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Thread: 3.1 Arms Gear - Capping ArPen

  1. #1
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    3.1 Arms Gear - Capping ArPen

    Was bored today, so thought I'd see the latest calculations on the ArPen changes over at Elitist Jerks - Official 3.1 Changes. According to what's there, looks like ArPen will be higher in SEP than Str (~1.3-1.5 SEP), bringing back the gear style of pre-3.0 Arms. But this time, we'll be not only gearing for it, but gemming as well when needed to reach the soft-cap (304 Rating for non-Mace Arms).

    Apparently, Grim Toll will be the trinket not to be replaced through Ulduar due to the proc (hello, 49.7% ArPen!), so if you've got one, hold on to it and never let go. Thanks to the aforementioned boredom, I went through the known loot on WoWhead, and made up the following gear-set with the following emphasis on stats: Hit/Expertise (until Capped) -> ArPen (to 40% from gear)-> Str -> Crit -> Haste.

    The following build was used 54/17 (assuming Feral Druid for Mangle, hence no Trauma), so only 3.5% Expertise/118 Rating is needed to cap.

    All gem-slots are used for Bold Scarlet Ruby except where noted. (PS: Almost forgot, I'm BS/JC, so meta-requirements are taken care of by Prismatics where noted. Non-JCs will have to fiddle with gem placement to maintain an active meta: Sovereign Twilight Opal should be used in that instance.)


    Head: Warhelm of the Champion- +50AP/20 Crit, Chaotic Skyflare Diamond; Bold Dragon's Eye for socket bonus

    Neck: Favor of the Dragon Queen

    Shoulder: Valorous Dreadnaught Shoulderplates- +40AP/15 Crit

    Back: Drape of the Deadly Foe- +22 Agi

    Chest: Steelbreaker's Embrace- +10 Stats

    Wrist: Bitter Cold Armguards- +50AP; BS Socket

    Hand: Conqueror's Siegebreaker Gauntlets- +44 AP; BS socket

    Waist: Belt of Colossal Rage- Belt Buckle

    Leg: Plated Leggings of Ruination- +75AP/22 Crit; 2x Bold Dragon's Eye for socket bonus

    Feet: Melancholy Sabatons- +32 AP

    Ring 1: Greatring of Collision

    Ring 2: Strength of the Automaton

    Trinket 1: Darkmoon Card: Greatness

    Trinket 2: Grim Toll

    MH Weapon: Lotrafen, Spear of the Damned- Berserker

    Ranged: Envoy of Mortality

    With that gear set-up, the following stats for an unbuffed human warrior are:

    Armor: 14590
    Strength: 1442
    Agility: 405
    Stamina: 1520
    Hit: 7.23% (237 Rating)
    Crit: 37.93% (838 Rating)
    Exp: 6.6% (118 Rating)
    ArPen: 36.72% (329 Rating +10% Battle)
    Haste: 2.84% (93 Rating)
    AP: 4203

    Hit is only to 237 due to my character being Alliance, so a replacement of two Bold Scarlet Rubies to a Rigid Autumn's Glow and Etched Monarch Topaz will put Horde ~0.1% over the specials' cap. (Suggested placement: Yellow socket on Shoulders for +4 Crit, Conqueror's Siegebreaker Gauntlets for +4 Hit)

    I know the crit seems especially low given that we're now used to running with 42-45% unbuffed in current BiS, but if you remember back to SSC/TK days, this seems about right for a full mid-tier kit. After raid buffs, you should be sitting around 47-49%, so it won't be too far off current 'crit feeling'.

    Questions, comments...?
    Last edited by Sural; 04-09-2009 at 12:00 PM. Reason: Updated to new ArPen formula-cap

  2. #2
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    What about Shoulderguards of Opportunity - Item - World of Warcraft for the shoulders instead?

    You loose a bit of strength, but you can gem for some more ArP.

    I am really looking forward to Arms being viable in PvE again!

    -Tankar

  3. #3
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    I was under the impression gemming/gearing for crit was the way to go for arms until 40% unbuffed in battle stance. Is this still the case?

  4. #4
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    @Tankar: You could put those in, but the set I made already is over the ArPen softcap, so you're sacrificing some of the AP that you can gear for for the (minutely) lessened efficacy of the Grim Toll proc.

    @Hamburglar: I'm going to strip a post from EJ again (credit to Tichpys), as the poster seems to have presaged your thought quite well:

    "Random musings on ArP interaction with crit:

    A given armor penetration rating or rating increase yields a calculable relative increase in non-bleed physical damage. The relative (%) gain in damage dealt by some non-bleed ability or white swing due to ArP is independent of AP, haste, or crit. This makes it quite easy (as compared to some of the other theorycrafting calculations) to work out the net effect of armor penetration rating or rating increase on one's non-bleed damage output.

    In reality, warriors have significant damage components unaffected by ArP: deep wounds and rend. This complicates things slightly, since the relative gain in damage from ArP affects only some fraction of our total damage table. i.e. if the total contribution of rend and deep wounds to your damage output were 50% (example number), then ArP is only affecting half of your damage. This tends to reduce the SEP of ArP.

    Given this high-level description of ArP, the point of this post is briefly mention how crit rating probably affects the usefulness of ArP. For arms warriors, bleed-to-nonbleed damage ratio is driven heavily by crit rating. There are some other weaker effects, since bleed damage (rend/DW) use unnormalized damage values, while many of the nonbleed (OP,MS,EX) abilities use normalized values. However, the largest driving factor on the bleed-to-nonbleed ratio will be crit rating. As crit rating increases, more of our total damage dealt shifts to being unaffected by ArP, and the SEP of ArP decreases.

    I am not 100% familiar with the current SEP values of ArP in 3.1, but my understanding is that ArP is generally much better than even strength. The above does not suggest that ArP will necessarily become less valuable than other stats, but this slightly unintuitive negative-feedback effect of crit on ArP may shift it's 1.0 SEP crossover point as a function of AP or whatever.

    I'm sure simulators/spreadsheets take this into account, but it was kind of interesting to me to think about and spell out in words."

    TL;DR version: Low crit = ArPen good as you get more damage from your non-Bleed based damage. High crit = worry less about ArPen as Deep Wounds/Rend (which ignore all armor) percentages of your total damage increase.

    Just remember that we don't have a full list of loot from Ulduar yet, so what I pulled from may not even be half the loot table, and this was more an exercise for me to keep me busy and maybe interest one or two others. Yes, you can get significantly higher Crit values by stacking leather gear that's listed over the plate I stuck to, but Bliz seems to have taken the anti-Str route with that, backloading the leather with significantly more Agi than AP (as you can see in Lotrafen's case), meaning, yes, we would be rolling DW more often, but we'd be hitting like wet noodles, even on crits. And since, as Arms, we want the slowest weapon possible to take advantage of our non-normalized attacks (aka Slam) and their greater usage of high AP...

    Addendum: Something that I saw on another thread, I keep having to remind myself of- we're now used to running around with 40%+ crit rates in the first tier of raiding gear. In vanilla and BC, that's about 10% higher than the introductory raiding gear. Attaining high 30s for mid-tier gear is not bad, as the gear is still not meant to be an ideal gear set-up. (My 'ideal' != Bliz's 'ideal' though: I agree the plate itemization is frakked up.) If you can't bear to give up your crit now though, realize that I always gem for Strength and nothing but. Replace the gems to fit your favored playstyle.

    Double addendum: 'course, all the talk of armor penetration is moot if Blizzard pushes 3.1 live with it having a 0.0125% increase in efficacy instead of the 25% increase it's supposed to be.

  5. #5
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    Interesting post, thank you for posting it. Seems like the general idea for which stats are useful is out there but which is best is still up for debate.

    I guess we'd have to see some testing of high crit/low armor pen vs. low crit/high armor pen and see how it evens out. On the surface it would seem having more damage coming from bleed effects would be a good thing because it totally ignores armor.

    My arms dps set is currently gemmed entirely for crit rating and honestly if I were to re-gem it for strength or armor penetration there's no way I'd be at around 40% unbuffed in battle stance.

  6. #6
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    @Sural Hey there i have been testing out strength gems over ArP and there is a significant increase in my dps when attacking the target dummy when going too ArP instead of strength....however in a raid setting ArP does not scale the same as Strength does with buffs and etc, and i actually saw my dps decrease from when i had my strength gems in has anyone else found the same thing??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meltar View Post
    @Sural Hey there i have been testing out strength gems over ArP and there is a significant increase in my dps when attacking the target dummy when going too ArP instead of strength....however in a raid setting ArP does not scale the same as Strength does with buffs and etc, and i actually saw my dps decrease from when i had my strength gems in has anyone else found the same thing??
    Yea and to me that makes sense. I don't always trust or believe all the logical mathematical formula's for stats when it comes to new patches and speculative research. There is not enough baseline test done for me to regem or spend any money changing my gear.
    There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. -Hunter Thompson

  8. #8
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    yeah i find it so funny how i see all these people rushing to regem everything for ArP but they are forgetting that it may look better solo vs. a target dummy, but in a raid environment with king,mark of the wild, etc that will scale strength.....these things do not scale ArP so yeah save yourself the money unless your bound for grinding only

  9. #9
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    i actually got opposite results, against the dummy my dps was lower, but in raid my dps was higher. Basically the raid buffs helped me fill in the stats that I was missing (balanced my overall stats out) while maintaining a higher ArP. Against the target dummy i was sitting at lower crit, and lower ap, so my numbers were disheartening. With kings, might, motw, horn, etc, my AP went back up to respectable numbers, and I began seeing bigger and bigger hits thanks to my ArP.

    Would I recommend regemming your stuff? Probably not, the spreadsheets are probably your final word on whether you want to do it or not, my spreadsheet shows me putting out over 200 more dps as ArP gemmed than str, and I've gone with it, and it's been working for me.

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  10. #10
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    I have had the same results as Kazey...
    Last edited by Lizana; 04-28-2009 at 11:37 AM. Reason: Mistyped

  11. #11
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    Sorry, sorta forgot I'd started this thread and was wondering why I had Tankspot e-mail...

    As to ArPen gemming, this is my current set-up: http://chardev.org/?template=173228

    I'm at >30% ArPen just from gear, and via gems, gained another ~15% (at 44.66% on the paper-doll). Granted, this is as Arms, so I'm really at 54.66%, but that's the lovely thing about ArPen: as you get more, it gets better and better. That's what most people are tending to neglect. It's assumed by the layperson that just a little bit of ArPen is good automatically, but you have to remember that, to stack ArPen, you have to drop Crit/Str. This lowers your Bleed damage, but increases the importance/percentage of your non-bleeds in your overall damage, thus making ArPen even more powerful to stack.

    So yes, you may see a dps decrease in switching to ArPen gems, but that's because the rest of your gear can't support the Crit/AP loss, even when propped up via raid buffs. As is, when you do have the gear that will keep your crit and ap propped up while attaining a damned good amount of ArPen, you'll be rolling just like we were at the end of BC.

    TL;DR: To quote Wozniakk from the WoW boards (World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Oh Armor Pen...)
    "DISCLAIMER:

    I would STRONGLY advise AGAINST gemming all ArP until you have at LEAST 30% (40% including Battle Stance) PASSIVE ArP.

    Until that point:

    STR > ArP

    After you hit that threshold...as long as you can maintain hit and expertise cap along with ~35% unbuffed crit then go re-gem ArP."
    Last edited by Sural; 05-03-2009 at 10:58 PM.

  12. #12
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    Well i am now at 40.36% arp from gear alone, add in mace spec, executioner, battle stance and grim toll that puts me at 122.36 arp without sunders or FF being up on the mob, and i am still seeing dps increases at that level of arp. Now I have not modeled it fully, but i do belive i am above the point where ARP is suffering from DR, and not giveing as much of an increase as str would be. I need a few more weeks of testing before i can be sure

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