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Thread: Ghost talks about pally mana regen

  1. #1
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    Ghost talks about pally mana regen


    Yes, that is exactly what I said. You are saying youíll just use the shaman gear. Why? Because you donít care about the mana regen. Why? Because your mana regen is so good based on things like Illumination that mana regen stats are not attractive. That doesnít mean we stop putting regen stats on plate. That means we nerf Illumination. An even better solution would be to get rid of MP5 and make Illumination return mana based on your spirit. Now not only do you want a regen stat, but you want the same stat that other healers want.
    That to me is all type of fail. Guess its time to regem my pally for spirit...

  2. #2
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    I really hope he's not being serious... >.>

  3. #3
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    Lack of context FTL, a link to the original thread would have been nice. I doubt he is serious, it sounds more like a sarcastic response to a dumb suggestion/comment someone else made.

  4. #4
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    Or he could be entirely serious, because here's another quote:

    (Inhale.) We put MP5 on caster mail because Resto shamans use it. We don't put it on the Elemental tier set because Resto shamans won't use that. Many mana-users can get regen out of Int and crit, but those also improve other aspects of casting. If it benefits you too much to stack those and ignore MP5 or Spirit, you are going to end up being too effective a healer compared to other classes. The design of the Holy paladin is not that you get all your regen from crit and Int. A typical raiding Holy paladin probably gets double from Illumination what she gets from DP or Replenishment. It aint trivial. If a paladin stacks say nothing but crit, then not only is Illumination better, but you heal for more too. We run the risk that as your crit rises, you outstrip the shamans, priests and druids who are having to use MP5 and Spirit too. That's why you can't just say "We do use regen stats, but crit is our regen stat." If none of the healers care about regen stats at all, then mana regen is probably still too good.
    I think the basic idea is that other healers are typically using more than one stat in order to rely on regen, but a lot of holy paladins are typically relying on having insane amounts of crit in order to regen mana. In that regard, it's disappointing that they'd even consider an Illumination nerf, since that's something Blizz has shied away from in the past, but at the same time, I can see why, compared to other healers.

  5. #5
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    The less-than-serious part was not about nerfing illumination, which is possible. It's the part about making illumintaion scale from spirit, which is ridiculous in countless ways.

  6. #6
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    The question he was answering is as follows

    Q u o t e:

    MP5, with current allocation percentages, is worthless for holy paladins.
    The above text was his response to that quoted message.

    MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Discuss Itemization without insulting devs

  7. #7
    He doesn't mean the part about spirit, currently no healing plate has spirit on it, so they'd not only have to do a talent sheet overhaul, they'd have to do the same for all gear.

    And as for an Illumination nerf- I see it as the same as the old 100% to 60% drop- didn't hurt. By nerfing Illumination, I'm sure he means they will tone it down. And he hasn't even said how they will go about it or the degree- dropping it by 5% or 50% are both called "nerfs", but obviously one has a larger impact.

    The devs have said that they're not happy with how high healer regen is in general, even after the nerfs in the last patch.

  8. #8
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    Thing is that Blizzard said they'd look at other sources to nerf mana regen, starting with replenishment, before they'd consider nerfing something like Illumination.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by qygibo View Post
    Thing is that Blizzard said they'd look at other sources to nerf mana regen, starting with replenishment, before they'd consider nerfing something like Illumination.
    I wouldn't assume that Illumination is going to be nerfed.

    If (and that's a big if) they were to base Illumination on spirit or mp5, that would almost certainly be a next expansion thing, and would be about recalibrating Illumination around different stats, not nerfing it.

    The primary reason for such a change, to be clear, would not be to weaken Illumination, but to enable Blizzard to create healer gear that is of interest to all healing classes, not just half of them.

  10. #10
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    Blizzard created this problem for paladins and it is not going to go away unless they do a TON of changes.

    Blizzard decided to make flash useless 95% of the time while raiding leaving with exactly 1 spell to cast. Holy light costs a TON of mana and do to the nature of tank healing in this game you cant wait till they take damage and then heal. You have to cast constantly so that if they do take damage they get healed before taking a second hit which will normally kill them.

    So we are left with 1 spell that we have to be casting at all times and we had to manage to squeeze enough regen out of our gear to sustain this. And mp5 is just way to weak to keep up with our mana expenditure.

    If they are going to nerf illumination or other regen to make us care about mp5 then are also going to have to either reduce mana cost on holy light, add a talent to paladins that increases mp5 effect on us by 50% to bring it inline with our costs, or give us a new baseline heal to our toolbox that we can use to make up the difference.

    Personally I hope they nerf our regen while giving us a new heal that fills a middle ground between flash and HL or is some kind of aoe.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roana View Post
    I wouldn't assume that Illumination is going to be nerfed.
    When looking at pally regen, that's the big major thing they'd look at if they were to want us to care about mp5 gear again. Most paladins get the majority of their regen from Illumination, thus there's the want to stack int and crit. A lot of guides that I see for BiS for holy pally gear still mention T7 items as somewhat equal or better than some of the T8 items that drop, precisely because of their stats.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by qygibo View Post
    When looking at pally regen, that's the big major thing they'd look at if they were to want us to care about mp5 gear again. Most paladins get the majority of their regen from Illumination, thus there's the want to stack int and crit. A lot of guides that I see for BiS for holy pally gear still mention T7 items as somewhat equal or better than some of the T8 items that drop, precisely because of their stats.
    Agreed. However, them changing illumination does not mean that it is going to be nerfed. The net effect with tier-appropriate gear might still be effectively nil. Even if it were nerfed, this might go along with buffs to other holy talents that essentially cancel out the nerf.

    My bigger point is that this doesn't appear to be aimed at making paladin healing weaker, but at making more stats interesting for them, and as a result, provides a better itemization model (especially for accessories and weapons, which paladins need to share with other classes).

  13. #13
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    Couple of new posts from him

    I don't think it's the case that paladins don't care about regen. I think it's the case that they don't care about what we would call regen stats, namely MP5 and Spirit. Currently they probably over-value Int and crit. That is a potential problem because it means other healers have to spend part of their stat allocation on those stats while paladins can just stack crit (which also makes their heals bigger) and Int (which also improves their mana pool, as well as their crit).

    We haven't made any changes to Illumination or Replenishment at this point in time. We need to see some of the less bleeding-edge expert guilds try hard modes, where by most accounts mana regen starts to matter very much.


    By regen stats I mean MP5 and Spirit. Yes, you can get regen through other stats, but bear with me for a minute. Our basic design is that dps casters generally don't run the risk of running out of mana, assuming they play reasonably well and aren't in over the head. (i.e. this doesn't mean you can point out cases where you ran OOM and claim the system is broken). But we do want healers to face the risk of running OOM. Healer mana and tanks being gibbed are the two main tools we have for ending encounters (and often even PvP). We need for healers to care about MP5 and Spirit as regen stats, but for casters to largely be able not to. We do this in part by converting Spirit into dps stats, but as I said, I'm not sure that's ultimately a successful solution.



    (Inhale.) We put MP5 on caster mail because Resto shamans use it. We don't put it on the Elemental tier set because Resto shamans won't use that. Many mana-users can get regen out of Int and crit, but those also improve other aspects of casting. If it benefits you too much to stack those and ignore MP5 or Spirit, you are going to end up being too effective a healer compared to other classes. The design of the Holy paladin is not that you get all your regen from crit and Int. A typical raiding Holy paladin probably gets double from Illumination what she gets from DP or Replenishment. It aint trivial. If a paladin stacks say nothing but crit, then not only is Illumination better, but you heal for more too. We run the risk that as your crit rises, you outstrip the shamans, priests and druids who are having to use MP5 and Spirit too. That's why you can't just say "We do use regen stats, but crit is our regen stat." If none of the healers care about regen stats at all, then mana regen is probably still too good.

    Long-term we could totally see merging MP5 and Spirit into one stat (with all of the class changes that would entail) but we're not ready to pull the trigger on anything like that yet.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roana View Post
    Agreed. However, them changing illumination does not mean that it is going to be nerfed. The net effect with tier-appropriate gear might still be effectively nil. Even if it were nerfed, this might go along with buffs to other holy talents that essentially cancel out the nerf.

    My bigger point is that this doesn't appear to be aimed at making paladin healing weaker, but at making more stats interesting for them, and as a result, provides a better itemization model (especially for accessories and weapons, which paladins need to share with other classes).
    It depends on when it's changed. If they want to incorporate mp5 or spirit, that's something then that we'd be looking forward to much later, since that'd change a lot of pally mechanics fundamentally. However, if they were wanting to do a quick fix to make us more in line with other healers (which would be warranted... oftentimes I'm over 50% mana while the other non pally healers are struggling), it'd most likely be considered a nerf in some way.

  15. #15
    Can someone please provide links to where they are getting GC's comments? I'd like to have some more context about what GC is talking about, not just stand alone snip-its. Thanks bunches

  16. #16
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    Main thread is here: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> GC, I'm sorry but you're severely misinformed


    The main points are follows:

    1) GC believes paladins need their regen sources to be nerfed to the point that mp5 is needed

    2) GC does not believe that crit and int are regen stats...only mp5 and spirit are allowed that lofty title.

    3) GC realizes that paladin toolbox is tiny but they wont be buffing FoL in any meaningful way.


    Basically if you take all his points at face value I am done with my paladin. They want to nerf single target healing into lines with resto shamans/druid/holy priests and give us none of their aoe.

    My priest is level 8 now...guess I should get to work.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amallthia View Post
    Can someone please provide links to where they are getting GC's comments? I'd like to have some more context about what GC is talking about, not just stand alone snip-its. Thanks bunches
    Heres a bit of advice, if you want to read official blue posts, go read the official wow forums or check out any one of the blue post trackers out there.

    Were not posting snippets... were posting word for word everything he said about a subject. And if you look above you will see where the original post was linked as well

  18. #18
    I misled by the title of this thread and the quote from GC contained in the first post. I was going through the offical forums but could not find any blues posting on the topic of pally mana regen. It was my fault that I missed the post containing the link, but I thank you for taking those extra seconds to repost the link I just wanted some context to the snippets/quotes.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meeks View Post
    Personally I hope they nerf our regen while giving us a new heal that fills a middle ground between flash and HL or is some kind of aoe.
    Such as maybe giving pallys a glyph to make consecration an aoe heal?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGav View Post
    Such as maybe giving pallys a glyph to make consecration an aoe heal?
    I would be for it. Maybe like a DK's D&D except it would work like a HoT on the ground

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