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Thread: Stam stacking even worth it?

  1. #1
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    Stam stacking even worth it?

    As most of us know, once you enter ICC you take a Debuff which reduces your dodge....

    I've been told by many respected tanks on my server that Stam is the gem to which you should be gemming. Is this true? Should I gem for stam instead of exper. or parry/dodge?

  2. #2
    Yes.
    With good ICC + Frost Emblem gear, you'll still have 35%+ avoidance unbuffed, and the bosses aren't exactly hitting hard. Might as well whore the Stamina Gems and live it up.
    The Ashbringer...

  3. #3
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    As mentioned in many of threads:

    Chill of the Throne dose not change how you should gear.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  4. #4
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    Search "Chill of the Throne" in the searchbox above and you'll find it's been discussed many times. Armor and stamina is really the only way to gear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  5. #5
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    Make sure it's the search box, not the shout box.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Make sure it's the search box, not the shout box.
    <3
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  7. #7
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    The more I get into ICC the more I believe stacking stam is not the way to go. Many bosses have abilities that charge up based on the successful hits on its main target. Saurfang heals on dmg done, Morgraine charges on times he hits and festergut just starts owning the tank hard. When I die to Festergut it's not by that extra 150 HP my Solid Majestic would have given me over the Regal Dreadstone... its by 10K.

    As a tank your job is to A) hold aggro and B) be easy enough to keep up so that your healers don't go oom and can adjust to fight mechanics if necssary and still keep you up. On festergut I'm going to be alot easier to keep up if I equip Fervor of the frostmourne than if I have 2800 more HP. One because Im dodging more and two because Im mitigating at least 3K dmg per hit with the extra 7K armour(on use). I need to be expertise capped so that he isn't hitting any faster making healing actually impossible. At 30K HP Im seeing alot of 22K hits during 3rd inhale... tell me... are you going to have 66K HP long enough to avoid the 3 hit flurry or is it better to get those hits down to 20K for the entire phase while parrying blocking and dodging more. Ill take the latter and so will my healers.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by pentor View Post
    The more I get into ICC the more I believe stacking stam is not the way to go. Many bosses have abilities that charge up based on the successful hits on its main target. Saurfang heals on dmg done, Morgraine charges on times he hits and festergut just starts owning the tank hard. When I die to Festergut it's not by that extra 150 HP my Solid Majestic would have given me over the Regal Dreadstone... its by 10K.

    As a tank your job is to A) hold aggro and B) be easy enough to keep up so that your healers don't go oom and can adjust to fight mechanics if necssary and still keep you up. On festergut I'm going to be alot easier to keep up if I equip Fervor of the frostmourne than if I have 2800 more HP. One because Im dodging more and two because Im mitigating at least 3K dmg per hit with the extra 7K armour(on use). I need to be expertise capped so that he isn't hitting any faster making healing actually impossible. At 30K HP Im seeing alot of 22K hits during 3rd inhale... tell me... are you going to have 66K HP long enough to avoid the 3 hit flurry or is it better to get those hits down to 20K for the entire phase while parrying blocking and dodging more. Ill take the latter and so will my healers.
    No. And I won't be explaining why, either. It's all over the forums with plenty of math to debunk your opinions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by pentor View Post
    The more I get into ICC the more I believe stacking stam is not the way to go. Many bosses have abilities that charge up based on the successful hits on its main target. Saurfang heals on dmg done, Morgraine charges on times he hits and festergut just starts owning the tank hard. When I die to Festergut it's not by that extra 150 HP my Solid Majestic would have given me over the Regal Dreadstone... its by 10K.

    As a tank your job is to A) hold aggro and B) be easy enough to keep up so that your healers don't go oom and can adjust to fight mechanics if necssary and still keep you up. On festergut I'm going to be alot easier to keep up if I equip Fervor of the frostmourne than if I have 2800 more HP. One because Im dodging more and two because Im mitigating at least 3K dmg per hit with the extra 7K armour(on use). I need to be expertise capped so that he isn't hitting any faster making healing actually impossible. At 30K HP Im seeing alot of 22K hits during 3rd inhale... tell me... are you going to have 66K HP long enough to avoid the 3 hit flurry or is it better to get those hits down to 20K for the entire phase while parrying blocking and dodging more. Ill take the latter and so will my healers.
    You don't have to have 66k HP to take 3 fast hits in a row. You have to have enough HP so that the heals that happen between the hits get you up enough that you can survive the next one.

    Let's say Fester is hitting you every second.

    Tank A has 51k HP (Stam Stacker). Tank B has 42k HP (Avoidance Stacker). He hits you for 22k, you said? That's around once per second at 3 stacks, I believe. In the worst case scenario, in the time it takes for the boss to get off 3 hits (2 seconds), maybe you only get 1 heal for 18k.

    The 51k HP tank:
    0.00 seconds: 22k hit, tank is 29k/51k
    0.90 seconds: tank receives a heal for 18k, tank now has 47k hp
    1.00 seconds: tank hit, now has 26k/51k
    2.00 seconds: tank hit, tank has 4k hp

    You survived, and everyone else's healbombs now have time to land on you.

    The 42k HP avoidance tank:
    0.00 seconds: 22k hit, tank is 20k/42k
    0.90 seconds: heal for 18k, tank is 38k/42k
    1.00 seconds: tank is hit, now has 16k/42k
    2.00 seconds: tank is hit, now has -6k hp (dead)

    Those numebrs are obviously made up on the spot, but you get the idea. You can make the argument that the avoidance tank is more likely to avoid one of those hits, but the thing is that even with high avoidance tanks, strings of bad luck do occur, and more often than you might think. A tank has to be able to handle those strings of bad hits long enough for his healers to land their heals on him. Having more EH gives the healers a larget time window in which to get the tank back up to full.

  10. #10
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    Pentor, Saurfang does not hit harder by the more damage he does making how you gear irrelevant, on Gunship unless you are doing I am on a Boat it doesn't matter. Where I most disagree with you is on Festergut, I see alot of tank deaths by 5-6k if you are popping all your cooldowns and again you can't expect to be at 100% the whole fight. On stack 3 it doesn't matter because of all your CDs anyways, on stack 2 where you can only use minor CDs is where it matters.

    A perfect way to look at Festergut is "Burst Time To Live" on the EJ spread sheets done by solid numbers and on those stamina is valued much higher than avoidance. By stacking avoidance you are basically praying to the RNG gods that you avoid the attack before you get insta-gimped.
    Last edited by krc; 01-21-2010 at 02:58 PM.

  11. #11
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    That being said - there are some raid advantages to having more avoidance on Lana'thel, as avoidance is essentially double value due to the way blood mirror works.

  12. #12
    Many bosses have abilities that charge up based on the successful hits on its main target.
    I can think of one, and you're generally not on him more than 25% of the fight.

    Saurfang heals on dmg done
    No, he does not. (You're swapping on Mark of Blood, yes?)

    Morgraine charges on times he hits
    Who?

    and festergut just starts owning the tank hard.
    Not based on any "charges" when he hits someone.

    On festergut I'm going to be alot easier to keep up if I equip Fervor of the frostmourne than if I have 2800 more HP
    That's a hard statement to make as an absolute.

    At 30K HP Im seeing alot of 22K hits during 3rd inhale... tell me... are you going to have 66K HP long enough to avoid the 3 hit flurry
    Third inhale is a cooldown phase anyway. But sure, I'll have ~90k hp for most of third inhale phase and Barkskin/Pain Suppression for some of that and the rest.

    or is it better to get those hits down to 20K for the entire phase while parrying blocking and dodging more. Ill take the latter and so will my healers.
    Or *hope* you parry and dodge more. I'll say no thank you as a tank and a healer.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    That being said - there are some raid advantages to having more avoidance on Lana'thel, as avoidance is essentially double value due to the way blood mirror works.
    While understand what you're saying, having tanked it I disagree. I had to use a lot of cooldowns because she hits pretty hard, with beacons it really wasn't hard to keep up our offtank (who was wearing shadow resist gear at the time to see if it worked, by the way it does not work, and our OT never died). Actually I'd say if anything is better it is armor.

    Edit: oh and btw EHP is still > RNG, nothing has changed.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  14. #14
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    It's not that hard to keep the OT up - but if for some reason you're having issues with healing or even bring fewer healers, one way to minimize overall damage taken is to have avoidance on the MT. That may come into play more on the hard mode where her damage aura is boosted by the number of vamps in the raid, and minimizing damage is important.

    But it's only a slight boost, and it's not really controllable to any great degree.

  15. #15
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    Surely theres a point at which stam stacking is no longer vital? I mean I'm 43.3k hp unbuffed and haven't got any 264 armor yet and I've already dropped +18hp on gloves for +15 expertise.

    Sure stack the stam if you've got low hp, you'll probably need it. I'd rather start meeting some socket bonuses and picking up some threat to hold off the 10k+ bursty dps.

  16. #16
    Surely theres a point at which stam stacking is no longer vital? I mean I'm 43.3k hp unbuffed and haven't got any 264 armor yet and I've already dropped +18hp on gloves for +15 expertise.
    /gasp!!

    You don't ask casters, "Do you really need more spellpower?" do you? =D

  17. #17
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    You don't ask casters, "Do you really need more spellpower?" do you? =D
    You don't, but the analogy isn't apt. You don't 'tank harder' if you have more stamina. It doesn't help you get more threat or take less damage. All it does is let you take more damage while your healers go play peggle or something. And at some point your healers have enough time to play peggle that they don't really care what your stamina is.

    Basically: when you get to the point where you have so much stamina that your healers are competing with the other DPS in your raid to see which of them can do more damage, stamina loses its sheen.

    Or: stamina helps to solve a problem (survival, specifically survival based on how much incoming damage you can take at one time). If you have other problems such as threat or healers not being able to heal you up in time (it's not just mana that you're saving healers, it's their HPS too) or taking too much damage or simply not looking shiny enough, stamina is probably not going to solve that problem by itself.

    Unless you're a bear. In which case stamina solves all problems simply by making every other tanking class QQ moar.

  18. #18
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    If you are surviving easily and your guild is having problems with dps wether it is with an enrage timer, burning down adds or some other mechanic it is a better overall choice as a tank to maximize your dps. I could see Gunship favoring avoidance if the boss buffs strength doubles on heroic and Saurfang on heroic will most likely slightly favor avoidance or threat since on hardmode the biggest challenge on him will probably be the enrage timer or overall raid member damage.

    An then there will be Heroic Festergut and Marrowgar who will have to compensate for their overall easy raid mechanics with tank damage and stacking EH will be abolutely needed instead of being almost meaningless like increasing damage and avoidance on fights like Heroic Saurfang and Gunship unless they increase the buff and others where the hardmode difficulty will be in overall raid awareness.
    Last edited by krc; 01-21-2010 at 04:07 PM.

  19. #19
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    I honestly have no problem having so much stam that my healers can play peggle and not worry about it.

    However, I like to think it helps out with the non-ideal cirumstances. Trying out a new healer that's kinda bad, or a new fight where you don't know what's gonna happen or healers D/C'ing or something and you need to be able to stay alive until they're back, or a healer just flat out has a brain fart. Having more stamina makes things lulzy, and I have no problem with fights being lulzy if I can help it.

    You can never have enough HP. I had a healer in an H-UK the other day that was so bad I was having to use my cooldowns on every timer because I kept getting ridiculously low. I had 56k HPs and 36k armor in a heroic, and the healer was having problems keeping me up because the healer was so bad (that and the dps were awful too, Warlock doing 1.5k dps, DK doing 1k dps, and a hunter doing 500dps). I they had had a lesser geared tank they would have wiped a lot.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  20. #20
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    You can never have enough HP. I had a healer in an H-UK the other day that was so bad I was having to use my cooldowns on every timer because I kept getting ridiculously low. I had 56k HPs and 36k armor in a heroic, and the healer was having problems keeping me up because the healer was so bad (that and the dps were awful too, Warlock doing 1.5k dps, DK doing 1k dps, and a hunter doing 500dps). I they had had a lesser geared tank they would have wiped a lot.
    And the best part? If you had swapped to your Anub block set you wouldn't have even needed a healer.

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