Hey all. Im new to posting here but ive been reading the forums for awhile. Ive been interested in the guild forum just to see what people ask for whilst recruiting.
I've come to notice a lot of guilds specify that they want exceptional players. Well what makes an exceptional player? Im a dk and i know my class inside and out for both tanking and dps. But i wanted to know what it takes to be an exceptional player.
Gear, if you have almost Best in Slot, then they will look at your experience, if you have enough, then you have to be a fast learner, 0% drama 100% focus on raiding, situational awarness is another important thing, and overall enjoy raiding the most.
[An00b'arak]: >8< spider power
Having great gear is a byproduct of winning. Exceptional players will typically have the best gear available at their level of play. It's not because they care about the gear but because they care about winning and are downing the bosses consistently. Get RAWR or an EJ spreadsheet for your class, work out what your BiS is based on the usual raid buffs. Go for upgrades but target the BiS for your class/role and pick those up whenever possible. That's all there is to gear.
I would suggest to learn a different raiding role than you currently fill. You may know your class inside and out, but until you know how your class interacts with other classes (symbiotically?) you're only getting part of the picture. Try a raid healer in a few PUGs, that game is completely different from dps/tanking (which are very similar).
As a DK it will be difficult to seperate yourself from the pack. If you are a DPS'er it will be even more challenging. You're going to need to outperform the raid equipped DPS guys without the gear advantages while not dying and completing all boss encounter specific objectives you've been assigned.
Knowing the fights is important. You don't want to be the guy who chimes in on every boss saying things like "Hey I saw a video can we do it such and such a way" because those guys are irritating as hell. That being said, you want to know every fight in the entire dungeon you will be running. Make sure you know if there is a specific role for your class (kiting zombie chow, ect) and are able to fulfill it. Don't be the one the raid leader has to work around because he thinks you are incapable of pulling it off.
Don't make mistakes. It makes you look incompetent when you have to say things like "oh sorry I didn't see that mob" or "damn I aggro ripped again" throughout the raid. Exceptional players roll with little or no gameplay errors and to be one you're going to need adopt that philosophy. The first time you do something wrong it is ignorance; when you do the same thing wrong again you are a terrible (average?) player.
Perfect rotations, no avoidable deaths, spreadsheeted gear/enchants, knowledge of the encounters, knowledge of the other classes and how they intersect your raid role, knowledge of specific fight events; all this stuff adds up to your answer. If you are doing those things you'll be considered an exceptional player (in wow PVE raiding).
The first thing I do when I look at a new recruit these days is their achievments. I know people have mentioned gear as being N1 in this thread, but really- gear is decided by RNG. There's people who get 3-5 pieces of their BIS from being dragged through one Naxx25 run while they're blowing people up and dumping poison clouds all over the place, while others farm since October and never see the item they really want drop.
Looking at the date when they got their raiding achievements, I can tell plenty about their skill. For example, someone who has had Nightfall since November is definitely a better player than someone who's only managed to get it in March (they'd have less guides to do it and probably worse gear for starters), unless it's an alt they leveled up late.
There'll be those who try to convince you that achievements is optional, but I have yet to meet a serious raider who doesn't make an effort to get all the raiding ones completed. If they haven't bothered to complete even the basic raiding ones, I take it as a sign of laziness- that they only care about getting a boss down the fastest way possible so that they can get to the loot asap.
Besides just raiding experience, they also tell you a lot about what the person is interested in. Someone who likes to complete everything will have at least 6k+ achievement points by now. Collectors will have the fawn stick, etc.. People who are interested in pvp will have the arena/battlemaster ones done or be close.
Then comes spec/talents. I'm aware that cookie cutter specs don't work for everyone, but if you don't have what is generally the mandatory talents for your spec, then it'll really make me wonder. And nothing annoys me more than going to armory someone only to find an offspec or pvp spec on there.
After that, I take a look at the person's gear. And contrary to what some guides tell you, gear DOES matter. You're not expected to have full BIS, but applying to a raiding guild in full blues really shows laziness, especially these days where it's fairly easy to gear up. If people don't even want to put in effort to do a few pugs or get some boes crafted, then it's an indication of how much effort they will put into raids with you. But then again, someone who has had decent raiding achievements will also have the gear.
The last thing I look at is arena team if the person has one. Yes pvp is not pve, but arena rating is an indication of general skill.
Big points for me:
Lying in the application: don't do it, telling people you've done all the raids pre-nerf when you don't have the title, or saying that you've raided in TBC when you don't even have Violet Eye rep will only make you look like an idiot. If you did those things on another char, link it.
Badmouthing previous guilds: Yes, you must dislike your current guild if you're leaving, but whining about all their faults in your app, or worse, making up stories, will only make me wonder about your character.
Being able to explain why you do certain things to get maximum output: I want to hear YOU explain why you're using a certain rotation, not hear you tell me you use it because some dude on Elitist Jerks says that it's the best.
Last edited by Cookie; 05-16-2009 at 06:42 AM.
The first thing I do when I look at a new recruit these days is their achievments. I know people have mentioned gear as being N1 in this thread, but really- gear is decided by RNG. There's people who get 3-5 pieces of their BIS from being dragged through one Naxx25 run while they're blowing up the raid and dumping poison clouds all over the place, while others farm since October and never see the item they really want drop.
Looking at the date when they got their raiding achievements, I can tell plenty about their skill. For example, someone who has had Nightfall since November is definitely a better player than someone who's only managed to get it in March (they'd have less guides to do it and probably worse gear for starters), unless it's an alt they leveled up late.
If you've got both 310% drakes while wearing 10-man or half heroic gear, I'm going to be very impressed. But if you're wearing greens but have nothing except Nightfall, I'm going to be asking you how much gold you paid for it.
There'll be those who try to convince you that achievements is optional, but I have yet to meet a serious raider who doesn't make an effort to get all the raiding ones completed. If they haven't bothered to complete even the basic raiding ones, I take it as a sign of laziness- that they only care about getting a boss down the fastest way possible so that they can get to the loot asap.
Besides just raiding experience, they also tell you a lot about what the person is interested in. Someone who likes to complete everything will have at least 6k+ achievement points by now. Collectors will have the fawn stick, etc.. People who are interested in pvp will have the arena/battlemaster ones done or be close.
After that, I take a look at the person's gear. And contrary to what some guides tell you, gear DOES matter. You're not expected to have full BIS, but applying to a raiding guild in full blues really shows laziness, especially these days where it's fairly easy to gear up. If people don't even want to put in effort to do a few pugs or get some boes crafted, then it's an indication of how much effort they will put into raids with you. I also take green quality gems in sockets and cheap enchants as a sign of lack of interest/effort, especially when the best available enchant for that slot doesn't even cost abyss crystals.
The last thing I look at is arena team if the person has one. Yes pvp is not pve, but arena rating is an indiation of general skill.
Big points for me:
Lying in the application: don't do it, telling people you've done all the raids pre-nerf when you don't have the title, or saying that you've raided in TBC when you don't even have Violet Eye rep will only make you look like an idiot. If you did those things on another char, link it.
Badmouthing previous guilds: Yes, you must dislike your current guild if you're leaving, but whining about all their faults in your app, or worse, making up stories, will only make me wonder about your character.
Being able to explain why you do certain things to get maximum output: I want to hear YOU explain why you're using a certain rotation, not hear you tell me you use it because some dude on Elitist Jerks says that it's the best.
In raids, someone I consider exceptional is someone who is aware of everything that's going on and reacts accordingly. For example, if you're on a progression run and experience a boss mind control for the first time. The paladin who instantly stuns the MC'd person is a far better player than the one who is still standing next to the MC'd person obliviously spamming heals even if his assigned targets don't die. For a dps: Bad players die to fires. Average players move out of fires and do the minimum dps expected of someone at their gear level. Real pros move out of fires, keep up any debuffs on the boss they're supposed to up, interrupt where necessary, reacts accordingly if something goes wrong, while being miles ahead of person number 2 on the damage meters.
Last edited by Cookie; 05-16-2009 at 07:08 AM.
I recruit for my guild and our recruitment process is very thoro. My definition of an "exceptional player" is:
1. Keeps up to date with the theorycraft behind his class
2. Has top raiding professions (JC, BS, etc)
3. Does not die to flame strikes, void zones, and other easily avoidable enviromental hazards.
4. Can play more then one of his/her specs just as well/almost as well as his main spec.
5. Does whatever he can to increase his toons performance, no matter how small or trivial. 500g for a storm jewel that will raise her/her strength from 16 to 20 in a BiS item that won't be replaced for a bit ? If their answer is "Are you nuts?? I'm not spending that kind of gold for one stupid gem", then their is a red flag.
Last edited by Kataztrophe; 05-17-2009 at 05:03 AM.
My Armory ---> http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&n=Mackmustard
i've also seen it mentioned that having more than 1 alt not at 80 makes you not "exceptional" .. having 2 or 3 fully decked out 80's makes you exceptional.
My take is I have too much RL to be exceptional.
This one I don't get. Some of the best players I know have only 1 character, and when asked why they don't level an alt: they totally want to focus on that character and do the best they can.Originally Posted by Warwench
I agree, and when I see an app from a person with multiple level 80s, I take a closer look at it because my experience is that those people often are not willing to focus on their main character as much and would rather go play a random alt than grind rep for that .5% upgrade or what have you.
Well you're just silly and incorrect aren't you.
Exceptional: Showing up to raids on time, with a food buff, and a flask. Having enough gear to progress with the guild you're trying to join (aka not being in heroic gear trying to get into an Uld25 progression guild.) Being good at your character. This is > all. Player skill > gear, every single occasion. You need to put out the DPS/TPS that is on par with your gear. You have to be as good, if not better than other players of your class, even on the same gear level. You have to know what to do, when to do it. You also need to be willing to learn, willing to mess up and openly apologize. You need to know that you're worth your raid spot.
If you ever saw that movie The Replacements with Keanu Reaves, the coach says that a leader always wants the ball. An exceptional raider thinks that the raid will wipe without him, and he's the best person for any particular job in a fight.
I know a few people that have 5+ lvl80s, not because they aren't exception, because they have nothing else to do, you can be good at your main class and have alts, and even be exceptional with your alts. Its all about the player. Some people can handle more than 1 class, some cannot.
Your ad could be here.
It's hard to explain what makes exceptional players, In my opinion it's a measure of "skill", which of course comes from a complete knowledge of their class and their environment (oponents, strategies, encounters, territory, etc.) and an outstanding ability to apply that knowledge flawlessly (part of it is awareness, responsiveness, creativity, innovation, etc.).
Lets use a tanking example: A good tank is a tank that can hold threat from top dps, who can position the tanked mobs correctly, reduce enough damage to make healing viable, implement strategies, and respond appropiately to special circumstances. A good tank most likely does his share of research, and understands the game pretty well. An exceptional tank, not only does research but innovates by creating new strategies and specs; an exceptional tank not only implements strategies but is also able to respond quickly to unexpected circumstances; an exceptional tank not only knows his class, but also understands how other classes interact with him, through buffing, debuffing, healing, etc., and is able to coordinate with these other classes to maximise the potential of the raid.
I consider myself a very good tank, because I do what it takes to be a good tank and more. But every now and then I see a tank do something that makes me think "how the heck did he do that?", and that's the sign of an exceptional tank. By definition, an exception tank is the one who has is able to do feats that most tanks cannot do.
An "Exceptional Player" is anyone thats willing to do whatever is necessary for the betterment of the raid and the guild.
For a lot of the other points players are bringing up, its not so much being an "Exceptional Player" as its being someone with no Real life, or being "hardcore".
For example, the arena team thing from above, i have 3 arena teams all are at sub 1k rating atm because they are what i do in my off time when i am totally bored and just feel like haveing some fun... Does that mean i am a crap raider because i sometimes go in and do naked Arenas, i dont think so.
I have 3 geared level 80's my main being my warrior, but does the fact that i will sit my warrior out on content to allow others to bring their tanks to get gear make me a bad player or instead does that make me an even better guildmate because i will level a toon to help out the guild and sit my main so others can get gear from bosses i am geared from.when I see an app from a person with multiple level 80s, I take a closer look at it because my experience is that those people often are not willing to focus on their main character as much and would rather go play a random alt than grind rep for that .5% upgrade or what have you.
My guild is a casual guild, we still haven't done S3d because honestly we dont feel like doing it, we would rather go do other things than it, does that mean that were total fail, no, it means that some people dont care about a title or an achievement.The first thing I do when I look at a new recruit these days is their achievments. I know people have mentioned gear as being N1 in this thread, but really- gear is decided by RNG. There's people who get 3-5 pieces of their BIS from being dragged through one Naxx25 run while they're blowing up the raid and dumping poison clouds all over the place, while others farm since October and never see the item they really want drop.
Looking at the date when they got their raiding achievements, I can tell plenty about their skill. For example, someone who has had Nightfall since November is definitely a better player than someone who's only managed to get it in March (they'd have less guides to do it and probably worse gear for starters), unless it's an alt they leveled up late.
A date of an achievement just means they got a good group formed quicker than some one else. My shadow priest is my worst toon by far, but it has more achievements done quicker for the simple fact people needed a shadow priest more than they needed my much better played tank.
Some one can be an "Exceptional Player" and have never raided at all, and if your too elitist to realize that i feel sorry for your guild if you ever have a split
I agree with Lizana to an extent. I agree that having an early achievement or BiS gear doesn't make you an exceptional player, it might make you "exceptionally well geared" but the gear does NOT make the player. An exceptional player is exceptional wearing greens, blues or epics, and is also exceptional regardless of whether he is in the top guild of his server or on a more casual guild.
I disagree, however, that "An "Exceptional Player" is anyone thats willing to do whatever is necessary for the betterment of the raid and the guild", that's just a good guildy, because they have to be willing AND able to do what is necessary, and because you don't even need to be in a guild to be an exceptional player.
From my perspective, there are good players who know how to raid, then there are the elitist d-bags on my server who are arrogant pricks that give all their loot to their officers and class leaders before anyone else and there are those who know their roles and put their best effort in. I am kind of in the middle I guess, I hate the overly geared people who can't play to save their lives cause they don't know their class, gear doesn't make the player, the player should earn the gear by being good even with crappy gear. I know a guy who is still using blues and up until a couple of weeks ago generally had pretty bad gear compared to the rest of the raid, the sad thing is that he was able to out DPS half a 25 man raid with both his warlock and rogue. I also dislike the elitist punks who think that they are better then everyone else because they are loot whores that get spoon fed their items because they have the authority to pull rank over other people in the guild, there is one guild on my server that does that and I am surprised more people haven't /gquit cause about 90% of their Conquerer of Naxxaramas group left and I honestly wouldn't sit there and take that kind of crap. I have lots of good gear but it came from me working hard, learning my class was the key component of consistantly getting raid invites because I was always putting out some of the best DPS in a raid, granted when 25 mans rolled around I outgeared most of the other DPS in the group. When I put in the effort of grinding out some heroics to at least be decently geared for Naxx 10, that showed my persistance and willingness to improve, and helping others to understand how to play the same class as me also helped.
The people who pay attention and don't screw around in raids, shut up and just do their work and listen to what they are told to do are exceptional players and I think they are worthy of the gear that drops in raids, those who don't listen and die frequently because they aren't paying attention (and a lot of people can admit they have had this problem before, I have) don't really deserve the loot, especially in 25 mans. I know it's not fair for those who haven't even done 10 man raids, but if you do some research about the raid bosses and what is to be expected beforehand, you are less likely to fail.
Last edited by Rennadrel; 05-18-2009 at 12:45 PM.
Well, this is true but I think that in the context of this website and the OP, they are really asking what it takes to be an "Exceptional Raider" - at least that is how I took it.
It definitely does not make you a bad player and it makes you a great guild mate which may be crucial for the advancement of your guild. Lets be honest though, it is not going to help make you an "Exceptional Raider" and may very well detract from that if you need the experience and/or gear from that raid.I have 3 geared level 80's my main being my warrior, but does the fact that i will sit my warrior out on content to allow others to bring their tanks to get gear make me a bad player or instead does that make me an even better guildmate because i will level a toon to help out the guild and sit my main so others can get gear from bosses i am geared from.
I guess we all have varying definitions of exceptional though. I am a pretty good player, but I do not really think I am "exceptional" compared to the top players in the world. I'm a decent golfer too, but if Tiger Woods is "exceptional", I've still got a long ways to go
Woa, with my reply to Warwrench I did not mean to say that having multiple 80s makes you non exceptional.
What I should have said was that it doesn't matter how many 80s someone has, be it 1, 5 or 10 which makes him/her an exceptional player. If you're recruiting you're looking for someone with a specific class and a specific role. What other characters the recruit has doesn't matter, be it 0 or 100, as long as he's exceptional on the character you want in your raid.
An exceptional player can be several things:
- Top DPS
- Knows every encounter
- Quick reactions
- Always comes prepared.
For me I would personally say that an exceptional player in a raiding environment would be a team player first and foremost. If they have all of the above, great, but I would rather settle for a team player that was "Good" than a "exceptional" player that wants to be a solo star.
25 Teamplayers who are "good" will beat most encounters regularly.
25 Exceptional players who are solo stars (hooray for egos!) will fail the encounter at least half of the time.
Exceptional players... generally willing to push the edge a little, pull the extra DPS while staying alive. BiS gear is irrelevant, except insofar as it shows you've been raiding recently.
But an exceptional DK will have to be a real star. There are 1-2 DKs in most raids, while there are generally about 12 raid spots available for a ranged dps and 6 for healers. So you are competing on an entirely different level. Competing for a very rare raid spot, among a huge population of DKs. For that tanking spot, you are also competing with all the warriors, druids and pallies.
As a DK, I expect you will have to be both an expert tank and an expert DPS to get into a raid spot. Dual spec, and do them both very well. Be unfailingly polite, and never blame your healers.
Great thread. /bookmark.
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