+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 79

Thread: Class Explications by Satorri

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930

    Class Explications by Satorri

    So, there has been a fair amount of talking about the classes lately, and their relative strengths and values since Blizz actually opened the doors to class/spec quasi-equality among tanks. The kindly moderators here at TankSpot opened the doors to constructive discussions, revoking the previous restriction on class comparison, in the interest of helping. The one requested value that I ask people continue to respect is: this is for the sake of constructive discussion only, please refrain from baseless arguments or superlative "X is so much better than Y."

    I'm going to be reproducing some of my explorations from another thread that were buried under a lot of other material and have been requested as their own stand alone thread. If the moderators see fit this can be removed or relocated, but I'll try to continue on with my work here outside of the other diversions.

    As a short preface, I think this is valuable edification for tanks to see some of their own mechanics discussed with numbers, for tanks to see their co-tanks mechanics discussed, and for the sake of recognizing the strengths of each tanks for the sake of your raids to best match the tools you have to the needs of the raid instance.

    And as my universal disclaimer: in almost all matters the variation of the player's skills and use of their abilities, and the nuances of a living breathing raid encounter will always outweigh the tiny details of class abilities and generalized simulations.

    This thread is for the sake of discussion about how each of the 6 principle tank classes work (Prot Warriors, Prot Paladins, Feral Druid Bears, Blood DKs, Frost DKs, and Unholy DKs). Please forgive that this will not always be straight to the point as much of my work is freeform and not pre-plotted. I have a tendency to discover what is important as I work it out so my methods tend to steer themselves.

    Feel free to read and comment, but please keep input constructive and coherent, and whenever possible real numbers and stats are appreciated.


    Thanks for reading!
    Satorri
    Last edited by Satorri; 05-27-2009 at 01:32 PM.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    I think it is worthwhile to discuss and educate the community about the capabilities and skill sets of each tank class/spec. That said your method is cursory, subjective, and very much reductionist.

    So, rather than starting with what you think each tank is good at while admitting you don't know more than half the options well at all, why don't we compile how each class works and what tools they have?

    There are 6 tank class/specs, mind you, suitable for heavy end-game tanking:
    Prot Warrior
    Prot Paladin
    Bear-oriented Feral Druid
    Blood Death Knight
    Frost Death Knight
    Unholy Death Knight

    I make a point to separate the DK specs because each one operates very differently, has it's own strengths and weakness, and even it's own tanking tools and CDs.

    ==================================================
    If you want to compare important tanking factors there are many items and some of the class specs work in particularly unique ways. Here's a very brief summary in terms of survival:

    Warriors = Plate armor and shields, can dodge/parry/block. Warriors get 10% dmg reduction just from being in defensive stance. They can get 10% more armor from gear, 5% dodge, 5% parry, and 5% block directly from talents, along with +30% block value. They have a 30% chance to crit-block for double their normal block value. They get +6% to Strength, +6% to Stamina, and 6 expertise from talents. Against magic they get 6% spell dmg reduction and can get improved Spell Deflection (normal version can reflect a single spell cast on 10 sec CD, improved it can reflect from the four closest party members and reduces your chance to be hit with spells by 4%). Warriors get a few different CDs.
    Shield Block = 100% block chance for 10 sec, with double the base block value, on a 1 min CD, talentable down to 40 sec CD.
    Shield Wall = 60% less damage taken for 12 sec on 5 min CD. Talents can reduce this to 4 min CD (glyph commonly used can reduce the CD by 2 min more but reduces it to 40% dmg reduction).
    Last Stand = talented this increases the warrior's health by 30% for 20 sec on a 3 min CD. Glyphed it is only a 2 min CD.

    Additional special skills, warriors can intervene a target which will reduce their threat by 10% and take the next melee/ranged attack instead of the target on a 30 sec CD. Warrior's method of applying the de-hasting melee debuff to targets is improved Tclap which hits unlimited targets in a 10 yrd range (*fact check please*). Warriors can provide AP reducing shout (as can Lock's curse, Hunter pet special, and Bears) and health increasing shout (as can Lock demon and dps warriors).

    Paladins = Plate armor and shields, can dodge/block/parry. Paladins rely on Righteous Fury for threat buffing, which talented reduces all damage taken by 6%. They get 3% additional reduction in all damage taken by another talent, and when their health is below 35% health they take 30% less damage from everything on top of those. They get 6% less spell damage taken from a separate talent, this represents the only specific anti-magic ability. They get +15% strength, +14% stamina, and 6 expertise from talents. They also receive the standard 5% dodge and parry, +30% block value, and +10% armor from gear. From talents they have a 10% chance on being hit to increase their chance to block by 30% for 10 sec or 5 blocks, and can increase all healing effects on themselves by 5%. For CDs:
    Holy Shield = +30% chance to block for 10 sec or 8 blocks on 8 sec CD.
    Divine Plea = with one of the fancy new glyphs this not-survival move becomes an additional survival factor reducing all damage by 3%. Combined with Guarded By the Light, this can be up 100% of the time in any single fight.
    Divine Protection = 50% all damage reduction for 12 sec, 3 min CD. With prot talents it is reduced to a 2 min CD.
    Lay on Hands = gives a target (tank possibly) an amount of health equal to the pallies' max health (for the tank restores them to full health, can crit >.>) and a chunk of mana. 20 min CD can be talented down to 16 min which also makes it buff the targets armor by 25% for 15 sec, and can be glyphed to trim 5 more minutes off the CD to a minimum of 11 min CD fully buffed.

    Pallies can Hand of Protection to make a target immune to physical damage for 10 seconds on a 5 min CD. They can Hand of Salvation to reduce friendlies' threat on a 2 min CD. They can also hand of Sacrifice to take 30% of the damage for the target until it's transferred the tank's full health. A prot tank's aura's increase healing effects on everyone affected by 6%, though this is exclusive with Resto druid's tree aura. Pallies can increase party/raid members' fire, frost, or shadow resists by 130, or armor by 1200 (1800 with prot talents), though these can be offered by any pally in the raid. Prot pallies can provide Blessing of Sanctuary which reduces all damage taken by 3%, though that buff can be provided to other tanks in the same raid with a prot pally and it does not stack with a warrior's vigilance or a Disc Priest's Renewed Hope. Judgement and Seal of Light can restore health to the tank, though this too can be provided by other pallies in the raid. Pally's melee de-hasting ability is applied with their judgment so it is functionally single target only.

    Druid = Druids wear leather gear and get a big armor buff from being a bear (370%, fully talented it is 588%). Druids cannot parry or block, only dodge. In addition to the armor buff, bear form increases the druid's stamina by 25%. Talents give the bear +10% armor from gear, +10 Expertise, +10% dodge, +16% stamina, +6% Strength, +6% Agility, and 6% reduced chance to be crit. Bears get an ability called Savage Defense which is essentially a shield block type ability. When they crit they get a damage shield equal to 25% of their AP (functionally block chance = crit chance and block value = 25% of AP). This works out a bit different than block since it does not feature in the hit table, instead it is simply saved for the next hit (block is only possible if the strike isn't a miss/dodge/parry, but if you DO dodge, it doesn't store up that block that could've been for the next swing), bears do not have talents to buff this ability like warriors and pallies can buff their shield block ability. Bear CDs are as follows:
    Barkskin = Bear's answer to the other class's protection abilities, this reduces all dmg taken by 20% for 12 sec, on a 1 min CD.
    Frenzied Rejeneration = the bear converts up to 10 rage per second into health at a rate of 0.3% total health per point. Lasts 10 sec on a 3 min CD. Glyphed this also increases all healing effects on the druid by 20%. Note, this ability consumes rage so it is at the expense of dmg threat.
    Survival Instincts = +30% health for 20 seconds on a 3 min CD. Glyphed this becomes +45% health.

    Bears have Leader of the Pack that will allow them to regen 4% of their max health every time they crit, but this is graned raid wide by any feral druid in the party/raid. Bears provide the AP reducing ability that warriors do. The bear de-hasting debuff is applied by maul and mangle, so it is on restricted numbers of targets. Since you can only hit 1-3 targets at a time and requires two hits to stack it and one to maintain after that, it is not easy to maintain it on pulls with many targets.

    Death Knights (general) = DKs wear plate armor with no shield. They can dodge and parry, but not block. All DKs normally will take +15% armor from gear, +5% dodge, and 5% all dmg reduction that will be functionally up 95-100% of the time (requires both Blood runes on CD once every 10 sec). Specific additional details depend on tree. Frost Presence increases the DK's armor by 80% and health by 10%. DK's get 25% of their Strength as parry rating which buffs their parry chance by a noticeable amount (~4-7% depending on gear at 80). All DKs share 2 main survival CDs:
    Icebound Fortitude = 20% dmg reduction buffed by defense (~35% at 540 def) for 12 sec on a 1 min CD.
    Anti-magic Shell = reduces all magic damage by 75% for 5 sec or until it absorbs 50% of the DK's total health.

    Death Knights' melee de-hasting ability is applied with Frost Fever which is easily maintained on all targets in range and lasts 15-21 sec per application depending on talents.

    Blood = from the blood tree you can get +8% Strength, +6% Stamina, and +6 expertise. Also one talent will give the DK a chance equal to his parry chance to take 45% less damage from direct damage spells (as opposed to periodic spell dmg). Another reduces the damage of any hit that takes the tank below 35% health by 15% on a 15 sec hidden CD (only procs on hits larger than 5% of total health). Otherwise Blood relies heavily on self-healing to offset damage. 3 CDs, 0-2 passive effects, and one common ability are used for this. The CDs are:
    Vampiric Blood = increases the DK's total health by 15% and increases all healing effects on him by 35% for 20 sec (30 sec with glyph). 2 min CD.
    Mark of Blood = for 20 seconds or 20 hits, the enemy target affected heals who they damage for 4% of their total health. This heal triggers immediately after the damage like Earth Shield and Prayer of Mending so it won't overheal unless the hit is smaller than 4% and can be used to support other tanks and raid healing.
    Rune Tap = restores 10% of the tanks total health on a 1 min CD. Talented this becomes 13/16/20% of total health on a 50/40/30 sec CD (glyphed 22% on the tank and 10% to everyone else in the party).
    DK's have Death Strike which restores 5% of their health per disease on the target which will heal for 50% more (next patch) for a Blood DK. Two less common talents allow the DK to regenerate 4% of his damage done as health while tanking, and another can proc Blood Worms to heal the tank for small amounts as they do damage.

    Frost = from the Frost tree you can get +3% miss, +2% all dmg reduction, and 5 expertise. A special talent allows you a 30% chance when taking magic damage to get 50 resistance to that school of magic for 18 seconds, and that can stack up to 3 times and multiple types can be applied at the same time on individual timers (i.e. fire, frost, nature, arcane, etc). Frost buffs the duration of Icebound Fortitude up to 18 seconds, and has one CD only that it adds to the mix:
    Unbreakable Armor = all damage taken is reduced by a value equal to 5% of the DK's armor (~1k-1.6k depending on gear, glyph increases that value by 20%) for 20 sec on a 2 min CD.
    Frost DK's have access to Death Strike though it receives no buffing from Frost and is not the preferred threat tool for the cost.

    Unholy = from the Unholy tree, you can get 6% magic damage reduction, buffs AMS to reduce magic damage by 100%, and adds 2 CDs to improve survival:
    Anti-Magic Zone = this zone absorbs 75% of magic damage taken by all inside for 10 seconds up to a maximum buffed by AP (14-20k total dmg but will reduce the full 75% on every target from a single burst even if it surpasses the total allowance).
    Bone Shield = this applies 4 charges (6 glyphed). So long as at least one charge remains the DK takes 20% less damage from everything. Each time the DK takes damage a charge is consumed, though charges have a hidden CD (~2 sec). Shield lasts 5 min otherwise and has a 2 min CD.
    ==================================================

    Let's look at some passive buffed highlights:
    Warriors = +6% Str, +6 Expertise, +6% Stam, +10% armor from gear, +5% dodge, +5% parry, +5% block, +30% block value. 10% all dmg reduction, 6% spell dmge reduction. 30% chance for double value block.

    Pallies = +15% Str, +6 Expertise, +14% Stam, +10% armor from gear, +5% dodge, +5% parry, +30% block value. 9% all dmg reduction, 6% spell dmg reduction, 10% chance per hit to get +30% block chance for 10 sec. +5% heals on self.

    Bears = -6% chance to be crit, +6% Str, +6% Agi, +10 Expertise, +25/16% Stam (+45% combined), +10% armor from gear, +588% armor from gear, +10% dodge. Crits create a damage shield equal to 25% of the bear's AP to act as a physical damage shield.

    Blood DKs = +6% Str, +6 Exp, +6% Stam, +10% health, +15% armor from gear, +80% armor from gear, +5% dodge, 25% of Str as Parry rating. 5% all damage reduction with an additional maintained 5% all damage reduction. Chance equal to parry chance to reduce direct spell damage by 45%. Hits that take you below 35% are reduced by 15% on a 15 sec CD. Self-heals can be substantial and 'passive'.

    Frost DKs = +5 Exp, +10% health, +15% armor from gear, +80% armor from gear, +3% miss, +5% dodge. 7% all damage reduction, with an addition 5% damage reduction maintained. 30% chance on spell dmg taken to stack 50 resistance to that school for 18 sec, can stack up to 3 times.

    Unholy DKs = +5 Exp, +10% health, +15% armor from gear, +80% armor from gear, +5% dodge. 5% all damage reduction, with an addition 5% damage reduction maintained, 6% magic reduction.


    Beyond the passives, all the class/specs get a big dmg reducer:
    Warriors = 60% dmg reduced for 12 sec, 5 min CD (talented -1 min to CD, glyphed becomes 40% dmg reduction and -2 min to CD)
    Pallies = 50% dmg reduced for 12 sec, 2 min CD.
    Blood/Unholy DK = 35% (+/- with def) dmg reduced for 12 sec, 1 min CD.
    Frost DK = 35% (+/- with def) dmg reduced for 18 sec, 1 min CD.
    Bear = 20% dmg reduced for 12 sec, 1 min CD (glyph affects pvp only reducing chance to be crit further while it's up)

    Warriors and Pallies get very short CD abilities that buff their survival well:
    Warriors get guaranteed big blocks for 10 sec every 40, 25% uptime used on CD.
    Pallies get much 30% higher block chance and blocks do reflective damage, 100% uptime on a single target, more targets reduce the uptime.

    Bears, Warriors, and Blood DKs get a big activatable health buff. Bears' is +45% for 20 sec every 3 min. Warriors' is 30% for 20 sec every 3(2) min. Blood DKs' is +15% health for 20(30) sec every 2 min and comes with a +35% all healing buff.

    ================================================== =
    Now, using 8.5 tanking gear sets (only gear not trinkets, rings, necks, or weapons) to get an idea about how passive multipliers break down for mitigation and health:

    Bears
    Armor = 2400 * 1.10 * 6.25 = 16503 (+482 agi = +964 armor)
    Stam = 530 * 1.16 * 1.25 = 769 = 7505 health
    *7 non-meta sockets (3/2/2 RYB)

    Warriors
    Armor = 9538 *1.10 = 10492
    Stam = 671 * 1.06 = 711 = 6934 health
    *7 non-meta sockets (0/3/4)

    Paladins
    Armor = 9538 *1.10 = 10492
    Stam = 671 * 1.14 = 765 = 7469 health
    *7 non-meta sockets (4/2/1)

    Death Knights
    Armor = 9538 * 1.15 * 1.80 = 19744 (note: DKs cannot get shields)
    Blood Stam = 697 * 1.06 = 739 = 7208 health *1.10 = 7929 health
    Frost/Unholy Stam = 697 = 6790 health *1.10 = 7469 health
    *7 non-meta sockets (2/1/4)

    Armor Discussion
    Shields at this level are just shy of 8k armor, so bears actually end up slightly the lowest for armor from gear even though they will have much more agility and therefore armor than the plate wearers will, and will likely be able to get more armor buffing on itemization since they don't need defense and they get a lot of value from Agi which will be distinctly better buffed for them in raids. DK's bonuses put them slightly ahead of the others in total armor value thanks to the multipliers, though they do not have a block-type mitigation effect like the other 3 tank classes.

    Health Discussion
    Warriors get the least straight health from stamina, but they also rely on it the least in their survival mechanics. Pallies, Bears, and Frost/Unholy DKs have about the same from core pieces, but again, Bears will likely pick up more from additional pieces since their multipliers are significantly larger than the other classes. Pallies gravitate towards stamina because it works well with Ardent Defender and Touched by the Light (30% of Stam = Spellpower for a big threat buff), so they will likely pick up stamina items the same way, but they won't get quite as much mileage as bears will. Blood DKs get the most from core gear by a small margin, and will get ever so slightly higher value for stam stacking than Pallies, though Bears multipliers will still out-pace them by a decent margin. Blood DKs of all the class/specs arguably get the most out of stam stacking since they have 4 self-healing abilities they rely on to functionally mitigate damage that scale on total health, and Blood DK's are unique in the tanking kingdom for that reliance on self-heals. I haven't mentioned it previously, but DKs can also use Rune of Stoneskin Gargoyle which will increase their stam by another 2%.
    ==================================================

    Avoidance is hard to put a finger on as it diminishes and there are a variety of different non-set pieces that vary in value greatly for what they buff. Let me see what I can pull from core gear values, as we can say that anyone could get the other non-set pieces regardless of class/spec (though again, different classes value stats differently). I'll include Block % on this list, though they aren't avoidance they're easier to track here. Also, still speaking passively not factoring CDs.

    Bears
    Def Rating = 0
    Dodge Rating = 0
    Agi = 455 (note: druid weapons will likely also have high Agi values)
    *+10% dodge
    *damage shield is based on crit and AP for frequency and intensity respectively

    Warriors
    Def Rating = 257
    Dodge Rating = 217
    Parry Rating = 60
    Block Rating = 51 = 3.11%
    Block Value = 166 + (443 Str / 2) = 388
    *+5% dodge, +5% parry, +5% block
    *30% chance block value will double on block

    Paladins
    Def Rating = 268
    Dodge Rating = 153
    Parry Rating = 147
    Block Rating = 80 = 4.88%
    Block Value = 136 + (491 Str / 2) = 382
    *+5% dodge, +5% parry
    *10% chance on hit to +30% block

    Death Knights
    Def Rating = 294
    Dodge Rating = 165
    Parry Rating = 227 + (390 Str * 0.25) = 325
    *all DKs = +5% dodge
    *Frost +3% miss
    *all DKs have access to personal runes that add avoidance/Def skill but don't effect the diminishing returns, this is +4% parry or +25 def skill (=1% miss, 1% dodge, 1% parry) with +2% stam.

    Obviously the formulae are all rather messy and depend on what non-set pieces you are using so you know how diminishing returns break down. At a glimpse though we can tell that Warriors have about 30% more dodge on their core pieces, DK's will have 5 times the warrior's and over double the pally's parry rating, and the DK will have the most dodge/parry buffing from Def. DK's get the least % from talents but will get a nice buff from their rune (almost making up for that). Bears will rely very heavily on their Agility, though they match the Warriors and Pallies for raw avoidance from talents. In the wash, and based on conversations with tanks of other classes, I'd expect the avoidance values to go roughly in this order for similar gearing and gem/chant focus:
    DK > Bear > Warrior/Paladin
    Though I also expect the spread from highest to lowest to only be on the order of 4-8% at most.
    ==================================================

    The last comparison I'll touch on today is cooldowns. Each class/spec has their own unique tools to use through adversity. Again we'll disregard trinkets since these could/should be universally attainable and different classes will like different trinkets for their own reasons.

    Obviously, Bears have the least survival CDs, most of their CDs are threat focused. Barkskin is the smallest of the protection abilities, but it is on a fast timer like DKs. Survival Instincts gives them a significant health jump, and bears are already primed to have the largest health pools by a margin. Bears get the ability to regenerate a reasonably large amount of their health on a moderately long CD. Frenzied Regen is worth 3% max health, per second, for a total of 30% max health over 10 seconds in the best case. Glyphed this value alone increases to 36% plus it buffs other incoming heals. The 3 min CD leaves this as more of a once or twice per big epic boss fight. Bears are for all intents and purposes, designed to have a higher survival baseline before CDs.

    Paladins also sport a pretty small number of CDs but they are very potent. Their protection skill, Divine Protection, is solid at 50% and a 2 min CD, and glyphed they can take a voluntary hit to their own threat to get another 20% damage reduction for 10 sec on a 2 min CD with Hand of Salvation, though this has it's own risks of course. Holy Shield as an always up ability is very powerful against one or two targets as it is functionally up 100%. Against very large pulls it won't last quite as long though it is not an extreme reduction. Like Shield Block for Warriors this value increases noticeably against faster swings with smaller individual hits. Lay on Hands is about as collosal a save as you can get, but it is the only remaining 'tank' ability on such a long CD. It's amazing the moment you need it, but it can't be used casually.

    Warriors have versatile CDs that can suit a variety of needs. The Warrior protection CD, Shield Wall, is the biggest among the tanks, even though glyphed it matches Pallies, unglyphed it is a HUGE value but only usable half as often. Shield Block has a reasonably high coverage at 25% for ensuring that anything not avoided is blocked, making warriors pretty regularly capable of taking less physical damage particularly through fast swinging bosses or lots of small hits. Spell Reflection is a powerful ability in certain situations even if the target is immune to the effect being reflected.

    DK's originally were the CD tanking class. Smart rotation of CDs for coverage was essential as they would otherwise take noticeably more damage than any other tank. Things have changed and times have shifted. DK's still have very useful CDs but they are far less essential. IBF rings in as the most pivotal core ability. Compared to the equivolant talents for Pallies and Warriors it is very powerful thanks to its 1 min CD, but you'll find looking over the values that this is to make up for the wealth of other survival tools that the other classes have, which is most notably the ability to block. Each tree has its own system of CDs that it relies on. Frost is by far the least CD dependent, though it sports a longer duration IBF and Unbreakable Armor it will take less damage without cooldowns. Unholy relies entirely on Bone Shield for the bulk of the mitigation work, and while it works well in good gear it requires a fair amount of attentiveness to get the full value. So long as it is up Unholy is remarkably durable, and it is fantastic against large count pulls and multiple damage sources that come simultaneously. Blood, as I mentioned, is unique among the tanks as it uses self-heals to off-set damage taken. Used to their fullest these heals can actually put the Blood tank at a higher effective mitigation level than the other two specs, but that hinges heavily on the degree of the damage being taken, the skill of the tank timing the heals well, and frequent use of the additional heals. Vampiric Blood may be the single most powerful CD available in 25-man raids, as a Blood tank with a significant health pool will be able to be healed through just about anything for 30 sec.
    ==================================================

    Threat is a completely different matter, and I'll respond tomorrow with more on that, probably.

    I don't think any of the classes stands noticeably above the others, they each have their own strengths and weaknesses that match well or poorly with the different challenges available. No tank is incapable of tanking some particular scenario, and no tank is TOO good at tanking something particular, Blizz has seen to that.
    Last edited by Satorri; 07-06-2009 at 05:58 AM.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    irst things first, I was reading through my crit from yesterday (thanks for catching some of my slips, can't believe I forgot barkskin =O) and some clear themes came out. The rough classifications might be useful to people to see not some absolute value of tanks but rather identify their strengths, their niches:

    Warriors, Frost DKs = the balanced tanks. You can focus on part of their abilities to suit particular needs, but you can just as easily buff a different survival method with the same effectiveness. They may not be the top of the heap in any single method, but that they ARE versatile makes them a real tanking asset. While they can be tailored to meet more specific needs, these tanks excel at mixed paces and scales of damage, and at taking a relentless fast swing timed beating.

    Bears, Blood DKs = the massive meat shields. These tanks can get the best effect from REALLY trumping up the health pool and stacking health like it's a job. If the tank is going to take big hits infrequently, this is a good tank for it.

    Unholy DKs = The avoidance tank. DK's have the potential to sport the highest avoidance of any tank class, and for Unholy Knights Bone Shield plays VERY well with avoidance. The supreme avoidance tank is ideal for fights like XT or Ignis where you will take big single swings and when one of those misses the fight becomes that much easier.

    Protadins = these are a little tricky within my gross generalization above. They will stack health because it is a versatile stat buffing their threat as well, they have strong shield block abilities making them great for fast attacks like the balanced tanks, though they tend to do better when you play up one of those two aspects rather than avoidance. Paladins I'd also deem the 9 lives tanks. With Lay on Hands, Ardent Defender, bubbles, and the ability for high block coverage, they can be very hard to kill and can catch themselves from the brink of death very noticeably.

    These are GROSS generalizations, and there are crossovers (Bears combine the high health pool with generous avoidance and a block ability that gets saved up to play nicely with said avoidance, for example, making them also fit into the first and third categories as well).



    Now the thing I wanted to touch on, far more briefly than yesterday's tirade is threat!

    Tanking Threat Styles

    The reason I am very reluctant to talk about threat is because that is a game not dictated as much by being smart in your setup prior to a fight and a sideline activity during the fight (note: active tanks use CDs very deliberately to survive better than the folks who just stand there and get hit), but really threat has EVERYTHING to do with the player activity. A hard working tank will out threat anyone who is slow on their toes, regardless of class, spec, and often regardless of gear (barring extreme differences). The aspect on threat that matters is not that we beat each other in threat, but that we stay ahead of the dps, that is the critical measurement of threat generation.

    What I do want to focus here is on the tools the tanks use, where their strengths lie (yes Warriors and Blood DKs can tank groups they just work a little harder for it than a Pally or Unholy DK), and what assignments they are best suited for on threat demands. In general there are 4 very general threat needs in a raid environment:

    1.) The Big Boss = this is the giant boss who has 200 mil health and you will be fighting for the next 10 minutes (hyperbole aside you know who I'm talking about). This fight usually has more demands of its tank on survival and all that matters is that the tank can roll ahead of the dps on the long stretch, dps can start slowly or take pauses it won't be the end of the world.

    2.) The Bruiser/Nuke-site = this is the nasty single monster, add, or boss phase, that needs to be killed quickly. The longer it is up the more strained the raid will become as this mob plies its ability. Against this target you need 'snap' threat, someone who can open up with a big burst and the moves to keep ahead of a fast burn for a short period.

    3.) The Crack Squad = a small group of 3-5 mobs. Usually this squad will have a bruiser and/or caster or mobs of varying concern and ability. Here the tanks will have to know the priority and communicate the order to the dps. Here, for whatever reason, you need to focus at least one or two of the mobs down first to avoid their threat. This usually requires attentive threat on one or two targets first, with support threat on the additional targets. Here the tank needs to be able to spill over on additional targets while keeping leading threat on the active target (here's an example where a good tank makes a difference as they can be building 90% on the main target 50% on the second target and better than baseline threat on the others).

    4.) The Swarm! = these pulls are filled with large amounts of small mobs. Here they're all equally a nuisance and any one or two wouldn't be an issue at all, but en masse they can tear through a not-tank. Here the needs are large target-count threat without specific needed focus. If one or two come loose, it's not the end of the world or an instant one-shot, and often the tank just needs to switch to these targets to pull them back in.

    Strategies on these pulls can vary, and in raids you're rarely tanking alone, but these are good examples for illustrating the relative strengths of each class.

    I want to compare just the tools of each class. Please bear in mind that player use of these abilities will make all the difference and will be the defining difference between success and failure. Any class/spec can tank any of the above situations but the ease of it can be roughly determined by class/spec.

    Warriors
    Warriors are about as versatile with threat tools as they are with survival tools. The general tools:
    Shield Slam, Devastate = these are the single target hammers that the various mechanics will support as the central mainstay of your active rotation.
    Revenge = this is the mechanic that has a positive feedback with survival and makes the threat difference between being the target and not. Dodge/parry/blocks let you get a hard hitting cheap hit.
    Heroic Strike = this is functionally a buffing/dumping threat element. It does not interrupt your normal move set, but can be applied additionally to convert rage build up into threat. The more abuse the tank takes the more available this ability is.
    Shockwave/Cleave/Tclap = The aoe tools. Shockwave allows both a conal threat for as many people as you can group effectively, with a stun that actually supports stable positioning and a bit of mini-cc for easing the pull. Cleave is the multiple target substitute for Heroic Strike where you can pay a bit more to get a slightly smaller hit on more than just the one target. Tclap, aside from being a key debuff, allows the warrior to get a bit of snap baseline on an unlimited target count in range. Because of the CDs on Shockwave and Tclap, these abilities aren't ideal for large pull tanking, but used well they most certainly do the job.
    Damage Shields = not an active move, whenever the warrior takes a hit (read: not avoids), the attacker takes damage. This is a positive buff to any number of targets, but helps form strong foundation threat on off-targets and large groups so the warrior is covered as they do the target switching dance.

    Warriors, played well, are phenomenal burst tanks. Compounded with Shield Block, trinkets, sharp gearing, and Sword and Board, Shield Slam can spike almost ridiculously to set up a HUGE immediate threat lead. The other tools have very powerful feedback mechanisms as a main tank, where avoidance will buff your threat with cheap big hits of Revenge (further supporting Shield Slam), and taking hits will fuel the warrior's rage allowing more liberal use of heroic strikes. Warriors are monsters on snap threat (class 2), strong on focusing while holding off targets (class 3) and carrying bosses indefinitely (class 1), and are weakest at large counts of small mobs (class 4) though with smart use of Tclap, damage shields, strategic Shockwaves, and tabbed cleaves those pulls are pretty easily accomplished. Warriors also sport an AoE unclassified taunt that can be a clincher in an unexpected pull or if large groups start to fragment.

    Bears
    Bears are a very interesting tank class in that they're designed to have gear itemization like dpsers. Obviously when focusing on Bear'ing you will load in survival values like health, armor, and avoidance, but the gear will come with distinct amounts of crit, haste, and AP which most other tanks won't get so directly. Currently, only bears get the benefit of Agility itemized on their tanking gear (*cry*) as well. Bear's use the following tools for their threat:
    Maul = the equivalent of the Warrior's Heroic Strike, this does not interrupt the bear's other moves but can be layered on to burn extra rage into threat. Glyphed this will hit two targets which can be veyr nice for supporting multi-target tanking as bears have no cleave (bear with me, =D).
    Mangle = while buffing your and your raid's bleeds, this ability adds a nice spot of damage as well. Used with Berserk this becomes a cleave for a short period allowing the bear to set up shot on multiple targets at once.
    Lacerate = a stacking bleed with bonus threat (*fact check* still there?) on application. Originally somewhat akin to a warrior's devastate in spam in the holes, but now used rather less on non-single target needs.
    Swipe = this is THE aoe ability. Now thankfully for bears this is omni-directional, albeit short ranged. Swipe allows the bear to anger everything around it, and as opposed to Tclap the semi-analogous ability from warriors it does not have a CD, so in sufficient rage situations it can be used pretty heavily.

    Bears can setup really powerful rolling threat on one or two targets and they can do it fast enough that you can miss that it isn't big bursty threat, per se. Bears generally have to work the hardest for aoe threat as they don't have a lot of tools for it and if mobs are carelessly scattered by quick aoe dps, it can be harder for the bear to reliably setup long term threat until they're recollected. Bears, like warriors, do sport an unclassified unlimited target-count aoe taunt. Bears excel on single targets (class 1) and small group focused threat (class 3), they are strong with bruisers (class 2) though they don't burst the same as warriors so they take a second seat in terms of quick switch snap threat, and they are slightly weaker than warriors on large groups (class 4). Given the opportunity to collect the pull well, bears can cover the swarms just fine, but if dps are careless and rush the pulls it can be a full-time job for the bear to keep it under wraps.

    Paladins
    Paladin's threat tools nowadays are more significantly small group oriented, but they're relatively the same with groups of 1-3. The paladin primary tools are as follows:
    Judgment = this is one small burst slipped into the mix of other abilities. Often the debuff it applies is what is more important, but it is a definite threat in application when it is used.
    Shield of Righteousness = single target big smash that scales nicely with the paladin's block value. This allows the Protadin to support larger burst on a single target beyond the other multi-target abilities. This supports snap threat, though not quite to the scale of Shield Slam for warriors.
    Hammer of the Righteous = this hits 3 targets, not unlike cleave, though it hits rather harder than a warriors cleave for a relatively cheaper cost. This ability makes it very easy to tank 3 targets, but with careful targeting it can also be used to support better than base aggro on 5 targets at a time.
    Avenger's Shield = hits 3 targets at range, slowing their movement and silencing them. This is one of the more expensive abilities but it can be very powerful in setting up pulls or for buffing threat where mana/damage or plentiful.
    Consecration = this sets an aoe at the protadin's feet that ticks continuously on anyone standing on it for it's duration. This sets a solid baseline and does not require active targeting to maintain.
    Exorcism = while not specifically a 'tanking' ability this is a terribly valuable ranged threat tool which can set a substatial chunk of threat on a single target, and automatically crits on undead.
    Seal of ____ = seals contribute a great deal to threat, or to utility with less threat. This ranges from the Martyr/Blood which is less ideal for tanking since it hurts the paladin but does strong damage, to Vengeance/Corruption which sets stacking dots on multiple targets and buffs judgement damage per stack (and applies on each target of HotR!), to Righteousness which is just solid and consistant threat buffing. Seal of Wisdom can be used to buff mana if needed, Seal of Life for a little extra healing, or Seal of Justice, infrequently in the need of keeping mobs from running (don't know that happens in raids ever any more). Seal choice is support threat, but it adds up.
    Holy Wrath = only usable on undead and demons, but this is a big aoe burst and stun. It is important when you need it, though it is expensive. As this expansion has a significant undead theme, this cannot be forgotten or discounted.
    Holy Shield = the original reflective damage shield. Holy Shield will be up a significant proportion of the time and every shield block will do reflective damage. As Protadins will block a large amount of what they don't avoid this is very valuable.

    Protadins, relatively speaking, have a LOT of tools, but they are fairly un-nuanced. What I mean is, you have a list of big hits and you just have to focus on the ones that suit your needs in each moment, there is little required by way of setup to do bigger hits. Protadins, it must be noted, have a very important ability in Avenging Wrath when it is used. For the duration their damage (threat) will be markably increased, this is not a common tanking ability in terms of scale, though Bears do quite well with Berserk and King of the Jungle buffed Enrage. Using the controlled bursts Paladins excel at bruisers and nuke hits (class 2), they are very strong when played well against swarms (class 4) and bosses (class 1), and they tank focused fire within groups better than average (class 3). In terms of threat, relative to the Warriors and Bears, Paladins are much stronger in all situations, though there seem to be two vital aspects to better than average pally threat. First, with all of the many tools the tank who picks the optimal tools for the situation on each CD can do better than the one who spams whichever they see first. Second, Protadins are the one tank who relies on mana. While they have strong tools to keep it coming in, Spiritual Attunement, Judge of Wisdom, BoSanc, and now rolling Divine Pleas, but should mana run low from lack of attention or bad luck, it can severely dampen the Protadin's threat for a period. This can be vulnerable in situations where mana is drained, sapped, or blocked.

    Death Knights (general)
    At the core, the DK class has a great many tools that it shares whether it is dpsing or tanking, so in some respects threat plays out like dpsing, but that is not quite accurate. Death Knights, regardless of spec, do rely on their diseases for damage and effect buffing. This can be used differently by different specs though. At the core are the following threat tool elements:
    Icy Touch / Frost Fever = IT is a ranged shot of frost damage that applies the essential Frost Fever for a dot and melee de-hasting. This will not be much threat for Blood/Unholy, but it is better with frost, and the disease will add up when maintained and allowed to tick continually on all targets.
    Plague Strike / Blood Plague = a melee range, rough equivalent to IT, this strike doesn't do too much damage, but the disease it applies is another key factor that can be setup up and allowed to roll on all targets to buff foundation threat.
    Rune Strike = this is the DK's answer to Revenge for Warriors. It triggers when the DK dodges or parries. It hits for a very large amount and has bonus threat to boot. This becomes a massive feature in every spec's threat as gear improves. Most DK's macro this ability into their other moves since, like Heroic Strike and Maul it fires 'on next swing.' It is worth noting it replaces the melee swing and cannot be dodged or parried.
    Death and Decay = this is a fixed aoe zone that does damage per second with bonus threat, though it comes at a high price. Unlike the pally consecration it can be targetted and dropped at range. This is a valuable tool though it is most potent for Unholy, a valuable utility for Blood though easily used more sparingly, and is least required for Frost, though it can be used to good supportive effect.
    Death Coil = this consumes runic power for a decent amount of damage and can be used at range. As moves go this is a bit low on damage and is best used when at range to add a little threat and in rune blackouts (GCDs where all 6 runes are on CD). It is rarely better than a move costing runes. Frost will rarely ever use this as Frost Strike replaces is mostly (except for ranged utility). Blood's will not hit as hard though it is the only use for RP, and Unholy's hits the hardest though it is really only used as described above.
    Blood Stike = this is a simple one rune hit that scales with diseases. It is used by Frost and Unholy to convert Blood runes, but is replaced in almost all situations by Heart Strike for Blood.
    Blood Boil = alternative to Blood/Heart Stike this will hit an unlimited number of targets within range of the target with a burst. It hits smaller than HS on each target but the lack of limit on count makes it very valuable for large groups. It benefits from having a disease on the target, but not per disease. It hits harder for Blood and Unholy but it is not uncommon for Frost to buff aoe threat either.
    Beyond these each spec will use it's own set of abilities and methodologies. There is some overlap, and mechanics are not wholey different, but identifying the spec of the DK tank your with will help you understand the flavor of their strengths and styles.

    Blood
    Blood moves and buffs focus on physical damage. The usual focus moves are as follows:
    Heart Strike = this is the primary spam, costing 1 blood rune. It hits two targets for a pretty heavy hit, and triggers several side effects depending on the finer points of the spec. The damage is distinctly increased for each disease on the target.
    Death Strike = this is a very powerful tool in the Blood Knight's arsenal for both threat and survival. In addition to a reasonable amount of damage it restores 5% (7.5% in the next patch with talents) of the DK's total health per disease. This healing threat should not be disregarded. Protadins will average 4% or so of their threat from mana gains, and Blood DKs can average upwards of 4-6% of their threat from heals.

    Blood gets a relatively small contribution from disease ticks, but having them both set and maintained is key to setting a solid foundation to threat, and without two diseases on the target threat is decreased from the other moves as well. Relative to other class/specs Blood is about on par with Bears and slightly behind Warriors on large group aoe threat, though, like both, with hard work the Blood Knight can still hold threat just fine. Like bears, it does take a bit of collecting and foundation to hold well. Blood is not bursty relative to other tanking classes, but like bears it rolls very solid long term threat.

    Frost
    Frost relies more heavily on spell effects and procs. Frost gets a lot of benefit from Frost Fever, but the only particular value it gets from Blood Plague is for the additional dot and a bit of damage buffing on Oblit, BS, and BB when it is used. The primary Frost tools are as follows:
    Howling Blast = this is an unlimited target heavy hitting frost blast. With full buffing this is a huge single hit on every target it hits, though it has an 8 sec CD. With talents the CD can be refreshed with Oblit. On aoe pulls there is no other class/spec that can burst to this degree on as many targets.
    Obliterate = this is a massive single target smash and a mainstay of frost's method. It hits marginally harder than HB but only hits the one target.
    Frost Strike = this melee swing hits extremely hard as assited by the fact that it is frost damage and ignores armor completely. It cannot be dodged/parried/blocked either which helps buff its total effect against bosses nicely. This does not just replace DC as an RP use, it actually makes it very valuable for a Frost tank to have more RP and use it preferentially.

    Frost uses double-rune cost moves heavily and generates a lot of space for RP dumping. Among the DK specs this is the most bursty and can match a warrior for heavy burst threat. Often times though the fastest threat comes at the expense of cruising threat down the road. Even for this fast burst it is best done with Frost Fever preset. Frost DKs are very strong on target switching burst threat. Frost's threat profile is very spikey as a result of relying on single large hits over many small hits.

    Unholy
    Unholy's backbone is in stacking dot effects. Unholy's diseases will tick substantially harder than the other two specs, as will it's DnD. To go with that Unholy uses the following tools:
    Scourge Strike = Unholy's big truck move. This will hit quite hard, and as shadow damage it ignores armor completely. Generally speaking this is a primary item to spam when possible, though it is used more to fill between other CDs than it is used preferentially to other moves.
    Corpse Explosion = this uses RP to detonate a corpse (doesn't work on elementals and mechanicals, stupid Udluar >.>) doing a burst of shadow damage to all mobs in the area. This is a very valuable burst tool on class 4 pulls where the fight won't last long and burst is essential.
    Unholy Blight = point for point, after RS, this is the most damage for your RP, provided it can tick out its full duration. It hits an unlimited number of targets in close range and ticks every second. This passive set-and-maintain damage makes the DK a walking threat zone. This is generally worth having up at all times except in the case of aoe groups that will die in less than 8 seconds (where CE is better use first and on CD).

    Unholy's nature buffs some of the standard moves very nicely, particularly BB and DS. BB will get a nice buff from Unholy's spell dmg buffing, and DS will benefit from the third disease. Setting both diseases, DnD, UB, and pinging BB and CE is ludicrous amounts of unlimited-target threat that I haven't seen matched by the other classes. What's more it is almost entirely passive (up to BB and CE) allowing the Unholy Knight to then focus on the important primary targets. Unholy, a bit more than the other DK specs, takes a bit of wind-up to set things in motion, but once it is set up the threat formidable and unmatchable for shear volume on large aoe pulls.

    DK's vary spec to spec. Blood is very powerful against Boss and Bruisers (classes 1 and 2), is strong against focused groups (class 3), and is weaker against swarms (class 4). Frost is powerful snap threat on multiple targets making it exceptional for bruisers (class 2) and swarms (class 4), though the bursty nature of its threat make it slightly idealized for cruising on bosses (class 1) and focused threat on group pulls (class 3). Understand though, like protadins, Frost Knights will do these very well, it's just not as smooth and requires a little more attentiveness to keep it consistant. Unholy is extraordinary for large swarms (class 4) and focused groups (class 3). Provided sufficient setup Unholy Knights can hold bosses just fine (class 1), though they are not ideal for Bruisers and snap threat (class 2).
    ================================================== =

    I want to stress this again as people throw around a great deal of undeserved superlatives.

    Any tank class/spec can tank any encounter in the game perfectly effectively. Smart teams will use their tank that best matches the particular challenge of the fight, and understanding the tools can help you match the tanks well.

    When it comes to tanking, player skill trumps all else for the largest contributing factor to performance. In terms of survival that player skill is 80% preparation in setting up your gear well, and 20% in positioning pulls smartly and using your CDs at the right time. In terms of threat, the player skill is entirely about attention to detail. Picking up targets effectively, putting threat where it's needed as it's needed, and using the right tools for the situation make the difference between a good tank and a great tank.

    We are fortunate to play a game that can include such a variable and interactive level of play.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,442
    Er...Satorri?

    6 tanking classes? >.>

    EDIT: ooooh...you confuzzled me. That's four tanking classes, but you broke one down in three. May wanna add Unrelenting Assault then as a seventh btw >.>

    Edit 2: I borked your thread >.< Sorry!

    Tankspot Moderator
    Twitter: Follow me on Twitter! @Krenian

    "Damnit!" - Jack Bauer, 24


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    **Bear with me, I'm sandboxing a bit.

    So as an addendum to what I did above, I constructed sets using all 5 pieces of the t8.5 tanking sets, and first I added identical and average non-set epics (bracers, belt, boots, neck, rings) to match for both, and then added appropriate weapons for each. All items are 226 level (232 weapons), so no hardmode gear. I also made a second warrior set with more block gear. I did take Rune Edge for the DK set since that would be an ideal survival weapon and would provide additional armor from the Agi. I tried to avoid pieces with too many additional sockets that could leave too much open, and I left off trinkets as there are no Ulduar trinkets with armor and so those will be used to boost avoidance, health, or defense as the individual needs. I'm working on the assumption that most people aren't socketing agility so I'll disregard gems for now as well.

    Here's the comparison: (from left to right)
    DK Tank / Warrior Tank (non-block) / Warrior Tank (block focus)

    So for a quick comparison,

    Armor
    DK = 14382 on set (13500 from gear eligible for armor buffs)
    = (13500 x 1.15 x 1.80) + 882 (non-multipliable) + 242 (Agi)
    = 29069

    Warrior (general set) = 22272 (21390 multipliable)
    = (21390 x 1.10) + 882 (non-multx) + 0 (Agi)
    = 24411

    Warrior (block set) = 21390 (all multipliable)
    = 21390 x 1.10
    = 23529

    From the slightly dated, but still accurate calculator:

    So against a boss (83):
    DK = 63.6%
    Warrior (gen) = 59.5%
    Warrior (blck) = 58.6%

    Warriors get 10% all dmg reduction in Def stance. DK's get 5% from Frost Pres, and can upkeep 5% from Blade Barrier (we'll call it 100% uptime for simplicity). So, both have that 10% additional and we'll call that a wash.

    That puts the DK at a 4.1% edge over the general set and 5% over the block set.

    The DK's set will have about 9% miss, 27% dodge, and 22% parry (taking generic talents, and average values), for a total of 58% avoidance.

    To factor out block we need to know the % possibility and the value blocked:
    Block chance is added in the hit table below miss/dodge/parry and above regular hits. So, if your miss+dodge+parry is greater than 100%-block chance your block chance will be shrunken (but you'll never take an unblocked hit). From the gear sets avoidance (without accounting for trinkets which will be at most 1.5-2% dodge/parry each, or gems) is only about 23% dodge, 15% parry, and 9% miss, totalling less than 50% so reasonable block chances will not be close to occluded even adding trinkets and pure avoidance gems. We'll round up to 50% for a round number to consider when we factor in Shield Block. Block chance factoring block rating and defense rating should be about (note this doesn't factor using block related trinkets):
    General set = 17.6%
    Block set = 24.0%

    For block value, you take half your strength and add your block value from your shield and gear, and multiply by 1.3 (talent). For the two sets presented:
    General set = 1079
    Block set = 1420

    Block value can 'crit' at a 30% chance and double the block value on that block. For Shield Block it has a 10 sec uptime on a 40 sec CD or a 25% uptime. During that time 50% of the swings taken will be blocked (the 50% not avoided).

    So, let's create the scenario. The boss, fully de-hasted has a 2.4 sec swing timer and a 50k unmitigated hit.

    Here's a very general breakdown:
    DK
    From armor and stance/blade barrier, hits that connect will do 16380 dmg. In 8 min of continual swings (200 swings), 84 will connect, all for full value. On average that's 2867 dps incoming.

    Warrior (gen)
    From armor, hits that connect will do 18225 dmg. In 8 min of continual swings (200 swings), 100 will connect, and (with shield block on CD) 51 of those will be blocked (25 of which for double base value). Of the 26 normal blocks, 16 will be reduced by 1079, 8 will crit and be reduced by 2158. Of the 25 shield block blocked, 17 will be reduced by 2158, and 8 will be reduced by 4316. So, those blocked hits will actually connect for 17146, 16067, and 13909 respectively. The net incoming damage is 3501 dps incoming.

    Warrior (block)
    From armor, hits that connect will do 18630 dmg. In 8 min of continual swings (200 swings), 100 will connect, and (with shield block on CD) 61 of those will be blocked (25 of which for double base value). Of the 36 normal blocks, 25 will be reduced by 1420, 11 will crit and be reduced by 2840. Of the 25 shield block blocked, 17 will be reduced by 2840, and 8 will be reduced by 5680. So, those blocked hits will actually connect for 17210, 15790, and 12950 respectively. The net incoming damage is 3546 dps incoming.

    At these numbers it may look like the DK has a bit of an edge, but here's where napkin math fails. Shield blocks reduce incoming damage by a static amount and block chances don't diminish. Borrowing from a friend's actual block set, if the warrior had 24k armor (61.3% dmg reduction), 31% block, and 1491 block value, with 49% avoidance, using the same metric as above:
    200 swings
    98 swings avoided
    30 unmitigated swings for 17415
    33 normal blocks for 15924
    14 normal crit blocks for 14433
    17 shield block normal blocks for 14433
    8 shield block crit blocks for 11451
    ============================
    Total incoming dps = 3306

    And using only my passive values as a Blood DK, I have 30.7k armor worth 66.8% reduction, and 52.5% avoidance. Again, same scenario:
    200 swings
    105 swings avoided
    95 unmitigated swings for 14940
    ============================
    Total incoming dps = 2957

    This does not account for use of trinkets, CDs other than Shield Block, or raid buffs (which will scale differently). At least these are real numbers.

    A further curiosity, as his block set uses Lavanthor's Talisman (+440 bv for 20 sec on a 2 min CD), if he uses that on CD, matching it with Shield Block every time he can (which would be 50% of the trinket's used duration), that's 50% of the Shield Blocked blocks get +440 and 50% of the non-SB'd blocks get +440. Copying down from the above and adjusting the values slightly:
    200 swings
    98 swings avoided
    28 unmitigated swings for 17415
    33 normal blocks for 15924 (16 for 15484)
    14 normal crit blocks for 14433 (7 for 13553)
    17 shield block normal blocks for 14433 (8 for 13553)
    8 shield block crit blocks for 11451 (4 for 9691)
    ============================
    Total incoming dps = 2161 (use of that trinket on CD, with optimal timing and results gave a HUGE reduction, a full 33%)

    So, to compare, my one trinket, the JC crafted Monarch Crab, gives about 7.6% dodge on use, for 10 sec every 2 min. Conveniently the two trinkets are the same level. Again, I'll pull down my numbers from above:
    200 swings
    120 swings avoided
    80 unmitigated swings for 14940
    ============================
    Total incoming dps = 2490 (notice here the reduction is not as sizeable, the block value trinket in the block value set results in a much more significant reduction though it does so by taking more hits for smaller values. He actually takes 102 hits many of which are blocked while I only take 80 hits).

    I'll spare some of the repeat math, we'll take (removing trinkets again) that the real BV set functionally reduces the average swing damage by 3030 on the functional average block chance of 36% (31% buffed by Shield Block on CD).

    So, let's consider 2 different scenarios. Before our boss had a 2.0 sec (2.4 de-hasted) swing time and a 50k unmitigated hit. So let's try:
    Boss A: 1.0 sec swing timer, 25k hit
    Boss B: 3.0 sec swing timer, 75k hit
    Note, all 3 have the same unmitigated dps of 25k.

    I'll keep using the real numbers from above, I'll just refer to them as DK and Warrior. So we'll take an 8 min window, for Boss A dehasted (1.2 sec swing) that is 400 swings, and for Boss B (3.6 sec swing) that is 133 swings.
    DK
    Boss A = 190 swings connect for 8300
    Boss B = 63 swings connect for 24900
    ============================
    Boss A = incoming dps reduced to 3285
    Boss B = incoming dps reduced to 3268

    Warrior
    Boss A = 204 swings not avoided: 144 blocked hit for 6645, 60 connect for 9675
    Boss B = 68 swings not avoided: 48 blocked hit for 25995, 20 connect for 29025
    ============================
    Boss A = incoming dps reduced to 3203
    Boss B = incoming dps reduced to 3809

    So, for the DK swing speed and scale doesn't make much difference. For the Warrior, as makes sense logically, faster swings are more greatly reduced. The faster the attacks the better the warrior fairs, and here the warrior surpasses the DK on Boss A, but falls behind on Boss B, worse than the original average swinging boss, though it's all within a reasonable margin.


    (crit post to be continued with consideration for Bears and Paladins)

    Thanks for reading, if you made it this far. =)
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    To add to my previous considerations I wanted to look at the distinction in the blocking style of a Paladin and the Savage Defense tool for Bears. **Disclaimer: I know Savage Defense isn't working fully as intended right now, and I'll need some input to understanding exactly how it procs, but I'll give it a start.**

    To continue the same boss comparison, here are our 3 bosses:
    Boss A = 25k unmitigated, 1.0 sec swing speed
    Boss B = 50k unmitigated, 2.0 sec swing speed
    Boss C = 75k unmitigated, 3.0 sec swing speed

    I'll pull real stats from a few more of my well-geared tank friends:
    Protadin: (we'll add imp Dev aura and BoSanc) 27220 armor (64.1% dmg reduction), 52.6% avoidance, 16.5% base block chance, 1316 block value (+458 for 5 sec after judging, judging on CD that's 5 sec out of every 8, or 62.5% uptime or 1602 avg block value), we'll assume 100% uptime on Holy Shield. Redoubt proc will vary with boss attack speed. 12% all damage reduction (he doesn't have Glyph of Divine Plea so I'll leave that out).

    We'll take an 8 minute window on each boss.

    Protadin
    Boss A (1.2 sec swings, 25k unmitigated hit, out of 400 swings)
    210 swings avoided
    *1 swing every 12 sec will proc redoubt on avg so, we'll give it an 83% uptime, so we'll average the effective block rate as 71.5% which is more than the unavoided swings, and we'll count every hit that connects as a block*
    190 blocked swings hit for average 6296
    =========================================
    Boss B (2.4 sec swings, 50k unmitigated hit, out of 200 swings)
    105 swings avoided
    *1 swing every 24 seconds average will proc Redoubt, so we'll call it a 42% uptime, and we'll average the effective block rate as 59%, just over the non-avoided, so we'll say, again, all non-avoided strikes get blocked*
    95 blocked swings hit for average 14194
    =========================================
    Boss C (3.6 sec swings, 75k unmitigated hit, out of 133 swings)
    70 swings avoided
    *1 swing every 36 seconds average will proc Redoubt, so we'll call it a 28% uptime, and we'll average the effective block rate as 55%, just over the non-avoided, so we'll say, again, all non-avoided strikes get blocked*
    63 blocked swings hit for average 22092
    =========================================
    Boss A = 2492 incoming dps
    Boss B = 2809 incoming dps
    Boss C = 2900 incoming dps

    Bear: 33073 armor (68.5%, he is heavily geared for armor), 46% avoidance, 34.4% crit chance (for proc chance), 4652 AP (for shield size), all in bear form. We'll say 3 out of every 4 GCD's is a move that can crit (let me know if that's too conservative or not enough). That means a shield will proc roughly once every 6 secs, and will absorb 1163.

    Bear
    Boss A (1.2 sec swings, 25k unmitigated hit, out of 400 swings)
    184 swings avoided
    *1 shield every 6 seconds will catch avg about 1 out of 5 hits, so ~20% block chance*
    80 hits shielded hit for 5767
    136 hits connect directly for 6930
    =========================================
    Boss B (2.4 sec swings, 50k unmitigated hit, out of 200 swings)
    92 swings avoided
    *1 shield every 6 seconds will catch avg about 1 out of 2.5 hits, so ~40% block chance*
    80 hits shielded hit for 12697
    28 hits connect directly for 13860
    =========================================
    Boss C (3.6 sec swings, 75k unmitigated hit, out of 133 swings)
    61 swings avoided
    *1 shield every 6 seconds will catch avg about 1 out of 1.7 hits, so ~60% block chance which is more than avg avoid so we'll say all unavoided are shielded*
    72 hits shielded hit for 19627
    =========================================
    Boss A = 2925 incoming dps
    Boss B = 2925 incoming dps
    Boss C = 2944 incoming dps



    Some big themes and little revelations come out of this for me. Paladins seem to be reasonably, on average, able to block everything they don't avoid. With significant block value that can make for signficant protection. I did give the pally a bit of an edge the others didn't have in allowing a couple buffs like BoSanc and Devo Aura, but a prot pally won't likely be without that. Bears are capable of scary amounts of armor, I see from inspecting my friend, and I did not expect how SD would work *in theory.* It has an interesting interplay with incoming attack speed. The slower the attacks the more likely the bear is to block everything (it's logical but it hadn't occured to me like that). Obviously because bears have no talents or ways to buff that block value beyond just AP, the block value has the capacity to be somewhat smaller than the shield tanks, but it is not by much.

    Overall themes to pull in, not surprisingly, Warriors and Paladins do better and better on incoming damage the faster and smaller the attacks (a la trash or just fast swinging bosses), though relating this to trash will change things slightly for the protadin. The warrior should remiain unphased, but if the paladin takes more than 1 physical swing per second, factoring avoidance, he may actually slip from 100% uptime on Holy Shield.


    Some valuable assumptions to note for aspiring tanks or folks who didn't read every little detail or between the lines:
    • All bosses were fully dehasted (20%, as opposed to the unbuffed 12%). Without any de-hasting (Tclap, Frost Fever, Infected Wounds, or Judge of Just), or with unimproved dehasting the bosses would have swings as follows:
    Boss A = 480 swings (0%) / 429 swings (12%) / 400 swings (20%)
    Boss B = 240 swings (0%) / 214 swings (12%) / 200 swings (20%)
    Boss C = 160 swings (0%) / 143 swings (12%) / 133 swings (20%)

    De-hasting is very valuable, and getting full-improved dehaste will
    save an appreciable amount of damage.
    • Warriors are using Shield Block on CD, Paladins are using Holy Shield on CD. Both these abilities will fall off pretty quickly in how much they save you depending on how sharp you are in using them.
    • Bear bubbles are tricky as they actually proc off of what the bear does for threat, not incoming attacks. That said it's possible to get a range of effect depending on how the bear tanks. I'm assuming Lacerate crits cannot proc the effect, though I'm also assuming the bear is using Lacerate regularly but not spamming it. It was hard to account for Maul/melee swings and Mangle/Swipe. On multi-target pulls I'm assuming Swipe crits on each additional target can increase the proc chance, but on bosses I think my estimate was probably still conservative.
    • CD's are a major tool and the different classes use CDs differently. DKs can IBF on CD and it is a significant degree of protection, and each spec has its own long CD that is used differently. Paladin's long CDs are somewhat less accessible though they are HUGE when they're used (LoH is about the biggest lifesaver you could have as a tank). Bears don't have much by way of survival CDs, with only really a threat-sacrificing self heal, health boost, and a protections skill at half the value of the DK's on the same CD. Warrior CDs actually have the most variety, and can cover the most situations, but they are still on a slightly longer CD.
    It's an odd thing, looking at these numbers you'd expect the warriors to be taking the most damage, but I've never seen that really to be the case. I suppose it's easy to be misled by A.) the vagueries of this very general simulation, B.) the difference in the gear sets of the avatars selected (the warrior was in his block/threat set, and I happen to know he uses different sets when he needs to be more durable), and C.) there are always factors that are not well-accounted for.


    I'll repeat my interests and concerns here, a big part of the reason I've filled this thread with long-winded, detailed discussions is that, rather than giving people grounds for a pity party, I want people to see the difference in how each class works. I want people to appreciate that the differences between each class/spec is not as severe as you might think, or may be led to believe by the gross generalized complaints you hear. The game is nowhere near imbalanced. Are there details that could be adjusted or balanced a little closer? Sure, but no one is without value and no tank is incapable of any tanking assignment, you are just often best suited by picking the class that matches the challenge best from your *team*. And if you don't play on a team (how you know: you don't cooperate or strategize, you just run in and try to Rambo it), I'm sorry you're missing out on the best quality of the endgame world.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Just for you Tony I edited my initial post. I'm trying to adjust some of the public thinking on tanking away from DK's being considered an appropriate single category for tanks in these kinds of discussions. Each of the three specs plays very differently and has very particular flavors when it comes to where they fit best on tanking assignments.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    740
    Warriors, Frost DKs = the balanced tanks
    Balanced = bad. If you don't excel at something, you'll be replaced by someone who does it better. It's not good to be "balanced" in WoW raiding, because you will be replaced, especially with the introduction of dual spec. Now fortunately, tanks are balanced closely enough that skill overcomes any slight advantage one tanking class has in any niche, so there's no issue here. I just thought it was important to bring up

    Overall though, I'm not sure you can compare tank performance by looking at averages. In an average scenario, the tank really shouldn't be dying. Don't get me wrong - damage accumulated over the course of the fight is an important number, for sure. The more valuable comparison, however, is how tanks perform at extremes. It is at extremes that class abilities make a difference. If your raid is heavily damaged, you're down a healer or two, and adds are running loose, you will notice the difference between a DK and a druid, a paladin and a warrior, or even among the different DK specs. The average numbers may tell you they're equal, but in that situation they most certainly are not.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    111
    Does the calculation below take into account the upcoming armour nerf to DK's?

    Armor
    DK = 14382 on set (13500 from gear eligible for armor buffs)
    = (13500 x 1.15 x 1.80) + 882 (non-multipliable) + 242 (Agi)
    = 29069

    Warrior (general set) = 22272 (21390 multipliable)
    = (21390 x 1.10) + 882 (non-multx) + 0 (Agi)
    = 24411

    Warrior (block set) = 21390 (all multipliable)
    = 21390 x 1.10
    = 23529

    From the slightly dated, but still accurate calculator:

    So against a boss (83):
    DK = 63.6%
    Warrior (gen) = 59.5%
    Warrior (blck) = 58.6%

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    281
    No. The change to Frost Presence was announced after Satorri's original post. The revised numbers are:

    DK = 14382 on set (13500 from gear eligible for armor buffs)
    = (13500 x 1.15 x 1.60) + 882 (non-multipliable) + 242 (Agi)
    = 24840

    DK = 60.7% (2.6% reduction)
    Warrior (gen) = 59.5%
    Warrior (blck) = 58.6%

    (warriors noted for comparison again)
    Last edited by Esch; 05-27-2009 at 03:56 PM. Reason: clarification of % change to DK mitigation

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,756
    The assumtion that every hit is blocked (as you did for paladins and druids) doesn't quite work out.

    I should dig up some of my programming skills and write a program to brute-force your numbers for you, I'll send you a private mail once I have it up and running.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,022
    Satorri,

    Just some nit picks:

    Our health and damage mitigation numbers are multiplicative, not additive (tested this many times):

    Health: 1.06*1.08 = 1.1448 or a 14.48% stamina multiplier, not 14%
    Mitigation: (1-0.03)*(1-0.06)*(1-0.03) = 0.884446 or a mitigation of 11.5554%, not 12%

    If you are doing the "9%" one, it is (1-0.03)*(1-0.06) = 0.9118 or 8.82% mitigation, not 9%

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    111
    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    No. The change to Frost Presence was announced after Satorri's original post. The revised numbers are:

    DK = 14382 on set (13500 from gear eligible for armor buffs)
    = (13500 x 1.15 x 1.60) + 882 (non-multipliable) + 242 (Agi)
    = 24840

    DK = 60.7% (2.6% reduction)
    Warrior (gen) = 59.5%
    Warrior (blck) = 58.6%

    (warriors noted for comparison again)
    Hmm I'm confuzzled, my base eligible armour is 13400 so if I use that calc it should look like this?
    DK = 13916 on set (13400 from gear eligible for armor buffs)
    = (13400 x 1.15 x 1.60) + 882 (what is this?) (non-multipliable) + 268 (Agi, I'm not using HoW for this)
    = 25806 how did I end up 1k higher when I started with less base armour?

    I dont have anticipation included, and even so using my current frost presence my armour in gome reports 24834, with anticipation it's 28519 and with HoW it's 28829.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    DK's have Death Strike which restores 5% of their health per disease on the target which will heal for 50% more (next patch) for a Blood DK.
    I supossed that this will be implemented with 3.1.2 but I have noticed that it isn't.... ¿¿when does this will be implemented?? The tooltip is already mentioning that 50% increased healing in live, but it doesn't works that way

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    I'll work my way up from the bottom on responses. =)

    Raddik, this is in fact the way it works now. My DS's (talented from Blood is the important part) heal me for 7300 in raid buffs.

    Vlad, the formula here is:
    Final armor = [Armor from gear that has an armor weight, i.e. Plate x 1.15 (toughness) x 1.60 (/cry Frost Pres)] + (Armor from rings/neck/trinkets/weapons) + (Agility x 2)

    I didn't account for racial base agility, HoW, socketed agility, etc either. And Esch, I'm not sure how, but your math came out low, that formula changed to 1.60 from Frost Pres works out to be 25964 armor or 63% reduction. It's not going to kill us, but it is a nerf, about 3k armor for well geared DKs.

    Jere, you are of course correct, but I short-handed and did all the classes that way for simpler formulae. The correct damage reduction values are:
    Warrior = 10% (def stance)
    Paladin = 6% (righteous fury) x 3% (Shield of the Templar) = 8.82%
    Bear = 12% (Protector of the Pack
    DK = 5% (Frost Pres) x 5% (Blade Barrier) = 9.75%

    And it is worth noting that BoSanc/Renewed Hope/Vigilance are multiplicative as well, meaning they won't quite be a full 3% either. The protection CD, Barkskin, IBF, Divine Protection, and Shield Wall are applied to damage after these mechanics as well (multiplicative). So for a quick example, after armor a DK takes, say 20k from a hit, Blade Barrier is up, in Frost Pres, and he pops IBF:
    = 5% x 5% x 41% = 53.25% so the hit is now 10650

    Martie, that would be really cool to share. I made very simplifying assumptions. The block everything idea is merely a big number statistical average of course. Because Redoubt and Savage Defense depend on a random chance there will be gaps simply because you don't have a regular interval on the proc, you will have attempted procs in the hidden CD (for Redoubt, I don't know if Savage Defense is restricted that way) and you will miss procs afterward. Anything you can bring to the table to give us a more realistic (but graspable) feel for this data would be great. If you need more exact variables I can give you less pretty math more like the real thing.

    And Shiz, I disagree with the severity of your first statement. Balanced is not bad. I understand your point though. When you're dealing with min/max hardcore raid construction (like what was required for Sunwell) you will want to match the best possible tank to the situation and the tank who's not best at anything will be left behind. The reality is that this is not Sunwell and there is no tank who canNOT tank anything currently in the game. One may make it marginally easier than another, and maybe that margin is significant when you're first learning it or if you're trying it with other challenges (like running short on heals). Generally speaking, balanced is anything but bad, and it is actually VERY valuable to a new faction of the raid world. Specifically, I'm talking about the small groups of friends who raid. Guilds consisting of 10-12 people who just like playing together. They don't have access to any possible tank, so having a balanced tank will let them put their best foot forward on all the fights they don't have an optimal match for. This is the beauty of what Blizz has opened up to their customers.

    On your second comment, my intent, initially, is not to use this as a X vs Y vs Z analysis, it is simply for the sake of illustrating how tank mechanics work. If you understand the mechanics better you understand how the tank break down. I'll go one farther and say that you don't need healers to die or for it to be a make or break situation to see class differences, you will see them on the status quo, and in both normal and emergency situations player skill with their character will FAR FAR outweigh any nuancy difference in these numbers. Tank A takes 2% more damage than Tank B on this fight, in theory? But Tank A also happens to use his CDs very smartly, has a good sense of timing and positioning, and so actually in 7 out of 10 fights he averages taking 8% LESS damage. That's the way things tend to work in the 'real' (game) world.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Posts
    302
    In "health discussion" where you are discussing tank CDs, there's a typo with divine protection:

    "Their protection skill, Divine Protection, is solid at 40% and a 2 min CD"

    It's 50% on a 2 minute CD which makes it 10% more than a glyphed shield wall, I think it's right elsewhere in the posts though .

    Also why is Glyph of Divine Plea excluded from the calculation? It's a flat 3% reduction to all damage, which is pretty huge for a constant effect. I guess perhaps excluding all glyphs is easier from a modeling PoV, although I think divine plea is unique in being the only global damage reduction glyph available to any tank.

    Also hey, first time poster!

    <3

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    I actually want to clarify one small aspect for any readers who may not understand all the funky math or who have trouble following the formulae.

    Each stat has its own effect and place in the calculation of your damage. I'll explain the rough sequence the calculation goes through. Bear in mind this is actually over-dissected and all of this happens in a moment. The different categories are not so split out, I just did this for ease of the reader:

    1. Each boss has a designated 'unmitigated' damage value for their swing, special ability, etc. All of them usually have a small damage range (roughly +/- 5%, though some have a much bigger range, like XT).
    2. The boss attacks and the system handles the chance to hit (see hit table discussions for more specifics). Assuming he does not miss, you do not dodge or parry, the computer assesses damage from that unmitigated value. We'll call that number D.
    3. Now it's time for the defender's stats to kick in. Armor is first and is a set factor usually on the order of 58-68% physical damage reduction, so the factor the damage is multiplied by is 100%-Armor%. We'll call this number A (will be a number like 0.3562). So the damage is now D x A.
    4. The game scans through your static and passive damage reduction from talents and stances first and multiplies each factor. We'll call the stance factor S, this includes Defensive Stance, Frost Pres, Protector of the Pack, and Shield of the Templar. So the factor, S, like above will look like 0.9500. The damage is now D x A x S.
    5. The game now scans through active long term buffs, like Righteous Fury, Blessing of Sanctuary, Vigilance, etc. We'll call this factor L, and will, like the above reducers be 100%-BuffReduction%, so a number like 0.9700. The damage is now D x A x S x L1 x L2 x ...
    6. The game now looks at short duration or quick use buffs, like Renewed Hope, IBF, Shield Wall, Blade Barrier, etc. These quick buffs are the factored on the remaining damage. We'll call these values Q for short. They are factored the same as all those above. The damage is now D x A x S x L1 x L2 x Q1 x Q2.
    So to use that, identify each of your reduction buffs and add them on one at a time. We'll take a boss swing of 100k for ease. And we'll imagine a fictional DK.
    The DK has 30k armor, so it reduces damage by 66.32%. A = 0.3368
    She has Frost Pres which reduces the damage by 5%. S = 0.9500
    She has Blessing of Sanc which reduces damage by 3%. L = 0.9700
    She has Blade Barrier up reducing damage by 5%. Q1 = 0.9500
    She popped IBF so the damage is being reduced by another 40%. Q2 = 0.6000

    So, the formula for actual damage taken will be:
    Dmg(Actual) = (100,000) x 0.3368 x 0.9500 x 0.9700 x 0.9500 x 0.6000
    = 17,691

    For those not fluent in math, the order in which you multiply these numbers doesn't matter, it will always come out to the same value (Associative Property).

    If the attack is blocked, it adds a separate non-multiplicative value. A static amount to reduce the hit, this value is equal to your block value. So we'll do the same as above with a Protadin:
    The Pally has 28k armor, so it reduces damage by 64.77%. A = 0.3523
    She has SotT which reduces the damage by 3%. S = 0.9700
    She has Blessing of Sanc which reduces damage by 3%. L1 = 0.9700
    She has Imp Righteous Fury which reduces damage by 6%. L2 = 0.9400
    She popped Divine Protection to reduce another 50%. Q1 = 0.5000
    And she blocked with a block value of 1500.

    So, the formula for actual damage taken will be:
    Dmg(Actual) = [(100,000) x 0.3523 x 0.9700 x 0.9700 x 0.9400 x 0.5000] - 1500
    = 14,080

    As opposed to above, the multiplications must happen first (still regardless of order within), but the subtraction of the shield block value does not occur until after the multiplications. This does actually work well in the favor of shield block-capable classes since % multipliers somewhat reduce each others' effective reduction, the static block value is not functionally altered by any other survival mechanics.

    So, to restate an old and pretty well-known fact, hopefully with a bit more basis for the not-well-read-theorycrafters, this is what people mean by these bonuses being multiplicative instead of additive. Taking the Pally from right above:
    Additive: 64.77% + 3% +3% + 6% + 50% = 126.77%
    Multiplicative: 35.23% x 97% x 97% x 94% x 50% = 15.58% gets through (or 84.42% reduction)
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    207
    I'm an id10t who doesn't read the whole thing...

    Great job!

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,022
    It's Commutativity silly goose, not Associativity.

    Associativity deals with the order of the operators themselves while commutativity deals with the order of the operands themselves. You really aren't moving "multiplies" as much as what is being multiplied.

    /randommathnuttiness

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorii
    Protadins = these are a little tricky within my gross generalization above. They will stack health because it is a versatile stat buffing their threat as well, they have strong shield block abilities making them great for fast attacks like the balanced tanks, though they tend to do better when you play up one of those two aspects rather than avoidance. Paladins I'd also deem the 9 lives tanks. With Lay on Hands, Ardent Defender, bubbles, and the ability for high block coverage, they can be very hard to kill and can catch themselves from the brink of death very noticeably.
    Lay on Hands is a poor survivability cool down since it's on the GCD. Morever, it has a 15 minute glyphed cool down meaning you're using it roughly once every three encounters, which is not acceptable for progression raiding.

    Ardent Defender is great for trash. You won't hear many Paladins signing its graces when a boss's single hit is on the range of 18-22k thus skipping AD's effective range entirely.

    Paladins are the easiest tanks to kill in hard mode encounters because large burst damage is what kills tanks. Since we have a 50% damage reduction every two minutes and tank gib abilities occur more frequently than this, this makes Paladin an inferior tank.

    I wish there were a fast hitting, moderate damage encounter. Algalon seems like a fast hitting, high damage encounter where even GC himself admits that DKs are great at tanking.
    Last edited by Nadir_; 05-28-2009 at 04:00 PM.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts