With CiderHelm's recent thread about the Unrelenting Assault 3.1 alternative build as suscitate a lot of interest among a lot of us. More recently i have been studying about this main idea for a PVP spec. I have posted a thread "Guide for new warrior specs with 3.1". This thread was ended by Lore. It was starting to contain abusing language and was rated 18+. Since i got alot of posts about people asking me to go on with the thread. So, i tought i could make another thread more focused on PVP and with a compilation of the idea and new stuff to prove why this spec could be good with 3.1 patch.
Some people think it is the stars, some others think that it is foolishness. But it is either of the two. We must believe in Blizzard and enter into our minds that this new patch had to bring something new into the warrior world. If not, well then just curse blizzard. So, what was the idea behind those creators head when they arise with the 3.1 patch modifications? So here it goes. I will clear myself up about the idea. I would appreciate constructive replys.
1. Before beginning:
This Thread is not about Raids. This spec idea is theorycraft and only time will tell us who is right and who is wrong. On the other hand, the idea is carried by evidences people cannot deny:
First evidence:
The main spec idea is improved a lot by the latest patch. (Improved Unrelenting, Juggernaut, Improved Last Stand and more...). Read my last Thread for more info.
Second evidence:
This spec perfectly fits with the new armor kit because of the 2 piece bonus. Incite in Protection tree boosts up your Crit% with Heroic Strike wich enables the bonus more often. Check next section for the pieces.
2. The SPEC (Unrelenting Assault for PVP) and his variations:
1. With Blade Storm: Battlegrounds, 4v4 or 5v5 Arena
51/5/15: The World of Warcraft Armory
Fairly good for solo quest, off-tank and DPS. Playable as a 4v4 or 5v5 arena.
53/3/13: Getting better for PVP versus ranged, magic, kiting with a bit less critical and more Improved Hamstring. On the other hand you are cutting down your survivability versus melee and lowering the time you will be spamming revenge in long battles.
You might want to trade some points around to compensate depending on issues (Rage generation as one).
2. With Piercing Howl: Arena 2v2 or 3v3
45/11/15: The World of Warcraft Armory
This could be a reliable spec for arena 2v2 or 3v3. It sticks with the old idea of going for Piercing Howl with an option for Demoralizing shout wich will sometimes help versus rogues and high DPS foes. Almost full bleeding effect and improved survivability.
46/11/14: Same as above with less survivability but better Bleeding or Rage generation to deal with issues.
2. The Armory:
Here is the 2 pieces of the kit that fits perfectly with the idea:
Conqueror's Siegebreaker Battlegear (2 pieces)
Conqueror's Siegebreaker Helmet
Conqueror's Siegebreaker Battleplate
Bonus: 2 pieces: Heroic Strike and Slam critical strikes have a chance to grant you 150% haste rating for 5 sec.
Heroic Strike has a chance to grant you a 150% haste rating for 5 sec. Can you imagine what this means for a spec relying on Glyph of revenge? You spam heroic strike 5 times for free in a 10sec Shield Block. With Incite talent you can boost up Heroic Strike Critical % to over 35%. This means that the 150% haste rating will often go on.
Question: What is the % of activation for the 2 piece bonus?
By going Protection tree, you can take Incite if you plan on wearing this gear and see it as a benefit. Since you are not far from Improved Revenge and Last Stand, why not take them both also.
Another pieces which would be a must:
Deadly Gladiator's Battlegear (2 pieces)
Deadly Gladiator's Plate Gauntlets (hamstring cost -3rage)
Deadly Gladiator's Plate Shoulders
Bonus: +50 Resilience Rating
I would greatly appreciate constructive comments since im an irritable person. If you think its crap at least make it constructive. Or if i am not clear enough ask for pecisions. Dont try to prove me that 60/11/0 and 57/14/0 are the way to go. This is something i already know. Since we are evolving in a dynamic world i would expect from this new patch some kind of new gameplay emerging.
unno.. there is hardly any haste stats in pvp sets that the 150% haste proc seems underwhelming. I tried timing it with the engineering glove tinker for an extra 350 haste but haste proc seems to go by so quickly that I didn't really notice a difference.
Nice thread, Arms/hybrid builds can work quite well in arena. There was a discussion about it on Arena Junkies and a high rated warrior had a lot of success with a 48/0/23 build. He played this spec up to about 2500-2600 though he's recently gone back to the old 60/11 and 57/14. Going deeper into prot than your build allows you to grab some extra utility.. an extra stun from conc blow and a silence from gag order.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warr...0&version=9868
this is what he said on the spec:
You definitely do less damage, but you can time your burst far more often... since conc blow crits for 4-5k, you can do a dps burst every 30 seconds instead of every 90 seconds (with bladestorm)..
Overall, your damage is 5-10% less, but you are able to control the flow of the game much more... a mage sheeping you across the map? heroic throw silence him.... need to peel for your healer? conc blow the guy and get some mana back...
Losing piercing howl is definitely the worst part about it, but with my druid partner i can call for a roots whenever I really need it...
Spell reflecting for your partner is amazing vs 2 dps, and lol's warlocks pretty hard.... (try it out on mana burn vs priest too!)
Overall the spec is probably harder to play becuase you have less "get out of jail free" cards like bladestorm and piercing howl... but you have access to probably better abilities in aoe spell reflect, conc blow, gag order, and last stand.
Try it out, but dont expect to be amazing with it immediately.. practice in some bgs for a while.
I really don't understand where you're going with this. Is this a PvE or a PvP build? The title implies that it is a PvP build, but you skip key PvP talents like Iron Will, Imp. Hamstring and Imp. MS, and I can't see any reason why you would take 3/3 Two-Handed Weapon Specialization as well as both 3/5 Shield Specialization and 2/2 Shield Mastery.
Based on your comment that the builds you linked would be "fairly good for solo quest, off-tank and DPS. Playable as a 4v4 or 5v5 arena.", I'm thinking your intent is for this to be a hybrid, one-size-fits-all spec for both PvE and PvP. If that's the approach you want to take, go right ahead. Just know that it will be horribly ineffective. The point Ciderhelm was trying to make in the UA video was that using different specs in different situations is much more effective than trying to make one spec fit all encounters.
PvP specs that go deep into Arms and dip into Prot can be viable, but they need to be designed with a playstyle in mind. Why take Imp. Revenge (which can only be used in Defensive stance) and Imp. Overpower, Imp. Hamstring and Juggernaut (which can only be used in Battle/Berserker stance) in the same build?
Regarding your analysis of the Conquerer's two-piece bonus and Incite--using the 35% chance to crit a Heroic Strike you provided and the 40% proc rate on the two-piece bonus, you wind up with a 14% chance to proc a ~5% increase in attack speed for 5 seconds. Being generous and assuming a relatively slow PvP weapon like Furious Gladiator's Decapitator, the result of the math is that your next attack will come .18 seconds sooner, and the attack after that .08 seconds sooner.
Is that .26 seconds beneficial? Sure, every little bit helps. Is it worth sinking 8+ points into the Protection tree, dropping 2 pieces of PvP gear for PvE gear, and spending 15 rage (since you didn't take Imp. Heroic Strike) on an ability you wouldn't otherwise use for a 14% chance to get that .26 seconds? No way.
There are arms/prot builds that work, but this is not one of them.
Last edited by Ossix; 05-19-2009 at 07:54 AM. Reason: Clarifying the math.
"The best way out is always through." —Robert Frost
I was wondering wich build you where talking about here to start with. Because, as you can see there where 4 builds right there. My first thread might not have been clear enough on this and might have confused some people.
What about the playstyle i got in mind? Don't tell me you don't change stances while playing. Have you ever tried to fight a retry or holy paladin in a duel with a full Arms spec in battle or berserker stance only? I doubt that without going into prot you will ever be able to break trough such an opponent (Revenge>Overpower versus melee with exception of Rogue in most case). Having some points in protection is the main goal here. Having chances versus opponents you had none with the classic deep Arms/fury spec. Now, if i have improved overpower, it is because i will need it when fighting non-melee opponents. And if i need bleed is that i will need it to kite frost mages.
From my part, i do not think that Iron Will and Improved MS are key talents. Iron Will can help a bit but Second Wind compensate for this doesn't it? Mortal Strike is mainly used for his 50% healing penalty, it's not mainly about making damage. About Improved Hamstring, as we are all aware of, is a key talent for PVP. This is why i have stayed a door opened up for something else than 51/5/15 like 53/3/15 or maybe 55/3/13 or whatever so this can be Improved. Also, if you take a closer look at the 45/11/15 spec, you can see that Improved Hamstring is actually there.
Some people call it a hybrid spec cause they stop brainstorming after sawing the 51/5/15. I would call it a basical spec idea (good for solo leveling purpose with good off-tank possibility) with variations that might lead us to clean and clear efficient PVP specs. Since i was not clear enough in my last thread it might have mistaken few. I mentionned this was TheoryCraft, i have not fully tested all of this since i did not bought my last playing card. I still enjoy you giving me replys to my post so i can figure it out in the end.
About the 2 piece bonus and incite i think it can actually be a good thing. Don't you spend 5 points in sword specialization? For what? A 5% chance to occur? Now i might have missed one of your calculations. You say this 2 piece bonus proceeds 40% of the time. If i read well about the 2 piece bonus, it grants 150% haste rating for 5 sec. Where does this 5% you are talking about comes from? Isn't it 50%?
I will have to correct you about the 15 rage cost. It only costs 5 rage since i have Glyph of Revenge when in defensive stance and this is where it is interesting. On the other hand, it is true that it costs 15 rage when in Battle or Berserker Stance if you do not have a Glyph of Heroic Strike. So, this bonus is not quite a big deal when fighting in Battle or Berserker Stance, but it is good when spamming Revenge and Heroic Strike in Defensive Stance since the low cost with Glyph of Revenge. Within a 10 sec block you spam Heroic Strike 5 times for free. Now if i got 35% of Crit chance, this means at least 1-2 attacks will be Criticals. If you say that the 2 piece set proceeds 40% of the time, this means i will have 1 more swing for every of those 10 sec using Shield Block and this swing will also be Heroic Strike since it will be free. And if we take into account that this was an Heroic Strike, this means it as a chance to make it proceed even more often.
Now, is ArPen not a viable stat for PVP? If it is not, replace it for 2 other pieces wich dont focus on ArPen. There is not quite a big difference in replacing a 2 piece of PVP gear for a 2 piece PVE gear if all the stats are alike. In the end, it is the bonuses that count. Try convincing me those 4 piece bonuses for PVP gear are really good and that the items really differ in a way it leaves us weaker with 2 pieces of a PVE kit.
I'm not saying don't change stances while playing. I'm saying that it's better to put talent points into talents that are always or usually effective, rather than talents that are situationally effective.Originally Posted by Moontracker
For example, in the build with points in both Fury and Protection you have 2/2 Imp. Revenge and 2/2 Shield Mastery, but only 1/5 Poleaxe Spec. If you shifted those points to Poleaxe Spec:
You'll gain:
+4% crit chance in all stances (and therefore +4% chance to apply Deep Wounds).
+4% crit damage in all stances.
You'll lose:
+20% damage on an ability used in a secondary stance that can only be used when you have just avoided a melee attack.
A 50% stun chance on an ability used in a secondary stance that can only be used when you have just avoided a melee attack.
A 30% increase to a stat that only has any effect when you equip a shield to defend against being focused.
20 seconds off a cooldown used to provide minor mitigation while being focused or to increase the DPS of a move used while being focused.
The constant benefit of Poleaxe spec outweighs the highly situational minor benefits of Shield Mastery and Imp. Revenge. And I'm being nice in comparing it to Poleaxe Spec. Take those four points and drop 1 in Endless Rage and 3 into Wrecking Crew. You've increased your only reliable source of rage generation in PvP by 25% and all damage you cause by 6%. This is much, much better than the situational abilities of Imp. Revenge and Shield Mastery.
That's not to say that situational abilities aren't very good things to have--Last Stand is very valuable, worth much more than one talent point. It's just that the other abilities you gain by putting points into early Protection aren't nearly as useful. It's not about what abilities are good or what abilities are bad. Its about opportunity cost--what you have to give up to put points in Protection. Losing Blood Craze/Piercing Howl in Fury to get Last Stand and other Protection talents would be a reasonable tradeoff. But you can't get that deep into Protection without dropping everything but Cruelty in Fury and some important talents in Deep Arms. The tradeoff just isn't worth it at this point.
The same concept of opportunity cost applies to glyphs. If you take Glyph of Revenge and Glyph of Heroic Strike, that means you have to give up two other glyphs--say, Glyph of Mortal Strike and Glyph of Execution. You've be giving up two all-purpose, any-stance damage increasing glyphs for two situational glyphs that won't help you DPS down your team's focus target.
If you can make this work in Arena and get to a high rating, more power to you. Until I see it in action, I highly doubt that gearing, talenting, glyphing and changing your playstyle so that situational defensive stance abilities will have a 14% chance to proc a quarter of a second of haste will perform at a comparable level to gearing, talenting and glyphing for damage.
Click the Wowhead link to the two-piece bonus you have in the OP, and read the comments and click through to the actual buff you get. The 150% in the tooltip of the set pieces is incorrect, it's actually +150 haste rating you get. 150 haste rating is about a 5% increase in weapon speed.
This is actually better than a 150% increase in your haste, because haste is widely considered a crappy stat for Warriors. You won't find it on any of our good PvP gear. You'd have to have over 100 haste rating for a 150% increase to be better than +150 rating, and most folks in PvP gear won't we wasting itemization on haste.
Last edited by Ossix; 05-19-2009 at 11:29 AM. Reason: Answering the math question.
"The best way out is always through." —Robert Frost
Here's my general thoughts on your builds.
51/5/15: I really don't think you need 2 points in Imp Charge, you really get enough rage for the most part as is, I rarely have rage issues. Instead, get one point into Endless Rage. Definitely go 5/5 weapon spec. I personally like Strength of Arms over Cruelty since it's less mitigated by Resilience. Even though you're trying to get the Crit off, how often are you Heroic Striking too? Between MS, Rend, OP, Hamstring and SD procs how much do you find yourself casting Heroic Strike? I use it as much as I can but I don't feel it's something you can just spam. I agree with the other poster regarding Shield talents, why? I think the Imp T.Clap would be better, especially in a 3's and definitely in 5's. Plus, you should be able to get points into Toughness which also improves your survivability and reduces slowing effects.
This is kind of what I would go for: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
46/11/14: I don't see any potential with this spec at all. You were able to leave out most of the Fury talents from the last build and I think you need to do the same for this. Living without PH is tough but if you're going to try a Hybrid build you might as well go all the way.Again, I don't get why you put almost nothing into a weapon spec, that should be completed. Personally, I'm not a big fan of Imp Hamstring, it's just too RNG for a spec that is almost all RNG, but that's just a personal preference. Shield Talent, not sure why, hopefully you're not sitting in defensive stance too long, if you are you will lose to an aggressive comp.
This would be my build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft if I were going to try something like this.
1. Maxes out a weapons spec
2. One point in Endless Rage and one point out of Sudden Death isn't bad at all.
3. Iron Will, nothing more needs to be said.
4. Imp Spell Reflect
5. 5/5 points in Toughness
6. Gag Order: Shield Bash, Heroic Throw will really mess with Casters; will be game breaking if coordinated correctly.
7. Concussion Blow: Another attack that gives good control. Charge > Rend > MS > Concussion Blow can probably be game breaking if timed right. In 3's moreso than 2's, because if you're paired with a DK for example, you get your target low and you switch to the healer while your dps partner stays on the target you can lock the healer down with Intercept/Charge > Rend > Concussion Blow > Shield Bash heal > Heroic Throw heal. I threw the Rend in there because if the target isn't dead yet you will most likey have an OP available to smack the healer with when he goes to throw a heal after all that lockdown.
Either way, I don't think either build will be great for 2's, you'll be hardpressed to outdamage a healer solo. On-the-other hand, this build could be really good if you can get a very good and aggressive dps partner in a 3's or 5's.
Gear, you're automatically using two pieces of PvE gear and you're losing out on about 100 resilience. What is the other gear you plan on using? With Warriors already vulnerable to being focused hard, you can't afford to lose too much resilience. I think you still need to get yourself to 500 to 600 resilience and err on the high-side. I'd love to see the proc rate on that gear but I still think that these builds bring control to the table and not any added damage or burst potential. One piece of gear that I can see being really good for this build especially, is Darkmoon Card: Death. With you charging around the arena and you go to lock somebody down, the added burst from the card proc could be game breaking.
Last edited by Jaynick77; 05-20-2009 at 07:06 PM. Reason: A.D.D - saved an incomplete thought :(
been playing with wowhead trying to come up with various pvp ua specs since i just switched from UA to arms and realized i don't have the gear to make it really work... here's a few ideas...
ua with 2h in defensive stance with bladestorm
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
cons: no conc. blow, no gag order, relies on crits for enrage, low toughness/attt, attt loses a lot without a shield also.
- 5/5 anticipation - to make up for not having a shield... should probably gem for dodge/agi too and basically more DK or feral style tank gear.
- 1/3 attt & 4/5 toughness - this ratio is up to you...
- you may also have a preference between Imp. MS, Imp. Hamstring, and Weapon Mastery, or you could do a combination of them... only really did Imp. MS for the extra 1% (and .001 sec?) you get for maxing it out.
pros: bladestorm, should be okay on rage
ua with 2h in defensive stance with wrecking crew and conc. blow
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
pros: concussion blow, should be fine on rage.
- 1/5 wrecking crew - you're basically only taking this to get the enrage proc. so you can use it for enraged regeneration. doesn't buff your dmg that much so it may not be worth it, but it lasts 12 sec. no matter how many points you put into it. 5 talent points for 10% damage proc is fine, don't get me wrong; it's just that spending only 1 talent point to enable 1/3 healing is kind of a bargain still.
- 3/3 AttT - you could go 3/5 cruelty if you wanted to proc wrecking crew more often, or spend it elsewhere in the arms tree.
- 3/3 Imp MS - this talent is give or take for me. 1 second and 10% damage on a fairly mediocre burst for three talent points seems extreme. i chose it because i also have glyph of MS and i'd want to either take both or take neither. plus it's just part of getting down the tree.
cons: makes it pretty spam dependent. again, attt suffers from not having a shield and you rely on crits for enrage.
2h with ua in defensive stance with conc. blow and piercing howl
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LA0uzfht0orRzMZhxboZbItbx0z:boszMo
pros: this is really just for people who like piercing howl a lot. plus there's more burst damage from cruelty + attt. (w/ toughness)
cons: no enrage. Unbridled Wrath < Endless Rage, lose bleed damage from blood frenzy.
basic 1h/shield ua spec w/ conc & gag
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
pros: you'll stay alive really hard. more CC with concussion blow, shield bash, and heroic throw, plus juggernaut if you're desperate.
- not the most interesting thing in the world.
- you might want glyph of rapid charge to help with kiting instead of glyph of MS. still gotta stance dance, though.
- you might prefer imp. charge to imp. rend, i doubt you'll be extremely dependent on either of these abilities though, so i went for the one that causes damage =/
cons: not great dps, rage issues if you don't get hit by something melee.
however, still haven't found a UA spec that isn't highly kiteable and susceptible to spellcasters. that's why i put juggernaut in all of them, but really if you can depend on your rage, you can skip juggernaut and use berserker intercept, put those points in rend or something. but basically you gotta stance dance to charge/intercept and deal with it. spell reflect and heroic throw w/ gag order help with casters, but hunters can still be a pain. i usually just kill their pet first to piss them off at least. plus they're melee so revenge isn't a problem... can't say the same about all combat pets but whatever.
there's really only two reasons to go UA over straight arms, since the damage of execute and some of those other abilities are all around the same revenge and more efficient... and that would be for the imp. revenge stun and the unlimited free heroic strikes... so while for PvE you're looking at it as a prot spec with high dps, for PvP you have to look at it as an arms spec with higher survivability and CC.
i haven't tried it with a 2H yet. i imagine the free HS is less useful if your 2h is slow. i'll get around to it someday. or when cataclysm comes out those 5 pts will probably make this much more viable. or less, depending on whatever somebody else comes up with.
Last edited by Lautoa; 09-06-2009 at 01:45 AM. Reason: more.
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