I find one rogue out of about 100 that can beat me while im in my Prot SBV gear...
Reason dismantle isnt as dangerous as it used to be is because any prot warrior who is thinking of pvp is going to have his shield enchanted with Titanium Plating - Item - World of Warcraft
If you get dismantled fear instantly...if they break fear then try to face them for shockwave. That should give you enough time to put the smack down on their pansy cowardly asses.
A good Rogue will always win regardless.
I start with Shield, trinket the Kidney Shot and REND OF JUMP.....and this is where the fight is determined, if the Rogue is bad or average he'll keep up the fight or try to run away, if he "runs" just charge him.
If he's good however, he'll just Dead Zone your Charge....he'll be far enough from melee range, but to close to be charged. He'll then wait for rend to tick off and start all over, only this time you wont have a trinket...>.<
Yeah Prot has no trouble against rogues. I've got a scrolling combat text alert for Kidney Shot so I know when to pop my trinket/EveryMan. Then I save my shockwave for after he Dismantles, and that's pretty much the end for the Rogue. Also I have found that Concussion Blow right off the bat will pretty much end the Rogue right there by putting them on the defensive.
The only way to lose to a Rogue as Prot is to trinket the Cheap Shot instead of the Kidney Shot and to blow your Shockwave before he Dismantles. As long as you get those two things right the odds are very much in your favor.
It seems like Arms has a lot more trouble with them.
Not if you can pre-empt the attack with sword, board and defensive stance. Rogues are beatable with out shield, if you know what you doing.Originally Posted by Brendan
Rogues arent a massive fear, get him to go defensive asap. When you are defensive he will fall with massive shield bashes and revenges. Demo shout, disarm...he will hit like a little school girl
If they catch u off gaurd with a 2h out, trinket out at the right time, fear him and go sword board. Or if you want to play with him: retaliation, charge, rend, ms, OP. BS if needed. He will fall pretty quickly unless he feints. That just makes for a more interesting fight.
Stop talking out your nose, up close and personal a decently skilled prot warrior vs same skill rogue...the rogue will get ripped a new hole.
Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it.
If you actually read the post, it's obvious that I"m talking about being spec'd for Arms.
A Protection Warrior is argueably one of the best 1 v 1 classes and I faceroll the keyboard to victory without breaking a sweat. The only thing I'd have trouble with is a any other tank since they can heal themselves at will.
About rogues, a (i believe) nice trick i read at nomorenoob.com which i had never thought of is to simply stick your back to a wall or pillar or whatever. I know this isn't always possible and i haven't tested it out yet but it seems like a really simple and smooth method to prevent the rogue's exterme burst damage as well as "face back" requiring skills and of course their annoying tendency to run around you with sprint making it really difficult to catch em.
I will try this out but if anyone else cares to do so or already has please post a comment on this
You can beat an equally geared rogue in PVP, but it's going to take some luck. The simple fact of the matter is, a rogue's survivability without cooldowns is almost zero, and the cooldowns they have are completely RNG. Sometimes you're going to lose because you just got one too many avoids, and that's just the way it goes. Amd sometimes you will get lucky, land a MS crit through evasion into a 7K overpower crit, and that's just the way it goes for the rogue.I'm getting my relentless 2her today on my warrior, and I have had a rogue alt for as long as I've had my warrior, so I think I have an OK view of the fight from both sides.
There are 2 basic openers a rogue will do on you, regardless of spec:
Cheapshot -> Dismantle -> Kidney shot after dismantle
Cheapshot -> Kidney shot -> Dismantle
The first one is actually the harder one to deal with, because you don't have a way to trinket dismantle, not that you'd want to. The reason people are saying trinket the second stun is because a good rogue, if you trinket the cheapshot, will immediately dismantle / kidney shot after you pop your trinket before you can do anything else. Keep in mind, this reaction time is something you need to have as well -- you need to get used to hitting Demoralizing Shout the split second you see a vanish go up, to prevent the reopen.
So, the trick to beating rogues, for me: be as aggressive as you can. It REALLY helps if you have a Battlemaster's trinket. Also, for your PVP setup, I highly recommend having a macro for each stance change. Most people have a macro that does the stance cast and equips their 2her or Sword & Board depending on stance. I also add in a cancelaura statement for Bladestorm into my stances. Bladestorm is good, but sitting in bladestorm too long is very bad in some cases.
So, back to our scenarios...
First scenario: Cheapshot -> Dismantle -> Kidney shot after dismantle
If a rogue Dismantles you outside of a cheapshot you typically have a 4-5 second window before they'll use kidney shot. As soon as Dismantle goes up, pop a Piercing Howl, and start to kite. You have to make a decision here. If you can get 5+ yards away without a cooldown, do it. If you can't, the first CD to use is fear. As others said, a good rogue will break the fear, but with latency and reaction time, you'll get at least 1 second to move away. As soon as you pop fear, you should be going into zerker stance so you can get an intercept off (Intercept > charge, here). The big decision is: If you're still not able to get to 8 yards to intercept, it can be worth it to trinket the crippling poison. This may sound dumb, but if you don't shift the pressure to be on the rogue, you're dead anyway.
Once you get the intercept off, your goal is to get off a stance change to battle -> rend -> bladestorm within the duration of the intercept stun. As others mentioned, CloS + Feint will drastically reduce bladestorm damage, but keep in mind it will take them 2 GCDs to get those buffs up, so you're going to get off a couple hits before hand, and of course your auto-attacks that land during bladestorm.
Now again, one of two things will happen.
1) Some rogues will get their buffs up and sit in bladestorm. If this happens, you can either sit the whole duration of bladestorm. OR, one thing that works a lot, do a FAST swap to Defensive Stance + immediate disarm halfway through bladestorm. A lot of rogues will not expect you to cancel bladestorm early and you can catch them with a disarm. Otherwise, sit in bladestorm and I will usually mash my Overpower keybind as bladestorm is ending, since usually you can get one off before the rogue even sees bladestorm is over and stuns you.
2) Once you get bladestorm up, some rogues with vanish to drop slowing debuff and sprint away. If this happens, hit your battle stance macro again once they get out of range (you're already in battle stance, but it will cancel bladestorm) and immediately charge -> overpower -> MS + Heroic Strike with their back turned. Very often = dead rogue.
After either of these, you're most likely going to eat a kidney shot, and possible a vanish + reopen at the end of it. Once I'm out of these stuns, I pop a macro that does Battlemaster's Trinket + Enraged regen, and if I have one, it uses a healthstone. Usually at this point in the fight I will pop Retaliation, it makes the rogue nervous to go as offensive as they'd like, and if they're using SND they'll pay for it. Hit your overpowers / Sudden Death executes as they proc, keep rend and HS up, and it basically becomes a proc war / crit war. The fight from here is mostly a rinse / repeat. Remember to be practically hovering your demo shout keybind in case of a vanish.
Cheapshot -> Kidney shot -> Dismantle: This opener mostly plays out the same. The main difference is, you want to trinket the kidney shot and immediately fear. The goal is to try and get the fear off before Dismantle lands and crippling poison is reappllied. Get to 8 yards, intercept, and you're basically back on the same path.
Of course, there are a lot of things that can happen differently, but this is very, very often the pace that Warrior v Rogue starts off at. Oh, and I never mentioned Mortal Strike -- because in a lot of rogue openers you only have time to spend 1-2 GCDs, and I value Overpower against rogues more than MS. But MS, of course, should be used whenever you have the GCD to spare.
Last edited by Stymie; 09-22-2009 at 08:18 AM.
"Sometimes attaining the deepest familiarity with a question is our best substitute for actually having the answer." -- Brian Greene.
Most rogues no longer use backstab, they are using mutilate, sinister strike, or hemo, so turning your back to the wall will not reduce incoming damage as much as it will against, say, a feral.
However, as with any melee DPS, facing your front to them puts dodge and parry on the combat table, which will reduce incoming damage significantly.
In PVP, always try to DPS from behind and face the melee when you go defensive.
Also, canceling bladestorm is something they won't expect and can allow you to charge in and catch them with their pants down.
You trinket the Kidney shot because he just spent an entire energy bar trying to set up a kill, which he needs kidney shot to do. Also, a lot of rogue teams will try to get the kill inside KS, and trinketing will allow you to intervene your healer (its not gimmicky its an ability blizzard gave you, you're *supposed* to intervene to your healer, warrior PVP 101) when they try that.
Be aware when you trinket its a big, giant sign for rogue teams, especially RMPs, to hit you with a full-duration CC such as Blind or Sheep (which can be and is often glyphed to remove all dots on the target, btw) and switch to your healer.
I'm a big fan of going sword+board as soon as I realize there's a rogue on their team. If he opens on me I'll try to get rend and retaliation up ASAP, and if he opens on my healer or another DPS I'll charge+hamstring+rend ASAP. If he turns around its time for revenge spam, which really wrecks him good.
Rogues are more scary for me when they're on my healer, but they're no slouches when they're attacking plate anymore, either. Going defensive can force them to switch targets though, which significantly reduces their pressure.
Hmm... killed two rogues back to back in Warsong Gulch last night in my Arms spec... it felt good. Especially when the second tried to run, and I was able to Charge - Intercept - Charge him back down.
Not anything spectacular, just thought I'd share, because I thought of this post as I killed the second one.
If you kill 2 rogues back to back in WSG as arms spec you out gear them AND out skill them.Hmm... killed two rogues back to back in Warsong Gulch last night in my Arms spec... it felt good. Especially when the second tried to run, and I was able to Charge - Intercept - Charge him back down.
Not anything spectacular, just thought I'd share, because I thought of this post as I killed the second one.
1v1 vs. a rogue in unconstrained quarters like WSG is a guaranteed loss for the arms warrior. They can just reset the fight over and over until you are out of cooldowns and they stun lock/dismantle you to death.
I've been working on my rogue alt, for the past few weeks and granted I am only 36 I can tell you that in a 1v1 situation I rarely lose and I find casters more of pain than warriors and other melee. I think the key to any strategy with a rogue is that you know he is there and you can see him. I use an addon called Spy, it tells me and makes a noise when an enemy player stealths close enough to me. It uses the combat log to figure this out. Very useful addon in bgs even when I play my rogue. I can tell you the method I use, sneak up to the vic, ambush which should crit about 65% of the time and get 3 combo points, then do ghost strike 1 CP, then Eviscerate. Vanish and repeat except I use sinister strike the 2nd time. I use Wound poison and Crippling poison so you'll only be able to heal 50% of normal and move very slowly. Also I am spec for Prep. so I can reset my vanish CD and do it again a third time. Now granted this is at a low level however, when I get to Mutilate then its ambush, mutilate, eviscerate, vanish, repeat and that will be at level 70 or so. I'll come back then to talk about it more. Most subtlety and assassination rogues will do this give or take a move. For combat rogues, not really sure. Hope this helps.
Beating a rougue also includes putting your back to a wall. don't let him/her get behind you at the start. Start the fight in D stance and use a demo shout or two to bring them out. First thing you should hit them with is rend. They can't get away while bleeding. Disarm them too and hit your enraged regeneration early.Use your fear and then piercing howl. Recklessness, bladestorm and its over quick. Don't forget that in addition to your trinket you can get out of a CC(sap) with Berserker rage.
Yeah I agree with you Bung
I have been trying to get some BG archivements for pass week, meaning doing a lot of AB and WSG. Well I was specing arms at the begining but then my a$$ kept handed to every single opponent. I got 500ish resil. with mostly 245 gears.
Then I put my PVE gear (0 Resil..*cough*)and switch to Prot..
Long story short. Never lost to a single rog., or even 2 at a time.
isnt that the truth? I almost feel bad for the little backstabbersLong story short. Never lost to a single rog., or even 2 at a time.
Well I dont know but I think I'am pretty well geared Troll Protection warrior with 41k HP unbuffed. Da Voodoo Shuffle and Toughness might help a bit too I think. have an extra "mini laststand(juggernut trinket)"...
Well on the other hand..seriously when I play my rog. i know i dont really like to touch anything with a shield except Shaman...
In all honesty rogues are not the problem for a good arms warrio , its a 50/50 win ratio imo for dueling. The problem is Arena, when they come with another class that can cc, they sync so well with casters, it can get very frustating (Its arena 2s and 3s where people hate rogues so much).
I play with a resto druid, and i often find trinketing the kideny shot means my druid dies while im stuck in a full blind/sheep (the mage will sheep when im just about to come out of sheep , making reflect impossible). I have to wish they open on me, and use kidney on me , i will then eat full kidney ( ofc with shiled out and then shield wall as coming out of kidney) and save trinket for blind. THis ofc means sometimes i over extend myself and get killed anyway , i always hate facing rogue teams in arena, even bad geared ones are a menace when accompanied by a dangerous caster. No qq here , apart from the fact i wish my druid wouldnt die so fast.
Mage/rogue combo can uterly destroy my resto druid healer in seconds, if i cant somehow stop of that damage with disarm, bash or hamstring (he has the resi, its just he gets stuck in stuns, remeber even mages can stun now, and the druid will take 9% extar damage in kindey and ofc tricks will be on the mage meaning huge inc damage). The rogue is bascially there to give the mage full reign and burst you down. Seen some lock.rogue teams aswell lately they are a new challenge, tricks. kidney chaos bolt crit is game over in most cases.
Imo though rogues are not as bad as they were if you play smart in 3v3. Its wizard cleave that is the new menance. To beat that you gotta be prot pvp imo.
Last edited by Krays; 12-06-2009 at 01:46 PM.
Go prot and you will destroy most rogues (and most other classes as well). Very, VERY good rogues tho are pretty tough to beat even as prot. I guess the same could be said about very good players of any class/spec.
Piercing Howl = Rogue killer
If a rogue opens on me, I lay back and take the opener. Thats about all you can do. As soon as I am able, I will hit Sheild Wall or Demo shout, spin around, Slam him, Piercing Howl then being to take his leather pants wearing self completely apart.
If he vanishes...so be it...PH pops it again, Charge and finish the kill.
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