Removal of AGI as a DPS Stat for Warriors.
I'd like to throw out for discussion something I've been looking at for about 6 weeks now, done quite a bit of researching on and I think I have found a problem with Warrior DPS.
Blizzard themselves have stated Fury Warriors were doing too much damage. Most Fury Warriors agree with this. Their fix was to place a 10% reduction on TG. This change is the game mechanics equivalent to turning up the Stereo because you can't work out where that knocking noise is coming from.
For a while, DPS Warriors have complained about itemization. Blizzard has acknowledged that they do not want leather/mail type items to be BiS (Best in Slot) for warriors. Warriors are a STR based DPS class.
The excess damage, and the leather/mail BiS issue are directly related I believe. I believe (and I will give some examples) that both of these are the result of a combination of itemization for the leather/mail/AGI classes and Warriors Crit scaling too fast and too high from AGI --> Crit % conversion.
- Fact : There are no Plate items above Heroics that have AGI on them in WotLK
- Fact : STR based Plate has STR, STA and 2 DPS stats (and sometimes gem slots).
- Fact : Leather/Mail items have AGI, STA and 3 DPS Stats, one of which is generally always Attack Power (AP)
We will ignore STA on both kinds of items, it's a survival stat, not a DPS stat and while it helps you live, it's not contributing to the problem at hand.
We are left with :
Armor on plate gives minimal AP amounts, so the difference between Leather/plate armor values does not in any way makeup for what is usually between 1-3% bonus free Crit %.
- Plate providing AP and 2 DPS stats.
- Leather/Mail giving Crit %, AP and 2 DPS stats.
If we remove totally the AGI --> Crit. STR Plate suffers nothing. Leather/Mail/AGi based items are no where near as inviting. They have AP and 2 DPS Stats now (same as Plate), but suffer from generally LESS AP because they dont get the 20% to STR, and less AP from less Armor.
If you modify Landsouls DPS spreadsheet, which I don't think many people will say is worthless, to not convert AGI --> Crit (I just deleted the AGI from all the items in the lookup tab) and un-nerf the Tg 10%, you will find that BiS is plate/STR based items, and Crit is down about 5-7%, aswell as a reduction in DPS.
all this without having to reitemize or use bandaid mechanics such as a 10% nerf across the board.
Problem is this "fix" bends Prot warriors over a table. We like to crit too, and we get no crit from our gear except from the agility on it. We have some crit from talents, but those abilities that aren't included in the talents would then have a 0% crit chance.
Blizzard would have to introduce a new wave of STR accessories. ATM, they can just allow 1-2 STR pieces to be BiS, and the few agi pieces to be the steps up to them.
I think it makes perfect sense for strength-based dps classes to get their crit from strength as well.
Of course, balancing it out would be tricky, but it'd solve the issue quite nicely.
I dunno what prot gear you are wearing but none of mine has any AGI, infact the only AGI i have it from the leg enchant.
Originally Posted by Amanrah
They introduced a lot of STR pieces with ulduar, however the AGI pieces in a lot of cases are STILL BiS.
I dont agree with Crit from STR, that just makes the same problem, diff stat. The issues is we have too much Crit decked out in AGI gear. Too much Crit = Too much DPs = Nerf'd TG.
It would solve the issue of plateys walking around in leather.
Originally Posted by Warwench
It would solve the issue of plateys wanting agi for dps.
It would allow plateys to still get crit from stats. (People would moan to no small amount if they lost that, no matter the balance it'd bring.)
It would remove most AGI pieces from the BiS list.
It would make sense, if you value such things. (Getting a critical because you put so much force behind the blow that you damaged a bone instead of getting a critical because you are quick enough to move the blade to a vulnerable spot.)
Right but just removing AGi -> Crit would solve those same problems, AND it would stop the stupid scaling Fury DPS has with BiS items, which is from excessive Crit. Adding Crit back to come from STR would not solve that.
Our gear is already itemised with Crit Rating on it in lots of palces. No need for us to get Crit Rating AND Crit % from the same pieces of gear, we'd be back to where we are now.
If they added crit to str and reverted the improved zerker stance change it would be more balanced than it is with the crit coming from agi. Keep in mind that adding crit to str doesn't necessarily mean that they have to add it at the same rate that it is for agi currently. They could adjust the values as needed to produce balanced results.
Adding crit to str would also greatly benefit tanks who have a decent amount of str on their gear but zero crit or agi (except for bears).
I disagree with this. Killing agility for warriors will kill the beneficial effects from other buffs like Horn of Winter or Totems.
If Blizzard doesn't want warriors wearing leather, get the game mechanic on ArP up to where its similar or better than Crit for SEP values (I think its close for fury now). If that still doesn't work restrict the types of armour Warrior's can wear. I'd wear cloth to dps if it had the right stats and was BiS.
We are all min/maxer's looking to get the best out of our gaming experience. Want us to wear plate? Make better plate.
I think you are missing the point, those buffs buff STR as well as AGI.
You only think Plate sucks because you are used to seeing Leather with such awesome stats for Warriors. If you take the AGI -> Crit OFF the leather, the leather isnt so super hot anymore, it's just like the plate and the Warriors would not need to be adjusted.
I get exactly what you are saying. What I'm saying is why make complex changes that mess with another classes armour and the game mechanic in general. Warriors should wear plate, so make good plate - and I think Blizz is getting closer with the newest stuff and the ArP revamp.
If leather is still a problem for scaling because of double dipping on stats to create insane crit (which I did enjoy immensely), just eliminate leather from a warriors list of available armours. Done & done.
No I dont thin you got exactly what I am saying or you wouldnt be thinking we are making complex changes that mess with another classes armor.
It's really really really simple. Dont touch leather at all, just stop Warriors from converting AGI into Crit. No changes to any items, no changes to any other classes but Warrior.
Let me show it to you this way.
2 Gear Lists build on the starter SEP Values, except the second one gives AGI a SEP of 0, as if AGI did nothing for us.
Notice what kinds of items are now BiS? Plate/STR items, as it should be.
The change is really simple, modify the AGI->Crit coefficient for Warriors to 0. Warriors Crit stops scaling stupidly high with leather/mail pieces, Warriors go back to using Plate as BiS, Warrior DPS drops a bit to where it should be, without having to do the TG 10% nerf, which is a bandaid because they can't track down WHY Warrior DPS Scales so well high end and why we wear leather in slots.
I'd be heavily affected by this. My STR is quite low, my Crit is anywhere from 40-42% unbuffed (about 50% 25 man buffed), my DPS would drop like a rock until I replaced my AGI items with STR items. But taking the TG nerf out, and wearing plate items, my DPS would be about where it should be.
If this idea went through, and its not a bad idea, they would need to also include a small modifier to our crit % based on STR.
The reason is two-fold. 1) Rings, necklaces, capes & amulets have agility on them. They rarely have str, this would be a straight-up nerf. 2) Removing any benefit from agility would decrease the effects of blessing of kings, mark of the wild, horn of winter/strength of earth, also another nerf.
The reason would be that if they just removed the modifier from agility, the bonus of things like horn of winter, motw & blessing of kings would scale down, hurting us.
Another solution would be to put another type of modifier into armored to the teeth for either more AP or crit. However this would create problems/changs for prot warriors threat/dps.
I count at least 8 rings with STR, 7 of those also have Crit.
I count 6 necks with STR, 4 of which have Crit.
6 cloaks, 3 of which have crit.
If you do STR->Crit you are back to the same problem. Crit Scaling too high.
there is plenty enough crit gear on normal STR items. And plenty of STR items with Ulduar/Naxx. They might need to look at a select handful of purple quest rewards and put a STR option in though.
Yes, HoW, Bok, MotW would scale down, hurting us.
We are already hurt though, a flat 10% nerf to all damage while DW 2 H Weapons. That is in place because those things you mentioned scale too well.
We NEEDED a nerf, that much is obvious.. we HAVE been nerf'd. Back out the TG Nerf, remove AGI-Crit. It's a nerf that makes more sense than the "we dont know what the problem is but you are 10% too high so here, take a 10% nerf to the nuts" we have now.
Personally I'd just lower the amount of crit Agility gives Warriors, and add an equivilent amount of crit to Strength*. Nothing major though, just enough to convince Fury Warriors to take Strength over Agility.
It would also give Prot Warriors a reasonable buff to bring their DPS to the levels of other tanks, not to mention make Strength gems more useful.
Doing all that also makes it easier to balance itemisation so all the classes are reasonably happy.
* Edit: just to clarify: make it so you get about half as much crit as you get currently from Agility. That would lower total crit by a reasonably large chunk, and raise attack power slightly from the extra armour to balance (and giving Fury Warriors an image other then being 'rogues in plate').
You raise an interesting point, however I hate to be the one that totes in the 'bias' word, and I'm not throwing it out willy-nilly, but rather with some research (while doing my own ulduar shopping list).
The Ulduar geared warrior would lose nothing - as there is an insurmountable amount of strength based necks, rings, cloaks etcetera that are actually more appealing to arms and fury dps warriors over agility counterparts (especially with talent changes.)
However, the issue would lie with 'spanning the gap' to said gear, which is littered with agility-based thinking since the days of classic. If this agility change were to go through, then there would be severe retroactive repercussions, particularly in the ulduar pre-gearing phase.
Now, I'm not saying that bc/classic is important anymore (unless you live under a rock or wear a tinfoil hat to prevent expansions from scanning your brain) but the unfortunate souls (such as myself, who tried very hard to stay away from the temptation of mail/leather in the first place) would be trampled on while those that have most of ulduar on farm would feel hardly the brush off.
Now, your statement that 'you would be in the same boat' and the truth it holds could very well be true at this moment. However, you are better positioned to deal with the rammifications then some other plate dps. In which case I understand the oversight, and this isn't an attempt to goad an arguement (as I do think your idea does have merrit, it's just the natural skeptic in me to ask the question "If the 10% redux to str was a simple band-aid solution, who's to make sure we're not replacing it with another one?"
As it is, everyone is considering endgame scenarios, which is fine for discussion for many things. The deal is, weather you consider the 'rest of the server' a boat anchor or not - they still must be taken into account. I'm just being the devil's advocate asking you the question that makes all that stand on the soap box sweat a little:
"What about the little guy?"
I think you need to define little guy.
There is very little plate armor with AGI in WOLK, there is some in BC, but mostly in raids (which very few people do anymore).
This change does not make jewlery with AGI useless, it just means that it is the same as jewelery with STR. You will get AP, and 2 DPS stats. Right now you get AP, Crit % and 2 DPS Stats (with the BiS pieces usually having Crit Rating as one of those).
We need a reduction in Crit, Crit is what scales badly with excessive AGI items at higher levels.
Take a look at this.
I am using Landsouls Current Spreadsheet. with my gear from earlier this week. In current form, I was 40% Crit, with usual buffs landsouls said about 4500 DPS (that includes the 10% TG Nerf). With no 10% TG Nerf Landsouls says about 5K DPS. I reularly hit the 4.5K on bosses.
If I remove the 10% nerf, and zero out the agi on ALL the items (so we get 0 agi from them) my Crit drops to 35%. Still respectable.. but look, DPS is down from 5K to 4.6K, right about what it is with the TG Nerf.
Big Deal I hear people say?
The major differnece is on the equipment listing tabs, ALL the items at the top (BiS) are PLATE items, not Leather, not AGI, STR based DPS items.
So, our DPS scales better to about where it needs to be, our reliance on leather/AGI items is gone and now Plate is BiS. Those are what Blizzard is aiming for, this change gets them there.
Here are the 2 lots of stats.
interesting. and by doing this, they'll smooth out our rage again by lifting the 10% nerf on TG.
Ok I follow your arguement on fury, so rather then 100% unconvinced, I'm now 50/50. Arms is a similar beast, and with ArP still being a mysterious cloud of 'probable goodness' that I perhaps improperly mitegate with a severely broken (as in the positive form) trinket. So for now I thrive off crit and rolling up DW strong.
Same spreadsheets with a standard arms build (feel free to use my probably totally messed up gear choicing on Conreeaght of Stormrage) then you might sell me....to a point. I mean, the best theories are the ones you can (and should) scrutinize forever and still hold their own.
Here ya go.
Standard (ish - i dont play arms much, but I keep up on the specs) Build. Roughly the same gear, enchanted/Gem'd a little diff.
and with No AGI.
So both the No AGI sets are about the same DPS, and about the same as a 10% TG Nerf Fury Warrior, yet BOTH specs have plate BiS.
This makes 100% sense to me.