tags MT/OT, if a tank would be considerable better at a role in a fight then I have him/her do it, otherwise whoever wants to 'MT' I'll let them. I'd rather keep my tanks happy (Even though I do enjoy 'MTing' myself) then MT all the fights.

If u r still having any trouble with your GM/MT then I say talk to him, if he doesnt consider any changes then I would not like to be in that guild.

[slackhoid]

Myself and four RL friends just started new guild discussions today. We all have guild and raid leading experience dating back to Vanilla and into BC. We joined this guild to not have that responsibility. There is so much talent in my guild and it pains me to see a good guild struggle needlessly.

We started a 10-man only guild with some of my buddies (very experienced raiders starting from Vanilla) to raid Ulduar and are having great time so far. As 10-man only the organizational duties are not nearly as time-consuming as in bigger guilds; I'm GM and RL and I do not find this much work at all. With the new 10-man hard modes there is a lot of challenges (we're now at Vezax in Ulduar10, killed Mimiron with some pugged ppl last reset) left and in 10-man raiding everyone's effort has bigger role.

We're running this as very small team, only around 12 active players, but with dual-specs and skilled ppl we have made steady progress while not having nowhere nearly optimal raid composition. I'd recommend 10-man only guild for anyone too tired of all the mess and extra work big 25-man guilds/raids create.

As for OT/MT stuff; to me that classification is ancient history. We have DK (me) and Pally tanks and we switch roles for each encounter to get best abilities for task at hand; I tank/heat Ignis adds with my CDs/CoI/DG, snare/kill bomb bots in Mimiron stage 3. The pally also tanks most single-tank fights (except Hodir and Vezax as my CDs are so powerful there) because my DPS off-spec is considerably more DPS than his. Works perfectly for us and helps progress. To my experience most ppl insisting "I'm the de facto MT" are just using that line trying to justify hogging all the tank loot to themselves.

[twoswords]

Maintankitis - "Text".

A suggestion would be to bring this issue up with the guy who is currently MT while not during a raid. Bring to light your wish to tank as well as (possible) others as well. Show him what your strenghts and weaknesses are as well as what the other tank classes can bring to the table.

If he/she agrees to this then you have the start for a constructive discussion where you slowly talk the present MT into understanding that the days of a specific MT is over. Instead it is better to work as a team and allowing all tanks to try out the different roles of MT/OT/pickup tank etc to make sure that everyone is ready to handle the role.

Once they understand this and works with it, you got a stronger, faster and better tank team. If they flat out refuse to consider it, discuss your future role with them and either accept a new position or leave the guild/raid group. Do not stay as the "extra tank only when needed" or you will never be regarded as more than just that.