A pally that cant hold threat

[cudmaster]

Anytime you're not tanking something and the raid is taking heavy damage? For example, Stormcaller when he goes in the air, or phase two mimiron right after a laser barrage when all the ranged/healers are getting repositioned. The damage from these is far worse on 25 than on 10.

So you are saying I should waste 3 points so I can reduce the totally avoidable damage other raid members should be totally avoiding, and that they couldn't possibly die from anyway.

The main reason I say it is worthless now is that it USED to last x seconds and take x% damage off others and put it on you. Now it only does that up to your max HP.

Before the nerf you could use DG (and/or HoSacrifice) as an external CD to save a tank from the plasma blast on mimiron... now it goes away after 2-3 ticks.

IMHO these abilities are pretty much only viable now in PVP.

Yes you should, because I really don't believe that you are sustaining that much threat (without TotT or MDs) in any kind of progression tanking gear.

Yeah, 10k on patchy easy with no ToTs or MDs, bursting much higher when using cooldowns. (I assume Omen is not wrong when making these sorts of statements)

I'll try and get WebStats next week, the guy that runs then doesn't usually log our ALT raids.

[cudmaster]

Laeris produced 8574 tps vs Patchwerk

Not my best, I'm sure. but 8500ish is pretty good. Omen was showing something around 10k (though of course it would dip from time to time) most of the fight, I'll try running the sustainedtps mod next week as well.

[Stephanius]

The OP's problem sounds like trash pulls, but some of the replies are talking about optimizing single target dps.

When picking up a pack of trash, change the sequence of your moves to give those that hit multiple targets priority. Consecrate first, Frisbee and as soon as the 3-4 of the mobs are close enough it's HAMMER TIME (toss in a single target move if any of them get to you early)! Yes, the SotR is better single target threat, but that won't help you if the raid starts AoE before you said hello to each mob explicitly.

Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous pushing the move from three to four targets helps here.

[Skyrnir]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone, and sorry I abandoned this thread after I got what I needed. Well anyways a while back I moved to the 53/18 spec and fixed my rotation and things have been going much smoother, now all I need is time to become a better tank. I fixed my rotation and start pulls with:
Divine plea(Before pull, if not up and off cd) Avenger Shield, Concecrate, Hammer of righteous.

Also Stephanius is correct my problem wasn't really single target, i had problems with trash.

@Kelstet, hit cap is something i need to bring up, on a recent naxx run, we wiped on 4 horsemen because the rng decided hate on me and have my taunts miss, that was totally unacceptable and something I'm working on improving. I think I'm going to ditch glyph of righteous defense for glyph of hammer of righteous

@Hautian, at the time i didn't have mana issues but am starting too now that i dropped SA to 1/2. But this is easily avoided by pulling more mobs, and making sure i keep divine plea up at all times.

Only have a couple of issues still that I'm working on, picking mobs back up someone pulls aggro and casters ( i try to los them but its hard to do when melee decides to charge and stun them in place).

Thanks for everyones suggestions.
--Skyrn

[Akeber]

The main reason I say it is worthless now is that it USED to last x seconds and take x% damage off others and put it on you. Now it only does that up to your max HP.

It's 110% of your health when talented. 45K+ of damage removed from the raid at a key moment is hardly a waste.

Yeah, 10k on patchy easy with no ToTs or MDs, bursting much higher when using cooldowns. (I assume Omen is not wrong when making these sorts of statements)

Omen is a terrible measuring tool for overall threat, you tend to only notice the highs and forget about the lows. Patchwerk is hardly any kind of challenge, you could get away with alot of DPS/threat oriented gear, as many have. Looking at one of my wowmeter parses for patch you'd have to be pulling around 3750 dps on patch to get up to 10K TPS average. Here is a parse for patch where I managed 3500 dps as prot, and averaged 9K tps for the duration:
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish


I'm not sure what you're arguing for, on one hand you say that you're making more threat than you need, then you argue against dropping threat talents (reckoning) for mitigation/raid utility talents (divine guardian). If you're threat is always miles ahead of the DPS, what's the point of a threat heavy build? Drop some of the threat talents and pick up some more survival/utility talents.

[cudmaster]

I'm not sure what you're arguing for, on one hand you say that you're making more threat than you need, then you argue against dropping threat talents (reckoning) for mitigation/raid utility talents (divine guardian). If you're threat is always miles ahead of the DPS, what's the point of a threat heavy build? Drop some of the threat talents and pick up some more survival/utility talents.

Look at it this way, if you are MT and you are getting hit by a boss for 20k per swing, you REALLY don't want to add all that raid damage onto yourself as well.

If you are OT, the MT is still getting hit for 20k per swing, so your cute little feel good 40-50k damage sponging is going to last for only as long as it takes for the MT to get hit once or twice (depending on how much raid damage there really is). Meaning that basically you are jerking your healers around, forcing them to heal the crap out of you for 2 seconds for no reason when they could have healed everyone else just fine, and in actuality will still need to.

Granted you could also bubble at the same time, but then you lose agro on any adds you were tanking (which might not be a big deal on some fights) and have created a situation where you lull your healers into thinking that big raid warning that just went up telling them to heal like madmen was BS, only to splash cold reality on their face 2 seconds later when the raid they should have been chain healing (or equiv) falls over dead.

If Divine Sacrifice worked like it used to (absorbing for x-seconds instead of x-hp) it would be great, but as it stands now I see using it in PvE as creating more problems than solutions.

Sure there may not be a need for more threat on patchwork, but there are lots of fights where you need all the threat you can get, and fast! (tanking adds on freya, phase 3 mimiron, sara's guardians, etc etc)

Not to mention the fact that reckoning procs means more mana return for JoW and more HP return from JoL... My opinion is putting those 3 points anywhere else is a complete waste. (where as reckoning is only mostly a waste)

Happy that the OP got his answers, if people want to debate talent choices with me, feel free to shoot me a pm.

[kyle46]

I would like to mention that if you bubble while using divine guardian the effect keeps going because you're not acctually taking any damage. So basically it's 30% less damage for 10 seconds for the raid. Esspecially on fights like freya when the exploding adds go down too close together that can mean the difference between your raid wiping or moving on to the next boss. This may be a bug with the game mechanics but unless it's fixed it's pretty much manditory for any prot or ret paladin to have if you are a serious raider.

[Akeber]

DS+Bubble. Hitting DS without a bubble will most likely be "divine suicide" if you're timing it to be effective.

Detonating lashers have no Aggro. Mim phase two, no aggro. Non-FR tank during frozen blows, no aggro. Stormcaller is the last add up and goes in the air, no aggro.

There are lots of places where DS is useful. Mitigating the MT's damage isn't one of them, that's what hand of sacrifice is for.

Also, even though the bubble negating the damage, DS is still capped by the limitation, which varies depending on how many points you have in.

[cudmaster]

Detonating lashers have no Aggro. Mim phase two, no aggro. Non-FR tank during frozen blows, no aggro. Stormcaller is the last add up and goes in the air, no aggro.

on freya and hodir, the mt is still getting hit, and your DG is going to be eaten up by that damage.

on mim phase 2, really 50k damage the healers don't have to heal... i'd be shocked if the healers even noticed you did it, and if you called it out "hey i'm bubbling and DGing" or whatever and they stopped healing because of it, gratz on wiping the raid.

the damage from stormcaller is pretty much 100% avoidable, and it is easy to heal a few slow people through anyway, you aren't saving anyone using it here, and who kills stormcaller last anyway?