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Thread: Vigilance question(s)

  1. #1
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    Vigilance question(s)

    I have been wondering about Vigiliance for quite a long time, but i just havent got around to posting anything. Theres some aspects of Vigilance that i want to know more about, in some situations like this:

    Scenario One

    Maintanking a boss (Example: XT-002) i will place Vigilance onto one of the ranged DPS'ers who will take care of the adds which spawn during the Heart Phase. Most of the time it will be Warlocks or Mages who get this Viglance buff on fights like this.

    If i am maintanking XT-002, will the damage which the player with Vigilance does get transferred to XT-002's loot table (Thus helping me maintain threat on XT-002) or will it only help in gaining threat on the adds which spawn during the Heart phases - Thus, not really helping at all?

    If this is the case, would it be better to put Vigilance onto someone who is stationary on XT-002 at all times - Like Rogues or DPS Warriors etc.

    Scenario Two

    On fights which require two maintanks (Example: Patchwerk OR Mimiron) if you have two Warrior tanks, and they each place a Vigilance upon each other (Therefor allowing the damage reduction) would the threat gained from the Vigilance be negated where there wouldnt be a threat increase?

    I use Mimiron as an example just for Phase1 if the DPS isnt high enough to a point, but thats just one small example.

    Scenario Three

    Finally, if you put Vigilance onto a Rogue who uses Tricks of the Trade for certain fights (Example: Kologarn or Malygos) will you get a bigger threat boost during the encounter, or would it be best served going to an alternate DPS who concentrates on the boss?


    I think that is my questions for Vigilance now though, they're the situations which i have been wondering about for quite some time.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    2/3 answers

    The basic rule for Vigilance is that 10% of the threat that they would be assigned is instead assigned to you.

    Therefore,
    Scenario 1: You would gain threat on the mobs that the mage/warlock is dps'ing. You probably don't want this threat, but the damage reduction to the mage/warlock may offset that concern, especially if the mobs are killed anyway.

    Scenario 2: 10% of yours goes to the other tank while 10% of hers goes to you. If there's a big difference between the two, you may feel it. If there's not, you won't notice any difference on threat, and you'll only experience the benefit of the damage reduction.

    Scenario 3: I'm sorry. I don't know how Vigilance vs. Tricks of the Trade (or Misdirect) would work.

  3. #3
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    Don't forget all the uses of vigilance:

    a) Threat transfer (10% from the player you place it on)
    b) Damage reduction (3% for the the player you place it on)
    c) Taunt refresher (if the player you place it on is stuck, your taunt is refreshed).

    The threat transfer is just that - a 10% threat transfer of what ever the player you've placed it on is gaining threat from. You bring this up in all your scenarios somewhat and in the end in regards of threat transfer you in general want to place it on the person with highest aggro that has the hardest time reducing his threat. In the end this often is a dps warriors from my experience, but defiantly not always (mages at Hodir spike for example).

    If you have a dps class giving you a threat boost of some sort (rogues and hunters) these MIGHT be the best to vigilance even if they give you this boost, but it doesn't have to be that way. Often guilds have different skilled players as well so in many cases that can break "what should be" and "what is" for you.

    If you're two warrior co-tanking a boss like Mimiron and you don't suffer threat issues from DPS you can place vigilance on one-another for all phases virtually. It might not always be optimal but can be. For phase one it's very viable if swapping tanks for cool-downs to have vigilance active for the damage reduction and taunt-refresh rather than the threat transfer. Lowering the current MT with 10% threat can cause issues, but not always.

    The Damage reduction isn't that much to talk about. You remove 3% damage which in some cases are completely neglect-able and some it's very nice to have (Mimirons plasma blast for instance).

    The taunt-refresh is as stated extreamly useful on some fights. Being an add-tank on the Freya encounter you can simply place vigilance on the tank of Freya her self. This tank has zero threat issues where you will be running about picking up a lot of mobs over the course of the fight. Reducing the damage in-take on the Freya tank is of course also nice.

    Personally I use vigilance with care. On a fight like Mimiron 10 man I'm the only tank. I here place vigilance on the dps-warrior in Phase 1, 2 and 4 where whom ever is tanking the head in phase 3 gains my vigilance (lock or a healer). I can taunt everything with ease on the ground when ever needed. On something like the Thorim even I'd place it on a burst dps:er in the tunnel (mage or hunter) for a TPS boost. When we enter the arena I'll place it on the 2:nd tank for our Unbalansing Strike rotations as long as threat isn't an issue where I'd then place it on a DPS.

    Not sure if this answers your questions a bit

    Regards
    Roarc

  4. #4
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    Since Diminishing Returns on Taunt, having a taunt refresh by mutually Vigilancing another warrior tank is a really really dumb idea.

    Two other classes provide the damage reduction, and threat in Ulduar is a lot more sensitive than it is in Naxxlolmas.

  5. #5
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    1. For XT-002, it is probably a much better idea to put it on someone that will be on the boss for the entire duration. The only thing you are really gaining by putting it on an add DPS is the damage reduction which is not that big of a deal for them. Similarly for Mimiron P3 if you are tanking the head, I put it on a ranged DPS class that will be on the head full time.

    2. Trading Vigilance like that seems fairly useless. The only thing you get from that is really the damage reduction (which does not stack with BoS or the Disc priest buff). Also, never put it on a prot pally since it actually overwrites BoS and they will send you nasty tells :P

    3. I am unsure of this, but I have also wondered how threat REDUCTION abilities work in regards to this as well. Do things like FD or Invis or vanish affect the threat gains from this ability?

    I typically put this on players who have no way to dump threat - ret pallies and enchancement shaman are good options if you have good ones. It depends on the fight specifics though and the various roles people are playing. I will also occiassionally put it on a raid healer sometimes if they are having issues pulling aggro (this is rarely an issue tbh).

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalphir View Post
    Since Diminishing Returns on Taunt, having a taunt refresh by mutually Vigilancing another warrior tank is a really really dumb idea.

    Two other classes provide the damage reduction, and threat in Ulduar is a lot more sensitive than it is in Naxxlolmas.
    The point of a refreshed taunt is not to keep taunting the same mob though, lol. If you are dealing with adds, you can taunt + attack and move on to the next mob - the mob will be dead before you loose aggro again. Not useful for every fight, but there are certainly some where that can be effective.

  7. #7
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    Also - when there are Paladins around, the damage reduction components of BoS and Vigilance do not stack. You can still have both buffs on the character bars, but that's because the secondary effects aren't the same - so "More Powerful Spell" doesn't happen.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sark View Post
    I typically put this on players who have no way to dump threat - ret pallies and enchancement shaman are good options if you have good ones. It depends on the fight specifics though and the various roles people are playing. I will also occiassionally put it on a raid healer sometimes if they are having issues pulling aggro (this is rarely an issue tbh).
    This is probably the opposite of how you should be using vigilance.
    Classes without threat dumps have large talented and passive threat reductions (Normally ~30%). Classes with threat dumps (Most mages / some locks / etc.) Don't have any threat reducing talents, meaning they are causing a lot more threat than those without.

    Mages/Arms Warriors/Unholy DKs (check that they don't have the threat talent still) / Rogues are what I normally see at the top of threat. Try using vigilance on one of them, and it's likely no one in your raid will even have to use a threat dump.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ieatpugs View Post
    Classes without threat dumps have large talented and passive threat reductions (Normally ~30%).
    If memory serves, most (all?) pure DPS classes like mages and rogues have a decent amount of threat reduction naturally built into their classes. They usually have some talents for minor threat reduction, but they don't need the 30% type numbers because they already get so much automatically.


    Edit:
    Threat - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

    All things being equal (which of course they never are), it looks like Warlocks and Mages are the best bet? I always thought they got some passive threat reductions as well.
    Last edited by Sark; 05-28-2009 at 03:50 PM.

  10. #10
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    It's surprising about Mages isn't it? They don't really get anything except invis on a 3 min timer (even iceblock isn't a threat wipe), but traditionally they aren't a threat problem unless they get too AoE happy. Warlocks have a much better threat dump, but they hate using it from my experience...

    Of course the real question becomes... why are Hunters always so bad at managing threat =p.

  11. #11
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    I know it may not be a ton, but vigilance takes a little bit of the pain of seal of blood off the top.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalphir View Post
    Since Diminishing Returns on Taunt, having a taunt refresh by mutually Vigilancing another warrior tank is a really really dumb idea.

    Two other classes provide the damage reduction, and threat in Ulduar is a lot more sensitive than it is in Naxxlolmas.
    No it's not a dumb idea YES if you are dumb you can hit diminishing returns.

    Try something tanks having to exchange targets like 4 horsemen if your taunt misses soon as it hits other tank you can taunt again rather than then having to try and get over and get a mocking blow on it. Other examples are tank exchange on gluth and flamescale.

    The other example people have already mentioned picking up lots of adds. I do it on KT if I am adds tank when DBM announces adds coming I stick it on MT it gives you more options in picking them up fast before they smash a healer.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin Man View Post
    Of course the real question becomes... why are Hunters always so bad at managing threat =p.
    As a Hunter, I just have to say, we produce a crap ton of threat. Or at least myself and the ones we run with do, and alot of ulduar bosses like to ignore Feign Death, making it a problem at times. I am curious what FD does in regards to Vigilance though.

    Apologies for derailing the thread.

  14. #14
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    One thing I would suggest is to come up with a way to easily move your Vigilance. I use grid for my unit frames. Using grid, along with Clique, I can easily cast a spell on any raid member, without changing my target. I have vigilance bound to my middle mouse button; If I get into a situation where I see someone riding my threat, I can quickly and easily move Vigilance to that person by putting my mouse over their name in the unit frame and clicking my middle mouse button. That may or may not work for you, depending on your setup.. but finding something that allows you to move it easily can be really helpful.

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