Maintankitis - How to cope?

[Esch]

Maintankitis - the need for a tank to continue as the MT in disregard of performance, strategies and/or encounters. Generally accepted as a holdover from BC era tanking, or logic that warriors are the 'best tank' over other tank classes.

That sums up most of my issue, in that I'm officially a gimmick DK tank. I recognize that I'm superiour in some roles (such as Ignis adds), it's frustrating to continue to get stuck in the OT role when facing farm content or situations where set ups ignore class strengths, such as shield tanks on trash adds (XT-002). The tank officer (warrior) is MT, and there isn't any discussion.

This hit a new 'high' when we looked General Vezaxx for the first time, just to see him & his room, and I asked about which strategy we'ld be using in a tell. I was curious whether the plan was to Kite or have me (Best gear DK) MT. The response was 'We kite!'. I realized then that he was going to MT it, and use the 10 man strategy he'ld employed, even though the strat posted on our website is the Tankspot 'DK tanks through enrage' strat by Lore. I pointed out IBF and was blown off. This made me realize exactly how 'replaceable' I was considered... as I wasn't the "Main Tank". In other words, the strategy was chosen partly for his experience, but also it favors him as the MT. Whether anyone else could do the role was a secondary, if that, consideration.

Of course, I'm welcome to MT Sarth, just to make the encounter trivial. Even money I'll be asked to attend for Vezaxx attempts before we clear Sarth/Malygos in hopes of a few more BiS drops those two have still.

So, how to deal with this? I'm content with the group, but he's a player in both the 10 & 25 teams I'm aquainted with so I can't avoid this issue without leaving entirely. Depending if I'm needed tonight, I'm debating between asking for an offnight, or just put on DPS gear and ignore the issue, but that doesn't solve the frustration.

[dirt]

I am in a very similar situation as I jumped to my new guild, oh about a month ago now. For me, it's the exact opposite, our MT is a DK or my GM which is a pally. But in fairness to him, he does switch out tanking duties.

My advice is this, for me it's never really been about being in the spotlight or whatever. I'm more of a group/guild success type. But, I admit it is hard to keep your ego in check at times. I guess(atleast for me) you always want to feel like you are contributing to the raids success. In the current raiding in Uldar, I don't see strict roles like MT or OT being so concrete as they use to be. That maybe a bigger guild issue for you. In my case, I realize I'll be picking up adds alot, throwing up sunders and demo shouts. I also went to a DPS off spec, because of the abundance of tanks or some fights only needing 1 or 2. My GM asked me to for the good of progression, so I did it. It can be frustrating, I'm not sure there is an exact answer on what to do. The grass is not always greener as they say, and I've come to find tanking spots at a premium these days.

If you are really struggling with excepting a new role, you could try talking to him and getting this all out in the open. If you can't play like that, another guild would seem to be the option. I'd try and get the off night, hell maybe talk with the warrior and see if he'd switch with you for a night, or trade off nights.

Good luck to you.

[Esch]

I'm flexible as I can be, IMO. I run Unholy 90% of the time to bump the caster DPS (warlocks love me), and I'm not complaining about something like Auraiya where it's a definite warrior fight. Heck, I can humor the OT roles I get tossed. The line is when it's less about strategies and more about him maintaining this #1 tank role.

Can he tank it? Certainly.
Should he? *Shrug*.
Did he consider other options? No.

That's what's getting to me, badly.

[orcstar]

If you need to go over fightmechanics to justify why YOU should be maintanking it you've already lost it.

Mainwannebetankitis - the need for a healer/dps/tank to become MT in disregard of previous efforts off current MT/authority/trust of others in the raid. Generally accepted as a I wannebe the MT but I'm not in a position to force it so I use my either rightly or wrongly assumed little advantages of a class while in reality the current MT can do the role just as good.

Been there and it wasn't even between tanks of different classes. One warriortank was disgruntled he wasn't thrown the MT position often enough. Yup, he could tank, but that was about it. We had 2 other (warrior) tanks at the time but besides they could tank they could analyze, lead and be the charismatic leader of the group. I'd choose any 2 of the to tank any new encounter over the 3rd, even if the guy new when to press which button at the right moment.
This guy had the same issues you have, and he wasn't even enother class.
But fact is: we were in SSC and kara's were free: I on my restoshaman was dragging the group through. Not him, even while he was tanking. This wrongly lead to trust issues in his abilities by other raiders but still.

It hardly ever works to argue your position to MT a boss if you're not on equal footage, if he's calling the shots and you're not: you'll have a rough time.
Our current DK tank is an excellent tank. But on one thing I kept pushing him from the start when we first entered Nax: "speak up speak up speak up". We started Nax and I Maintanked almost everything first time because I never hesitated to jump to the spot. In Ulduar things are different": our DK is much more up there, he's talks more and what he tells is right and people are used to listening to him now......and he never hesitates.

[Esch]

If you need to go over fightmechanics to justify why YOU should be maintanking it you've already lost it.

If strategies are based on the player, not abilities, I have concerns what is dictating the role I'm filling. I'm looking for suggestions, and I'm dissappointed you fail to recognize a desire for discussion. I have chosen to limit my discussion to the logic/topic & try to avoid a whiney rant. Please respect that, else your opinion won't be heard over your QQ.

You're also assuming I want to MT 'every' fight. I don't expect or demand that role. I know that on several fights I'm better serving as an OT, or even 'bad' dps.

It hardly ever works to argue your position to MT a boss if you're not on equal footage, if he's calling the shots and you're not: you'll have a rough time.

That's also called control. He doesn't have to surrender his spot unless he chooses to, or in the one case I've 'bumped' him, he was overruled by the raidleader at the request of the healers. I know where I stand when he's down, when (again) the raid leader has me step up to MT. I'ld like to get to start a fight in that role, instead of flipping presence, taunting, & hoping the healers keep up. Especially on fights where I have the advantage to a degree that it's not minor, but decisively obvious when compared without bias.

[Astemus]

This topic comes up alot time to time, it's not anything new with ulduar. When my guild first started in Naxx, we had some problems getting tanks, the GM and myself were the only tanks, and most of the first kills I would MT because my gear was better. He eventually went holy when we got a stable tank to fill in, a DK, but I was still MT simply because it was farm at that point and people wanted to clear as fast as possible. I began thinking that I might be guilty of this disease, so I started swapping him in for the easier fights and eventually i stepped down and let him MT all the fights simply to give him more experience.

Well, I still remember the first time I told him to MT a boss, he was pretty excited. And then when I switched to OT and let him MT full time, he was having a blast. So I can see why this becomes a problem, because I was in that position.

One thing I'd suggest, as other have, is to talk to the MT and tell him your problems. Or talk to another officer about it. It may be he is simply stepping up to help speed along kills. From how you describe it, i kind of doubt it, but it's an important first step. If that doesn't solve your problem, I don't think anything will, and if you're still unhappy, quit. If they really value you, they may ask you to come back and finally listen, or they won't and you can look elsewhere.

However, keep in mind what dirt said, tanking spots are at a premium. With so many tanks floating around, and so few tanking positions in raids, you may find it hard to relocate. But if you don't enjoy your position now, it may be better to be looking than be benched.

[Astemus]

Also, there may be another reason why you're always OT. The raid may have misgivings about your skill or gear. This is another reason to approach them and ask. There really isn't any reason you shouldn't be allowed to MT. Except maybe they're concerned that a warrior OT is like a DPS dead weight and a DK can still produce the same damage whether they're MT or OT.

[ÆtærñÅl]

Heres my take on what i have read. 1st to be the MT you need to be more vocal and take charge, but also u need to be humble enough to listen to those that have did this before. I have 2 great guys that are on my raid team that are letting me fall flat on my face as a learn to tank on the fly style for MTing. Its not the charisma or the lack of Being Vocal that makes the great MT its the fact that know one knows every raid fight perfect. I have noticed in my few raids so far that there is only 2 things that are standards 1. Iron Forge is always Defended and 2. you are only a great MT if your group trusts you. i have learned more reading the posts about what not to do then actual what to do.

[CyriliusTheDefender]

This happened at my previous guild. I suspect this happens a lot when the GM and the MT are the same person. They will always be the "default" MT tank and the burden of persuasion is on you to argue why he shouldn't be. Expect him to be backed up by the guild leadership, who are likely his friends. If, like me, you're a prot warrior, it's a difficult argument to make these days considering the sorry state of warrior tanks at the moment.

I confronted my prior GM about this once and got a lot of mumbles. I left the guild for a larger one with more tanks and more raids and have been much happier.

[Ciderhelm]

TankSpot's strategy is not "DK tanks it through surges," it's "DK/Druid/Warrior tanks it through surges." All three classes can easily go through each surge on their own cooldowns. The issue you had was one of strategy, not of class choice, because class choice does not prevent being stationary.

[cen1]

Heres my take on what i have read. 1st to be the MT you need to be more vocal and take charge, but also u need to be humble enough to listen to those that have did this before. I have learned more reading the posts about what not to do then actual what to do.

This has been my experience for the most part. In my raids I am usually the one tanking bosses, but I am not the raid leader, or the guild leader. I am usually the main tank because the healers put their faith in me, and I am told habitually that I am easier to heal than the others (druid/pally/dk).
Not to boost my own ego but I am skilled at my class and I know what needs to be done as a tank...
That being said, I am usually not vocal, I don't run the raid and so my input is usually observations or to the tank team... (taunt alert, debuff count, etc.)

I think the key to winning the MT position, is winning the hearts of your healers. It's like being a tour guide of a dangerous jungle tour. If you convince your group that you know the jungle and are the best guide for the tour, they will follow you, even if it costs some extra mana.

[Esch]

TankSpot's strategy is not "DK tanks it through surges," it's "DK/Druid/Warrior tanks it through surges." All three classes can easily go through each surge on their own cooldowns. The issue you had was one of strategy, not of class choice, because class choice does not prevent being stationary.

You've confused the crux of my concern. No single enounter in Ulduar is open to alternate tanks, at all. He steps up, and the rest of us get secondary roles. While Vezzax was something I'd hoped to 'star' in, it's just another example of the pattern I'm seeing.

I can count on one hand the number of MT roles given to other players, with only one being where he voluntarily stepped aside when the logic was handed to him. Otherwise, it's pulling teeth while trying to avoid drama. I'm a tank, not a friggin' dentist.

[cen1]

That's nothing more than the stubborness of your RL/MT. I'd think that if you have enough of the raid telling him there's a better solution, perhaps he'd see the light. That's hard to get around though, his pride and arrogance is only stunting your progression.

[Petninja]

Sorry, I don't see what's wrong with letting someone the guild trusts tank the boss. It sounds like your guild likes the old MT/OT formula, which is fine if it works. It doesn't make your role any less important.

I don't see what's wrong with a little kiting either. "Tank through enrage" to me sounds a lot like "headbutt through encounter". Kiting would have been the preferred method in any previous incarnation of the game but Bliz gave us thicker skulls for Wrath. If it's a viable strat why would you dismiss kiting as viable? If he's an old world warrior tank he's probably got a skill set that much of the newer tanking community may lack, which is kiting.

[Risky]

You've confused the crux of my concern. No single enounter in Ulduar is open to alternate tanks, at all. He steps up, and the rest of us get secondary roles. While Vezzax was something I'd hoped to 'star' in, it's just another example of the pattern I'm seeing.

I can count on one hand the number of MT roles given to other players, with only one being where he voluntarily stepped aside when the logic was handed to him. Otherwise, it's pulling teeth while trying to avoid drama. I'm a tank, not a friggin' dentist.

I'm confused about a couple things. I've seen this whole hierarchy of MT/OT break down pretty easily. A short-backstory. I'm a no name tank reroll that hit 70 the day Wotlk went live. I happened to app at the right time to one of the top raiding guilds on our server, and within a month landed the position of "MT". They had other tanks, but they liked me, my dedication, experience, and willingness to lead and help.
Fights with multiple tanks- IE; Yogg, Ignis, Iron Council, etc.
I may be the MT, but I handle adds on Ignis, because we don't have a tank DK on most the time for our tuesday run, and in my opinion, a monkey could tank Ignis, but the adds involve more movement and talent. You may think you're getting the OT position here, but personally I see it as the most important position in the fight. I hope you get my point in relation to the rest of these bosses.
Tank Drama
Tanks should be the complete opposite of drama. It sounds like you have more problems with the leadership provided by your MT, which is fine, because I'm like him. We do General with a warr kiting also, and it works perfectly. DK stationary tanking has been and will continue to get nerfed, and several guilds decided to do the fight as intended from the get-go. My DK wanted to tank- I said no. It wasn't my decision so much as an officer decision.
In conclusion, the best way to avoid drama is to not provide it in the first place. Your healers should ultimately decide who should tank what, but no one is going to learn anything without failure first-hand.

[Molohk]

I know it's a tough situation, every guild has it's own structure. Some are more flexible when it comes to roles while some others can be very inflexible about that sort of stuff, both systems can work fine, there's really no right or wrong here. All the encounters in Ulduar can be tanked by all the tanking classes, so it's more an issue of you wanting to tank than an issue of class choice. If you're not comfortable with the way your raid is set up, you should talk it over with the guild leadership and see if you can change things to where you feel more comfortable, if you can't change things and you're still not happy, you can always try to find another guild that suits your better.

This is not an issue of kiting vs stationary, it's obvious that a stationary strategy allows for more optimum raid performance for many guilds, but you don't need a DK to be stationary, and any strat can work. This is an issue of being given the chance to play the role you want to play, and it should be dealth with as such.

[Muffin Man]

You've confused the crux of my concern. No single enounter in Ulduar is open to alternate tanks, at all. He steps up, and the rest of us get secondary roles. While Vezzax was something I'd hoped to 'star' in, it's just another example of the pattern I'm seeing.

I can count on one hand the number of MT roles given to other players, with only one being where he voluntarily stepped aside when the logic was handed to him. Otherwise, it's pulling teeth while trying to avoid drama. I'm a tank, not a friggin' dentist.

Problem is, you keep throwing out mechanics reason/scenarios to say why you should be MT-ing and people here will shoot you down because that's not how MTs get chosen. There are no mechanic reasons why anyone should be the MT assuming you guys are both equally geared.

Your issue is a people issue, and we don't know the dynamics of your raid/guild to really help you. A few months ago we had a tank come here and rip his guild for not letting him MT anything even though he had the best gear (some users pointed out his gemming/enchanting/spec choices were questionable even though he *did* have good gear). A few of his guildies showed up and started ripping that guy a new one and the thread got closed. There were obvious guild issues for why he wasn't tanking more and it's really hard for anyone on the outside to give you any advice.

IMO, Orcstar isn't flaming you or qq-ing but turning the question around for another perspective on the issue; albeit harshly. But really, this is a people problem and rarely is one person 100% wrong and one 100% right (although if this *is* one of those cases you are best served finding a new guild).

[minrog]

He might be having the other tanks DPS on a lot of the fights because he is terrible at DPS. I had a DK tank for a while (I miss him ) who not only could tank anything I threw at him but also cranked out 6k dps when the other guys were only doing 4k or so. My DPS was middle of the pack so he didn't end up tanking an awful lot. Maybe it was a disservice to him, but our raids are rocky enough that I had to use every asset I could to kill the bosses in Naxx.

If a Prot Warrior isn't tanking the fight they are worthless dead weight (1k DPS in tank gear or something). Since we have managed to recruit a second Prot Warrior (who reads Tankspot!! heh) I've been leveling up a Druid so I can OT/DPS after my tanking duties are over and possibly step in as ranged DPS for other encounters.

As for the personality things you mentioned it sounds like he doesn't trust you. It could be ego but it could also be he doesn't want the raid to get used to you because he thinks you might leave or something. As mentioned above we can't analyze that aspect without further information.

[Shortypop]

Without knowing this may be a case of lack of communication, have you ever spoken directly to him outside of raids and asked to MT a couple of bosses each week? What do the other OTs feel?

[Gestar]

I agree with what others have said in that you should probably speak to the "MT". If there are no gear/skill disparities then by all-rights you should be able to main-tank a boss from time to time during a run. If you can't come to some type of an agreement then look for a better place.

You sound a bit shock by what you are experiencing. There are many tanks out there who want to be "the man" with tons of ego to go with it. If you do decide to move on I would suggest you query guilds about there existing tank base, needs and how they run things before joining. I for one don't believe in the idea of a "MT" for a raid. In 10 or 25 mans I make sure the other tanks and I rotate fights. This ensures that each of the tanks rotate responsibilities and is best in the long run for any guild and/or raid.

What happens to your current runs if this "MT" get sick, goes on vacation or quits? Do the runs just get cancelled?