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Thread: 3.1 Bear Specs

  1. #1
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    3.1 Bear Specs

    I have been planning on putting this up for a while, and with the talent changes of 3.1 now probably a week away it is long overdue.

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is the base spec from which all the templates will work off of. You can argue that Primal Precision can be dropped, but you need at least 1 point in it to get further down the tree and 10 free expertise is amazing.

    Survivability build: Slightly different in that you drop imp mangle to pick up Feral Aggression.

    Max TPS: MSS and partial KOTJ provide the highest sustained TPS with an option for burst threat at the trade off of armor.

    Main Tank:
    2 floater points in imp Demo and IW.

    MSS/Imp LOTP: This is my favorite spec to tank 25 with because we always have a frost DK dpsing so there is no need to grab IW.

    MSS/IW: 1 free point, you can drop imp mangle and pick up imp LOTP and PP if you want.



  2. #2
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    Yep, pretty much the builds I've been using. But I'm sure with you posting it will (hopefully) get picked up on more.

  3. #3
    I'd consider pulling points from Feral Instinct to finish out Primal Precision and maybe imp leader on the IW/MS build.

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    I have to say I completely missed PP as a viable use of 2 points but its glaringly obvious now. so I'm gonna take the 2 points from shredding attacks and put them in PP and from Imp LotP into IW Making it the MSS/IW but with 2/2 PP and 2/3 IW.

    If my mind has forsaken me and this is a stupid thing to do please let me know
    Otherwise I would Like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for making this thread and your 'training' Vid they have both taught me amazing things!

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    It's a stupid thing; you should either get three points in IW or none.

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    I was wondering where this thread went. Thanks alot Darksend!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is the base spec from which all the templates will work off of. You can argue that Primal Precision can be dropped, but you need at least 1 point in it to get further down the tree and 10 free expertise is amazing.
    I agree PP can be dropped, and that it is amazing. But you don't need the point filler to move down.

    Everything beyond PP is needs 20 points, and nothing is dependant on it (i.e. Sharpened Claws needed for PP or PF)
    5 pts FA OR Ferocity
    3 pts Thick Hide
    2 pts Savage Fury
    3 Pts Feral Instinct
    2 pts Feral Swiftness
    1 pt SI
    3 pts Sharpened Claws
    3 pts Predatory Strikes
    2 pts Primal Fury
    =24 pts

    So there's 2 extra points that I would consider optional.

    Also Imp Mangle, while really great, I personally would rate it on parr in value as Imp LotP, meaning its a really good talent, but not "do or die" and therefore part of a base talent. I personally always spec into ILotP, those raid heals add up unless you have another feral running as well, which increases you from a survival standpoint, but I would not put ILotP into a base spec either.

  8. #8
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    Old post is old. One would think that a 1 page thread from April titled 3.1 bear tanking would stay buried since it is no longer relevant.

    Especially since it is October and we just were leaked info on 3.3
    The Pwnstar Puddin, Now in a Fun Sized Goblin Shell.




  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pwnanapuddin View Post
    Old post is old. One would think that a 1 page thread from April titled 3.1 bear tanking would stay buried since it is no longer relevant.

    Especially since it is October and we just were leaked info on 3.3
    and what talent changes have happened since 3.1?

    the only reason it is not titles WOTLK talent specs is because it is to reflect that these builds include specs that include primal gore. Before I deleted the old specs from the guide all the specs made before primal gore was a talent did not have berserk in them because of the way wowhead just shifts when talents are added. Also none of those builds have Imp MOTW because imp MOTW did not have the stat bonus until 3.1 either.

    Therefore this is still completely relevent.



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    As a 10man raider(Bear) and 25man Pug'r(Kitty) I find this spec useful, allowing me to perform very well in both tanking and dps with the same spec.

    HybridSpec

    Feral Aggression and Infected Wounds are covered by a ret pally and DK, and I do not have any problems threat wise so do not need imp mangle for tanking. It is useful for dps but I often dps with another feral(bear or Kitty) or with an Arms warrior.

    If you are full PvE you can drop two points into Imp MOTW from Furor. (And lose ImpLoTP if you want)

    Having this spec in 25PUGs is often useful, numerous times I have tanked in my kitty gear with CDs/etc till tank could get BR'd, buffed and healed up.

    My dps is very close to pure dps kitty specs as well, to such a degree that skill > the difference.

    Fyi, my DS is heals ^_^;

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    Having Imp motw is essentially mandatory; why wouldn't you want 2% more all stats? Especially over furor; the best thing furor gives you is at 4/5 anyway.

    Losing 4% more crit is probably doable if you go for agility over arpen. Not optimal, but probably acceptable if you're having to do dps/tank and are pugging 25 mans anyway.

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    Ferter that's a pretty interesting spec. I kinda agree that skill > spec, but I would wager that for kitties, it's more like

    Skill > Gear > Spec.

    I estimate I'm about 300-400 DPS behind a similarly geared kity, but still too far behind a Kittie's full potential for my tastes. I end up getting most of my gear as resto (I am forced to heal alot), but when I do have some choices (tier tokens, emblem purchases) I focus more on my bear spec, and my kitty gear gets the short end of the stick.

    This is the trial spec I am running with, I hope to change soon. My spec is slightly less kitty, slightly more bear than yours.

    Trial Hybrid Spec

    Reasonings:
    1) I just can't give up the 2% to attributes from IMotW. We've been nerfed to the stoneages with respect to stamina since 2.4.
    2) I have infected wounds over Predatory Instincts, I don't have reliable access to Ret Pally/frost DK. In addition, given my gear levels, I don't crit nearly enough for PI to be a significant boost, which is bad for me.
    3) <controversial> I hate 3/5 furor. RNG has shown that it's just too low of a proc rate for it to continue. As a compromise, I took out one point in PP (i'm well over soft cap in bear gear) and dropped it into furor to help smooth it out. Ideally, if I can get more expertise on my cat gear, I'll drop that last point in PP for one point in Imp Mangle, I've read a few people's posts here on TankSpot that it seems to smooth out their bear rotation, and I'm itching to try it.

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    1) I just can't give up the 2% to attributes from IMotW. We've been nerfed to the stoneages with respect to stamina since 2.4.
    Ha. HAHAHA. Haha.

    Hah.

    Heh.

    3/5 Furor is the standard build. It's not remotely controversial. With the change to enrage in 3.2 it's not even all that detrimental. If there was anything more worthwhile in the resto tree to get to naturalist, I'd take that over furor any day of the week. Why would you ever want 4/5 in furor anyway? What does that extra point give you in either cat or bear?

    1 point in imp mangle is an illusion. It's simply not any better. It won't smooth out anything unless you're ridiculously fast and are able to make exactly the right decisions on every single choice of CD.

    Finally, dropping a point in PP for imp mangle is one of the silliest ideas I've ever read. You're choosing to lose 1.25% expertise skill for an odd extra mangle every so often. If you're swimming in expertise, I could vaguely see it (though this also means you absolutely must hit/exp cap your cat), but primal precision is simply the best threat boost you could possibly take for a bear until you're expertise capped, and it's not remotely close. That it also adds a small degree of survival is a bonus.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    Ha. HAHAHA. Haha.

    Hah.

    Heh.
    Yeah. That was my reaction. It's pretty rare to see cookie cutter builds without it.

    3/5 Furor is the standard build. It's not remotely controversial. With the change to enrage in 3.2 it's not even all that detrimental. If there was anything more worthwhile in the resto tree to get to naturalist, I'd take that over furor any day of the week. Why would you ever want 4/5 in furor anyway? What does that extra point give you in either cat or bear?
    Yes, 3/5 is standard, but 4/5 is not. Going 4/5 is why I said it's controversial, I've had many a people argue against 4/5, and sounds like you are in that camp.

    What does it give for cats? not much, unless you are constantly shifting in and out, which means the situation is out of control anyways, and there is something seriously wrong with the raid anyways. So let's leave cats out of furor.
    For bears, it's all about combating RNG for me. I think we both agree that tanking with less than 100% chance of getting rage on shift is workable. However, I find that 60% chance (or more to the point, not having rage 40% of the time) is a bit too risky. I find that 80% is more acceptable to me.
    Caveats:
    1) I spend time a fair amount of time as OT. If you are always MT, this should not be as much of an issue, both because of you should be receiving more incoming damage, and you should not be shifting out of bear form. An OT can be expected to shift out to BRez, innervate, etc. between adds, etc. so shifting in and out is to be expected.
    2) This is also not a problem for target rich environments, where a single initial swipe should fill the rage bar.
    3) I PuG alot. Expecting hunters or rogues to think beyond their epeen and give you a TotT or MD is hopeless in general.

    OK so let's review a situation where RNG is out to screw a druid over.
    MT Pulls (so no going back).
    OT Bear shifts into bear, no Rage. 40% of that happening.
    OT Bear reshifts, hoping for Rage. Chance of occurence? 16%, which is still significant, and RNG is out to screw you, so it fails again.
    OT Bear reshifts again, hoping for rage. There's a 6.5% chance the bear is still screwed ,and from my experience, it's still significant that it happens at least once a raid night.
    By now everything has gone down the tubes as DPS cannot be expected to wait.

    Now let's look at just one extra point on Furor.
    MT Pulls
    OT shifts, no rage, but only 20% chance of that happening (bear is already 1 step ahead of the previous scenario)
    OT Shifts, chance of no rage is... 4%. But let's say it happens.
    OT Shifts, chance of no rage is less than 1%. Now that approaches insignifcance.

    So you ask why not just say the heck with rage on shift and just pop Enrage? Well, remembering the caveats, it just isn't enough initial rage to establish a good initial stranglehold on things. As an example, a warrior can get enough rage from a bloodrage and charge, and so should a bear with both rage on shift and enrage (it's about the same for both processes, RNG notwithstanding). The fact of the matter is that warriors suffer no RNG in the process.

    1 point in imp mangle is an illusion. It's simply not any better. It won't smooth out anything unless you're ridiculously fast and are able to make exactly the right decisions on every single choice of CD.
    I haven't tried it, and I suspect you haven't either. Don't knock it until you have tried it, and post some logs when you do to back your words. I haven't tried it so I can't say yay or nay. Others on this forum have tried it and have found it to feel better, and I take their experience as anecdotal, it feels right but it's something you should try on your own. Bear button pushing, despite being the simplest due to a lack of buttons, tends to approach paladin rotations rather than priority like warriors or DKs. All you need to keep up is lacerate and mangle for idol uptime, possibly FFF and demo roar if your raid composition is really lopsided. If it's a DPS race, then you should be speccing into 3/3 imp mangle.

    Finally, dropping a point in PP for imp mangle is one of the silliest ideas I've ever read. You're choosing to lose 1.25% expertise skill for an odd extra mangle every so often. If you're swimming in expertise, I could vaguely see it (though this also means you absolutely must hit/exp cap your cat), but primal precision is simply the best threat boost you could possibly take for a bear until you're expertise capped, and it's not remotely close. That it also adds a small degree of survival is a bonus.
    Well, I am swimming in expertise as a bear (I am almost hardcapped). And as for hit, I am so far over hit that I have to drop either grim toll or pyrite infuser in favour of the heroism emblem DPS trinket (haven't been able to get anything better yet). And yes, having the extra expertise is very useful for me as a cat, but this is a Hybrid spec, I must compromise my bear and cat abilities. Being a bit below expertise cap is something I am willing to give up as a cat to improve my bear, especially since its impact in cat form is minimal standing behind the boss.

    PP is something that I expect to be constantly changing, as it's only about the expertise, something that can be gained with gearing. The other benefits can't be gained elsewhere. If I bring my cat gear up a bit more, I will have to retake expertise (PP) back again, as expertise vanishes from gear in the next set of upgrades. But beyond that, in current endgame, expertise becomes abundant and I would expect to spec out of PP again.

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    Sorry, I wasn't clear.

    Inhsanity, I was laughing at this:
    We've been nerfed to the stoneages with respect to stamina since 2.4.
    . That's such a ludicrous statement that it's just...I mean, really. Have you looked at the bear health recently? Yes, bears don't have 70k health. They still have 20% more than the next non-blood tank.

    OK so let's review a situation where RNG is out to screw a druid over.
    MT Pulls (so no going back).
    OT Bear shifts into bear, no Rage. 40% of that happening.
    OT Bear reshifts, hoping for Rage. Chance of occurence? 16%, which is still significant, and RNG is out to screw you, so it fails again.
    OT Bear reshifts again, hoping for rage. There's a 6.5% chance the bear is still screwed ,and from my experience, it's still significant that it happens at least once a raid night.
    By now everything has gone down the tubes as DPS cannot be expected to wait.
    Okay.

    Can you give me even one example where this matters even a little bit? Where having 40 rage on the pull matters significantly over 30?

    Just one?

    So you ask why not just say the heck with rage on shift and just pop Enrage? Well, remembering the caveats, it just isn't enough initial rage to establish a good initial stranglehold on things. As an example, a warrior can get enough rage from a bloodrage and charge, and so should a bear with both rage on shift and enrage (it's about the same for both processes, RNG notwithstanding). The fact of the matter is that warriors suffer no RNG in the process.
    Yes, and again - when does this ever actually matter? Are you only tanking Patchwerk?

    I haven't tried it, and I suspect you haven't either. Don't knock it until you have tried it, and post some logs when you do to back your words.
    I have tried it. I'll post logs later, but they're not particularly relevant because the logs aren't going to back up (or not) the inability to be perfect on a rotation or how much it complicates the rotation. Basically 1/3 imp mangle gives you all the complexity of a 3/3 mangle rotation with fewer FFs, fewer mangles, and more filler.

    Well, I am swimming in expertise as a bear (I am almost hardcapped). And as for hit, I am so far over hit that I have to drop either grim toll or pyrite infuser in favour of the heroism emblem DPS trinket (haven't been able to get anything better yet). And yes, having the extra expertise is very useful for me as a cat, but this is a Hybrid spec, I must compromise my bear and cat abilities. Being a bit below expertise cap is something I am willing to give up as a cat to improve my bear, especially since its impact in cat form is minimal standing behind the boss.
    You might want to read the other part of primal precision and what it does to cats. And think a bit more.

    But I'll spoil it for you: the reason that cats can get away with not being hit/exp capped is because they're refunded most of their energy on missed finishers. If they don't get that refund? They absolutely need to be hit/exp capped, because otherwise a miss is a HUGE disadvantage to them. And that refund is provided by primal precision.\

    Finally, you're probably right in that for you specifically, expertise isn't great for a cat. For any cats who are actually doing current content, expertise is fairly hard to come by. There are exactly two slots that have expertise worth noting in 3.2 - the head and the feet, and the feet aren't the best in slot. Now, if you personally are rocking tons of expertise that's great for you. If you're not, it's a very poor choice to give up that talent.

  16. #16
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    Just to point out how silly the stamina thing is, I went and figured out the max health a bear could have after 3.2 gear.

    And it's pretty silly:
    ThinkTank: [Druid]It's time to play that game again - NERF THAT DRUID

    72k with pvp/polar gear, 69k without. Now, tell me again - how has a druid's health been nerfed to the stoneage? Unless you're saying that in the stone age, there are some huge, buff saber-tooth bears wandering around that were 50% bigger than the next bear. I'd agree with that one.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    Sorry, I wasn't clear.

    Inhsanity, I was laughing at this:
    . That's such a ludicrous statement that it's just...I mean, really. Have you looked at the bear health recently? Yes, bears don't have 70k health. They still have 20% more than the next non-blood tank.
    Heart of the wild dropped from 4/8/12/16/20% to 2/4/6/8/10% stamina.
    Armor has dropped from 450% to 370% (tack on extra 12% for thick hide), and that's accepting the loss from trinkets/rings/necklaces/weapons/etc.
    And we got Savage defense as compensation, which pales in comparison to the EH loss.

    Start adding those numbers and see where our EH should be. Yes we have a bigger health pool, but that's because we have more stamina in our gear. Plug in the health numbers with the old talent values above (even if its just stamina).

    Okay.

    Can you give me even one example where this matters even a little bit? Where having 40 rage on the pull matters significantly over 30?

    Just one?
    Single target rotation, again no swipe+crit ragefest.

    FFF - Nothing
    Charge -5 Rage
    Mangle -20 rage
    Maul -10 rage
    --------------
    35 rage
    Demo Roar - 10 rage

    Extra 10 rage from Furor - Priceless. For everything else, there's...

    Sure you might get a bit of rage from dodges and the mangle (assuming you don't miss, because we could be exp capped but not hit capped), but it's not a whole lot of rage. Sometimes you do get a crit hit, sometimes you are hit, and in those cases life is good. But it's too much RNG dependant, which is my point here.

    Is it absolutely impossible to tank with 3/5 furor? No way, the majority of competent tanks make it work all the time, most especially MTs. Am I saying that 4/5 is gospel and anybody that doesn't spec into it is a nub? No, I'm just stating my spec and my opinions. And it works for me, but I constantly re-evaluate and may potentially respec back into 3/5 furor. I was running quite a long time with 3/5 furor and 2/2 PP, and I am willing to explore different specs, which I suspect even you do to. As an OT, I find the small difference in potential rage generation to be enough that it becomes worthwhile trialing (key word, trial spec).

    Yes, and again - when does this ever actually matter? Are you only tanking Patchwerk?
    Please try and be civil, there's just no need to be snide. If you can't handle that much then there is no point in continuing.

    Ony dragonkin adds (sans whelps)
    LJ adds in with some avoidance streaks
    ToCr PvP combat, with shifts out to cyclone/root (or even as cat, the extra 20 energy= significant dps addition)

    I have tried it. I'll post logs later, but they're not particularly relevant because the logs aren't going to back up (or not) the inability to be perfect on a rotation or how much it complicates the rotation. Basically 1/3 imp mangle gives you all the complexity of a 3/3 mangle rotation with fewer FFs, fewer mangles, and more filler.
    Finally, something positive. Quite frankly, a 0/3 mangle rotation isn't that complicated for me, keeping up FFF, Demo Roar, Lacerate and Mangle on the long CD aren't difficult (and would be easier with raids where it is covered elsewhere). Beyond that there are long stretches of maul/swipe. Anybody who has warrior tanked can handle more complexity. I actually find the cat rotation harder, being limited by both energy as well as CP. Bears are limited by GCD and rage, which once you are well established ceases to be a problem (again, my issue is with initial rage management).

    But I'm glad you have tried it and have actually shared something constructive to this post, I'll keep it in mind.

    You might want to read the other part of primal precision and what it does to cats. And think a bit more.
    And when precisely how often do you miss if you are hit capped, soft exp capped and behind the boss? Because being hit/exp capped is pretty high priority as DPS. If you are DPS and not capped, your spec is not your first concern.

    But I'll spoil it for you: the reason that cats can get away with not being hit/exp capped is because they're refunded most of their energy on missed finishers. If they don't get that refund? They absolutely need to be hit/exp capped, because otherwise a miss is a HUGE disadvantage to them. And that refund is provided by primal precision.
    I'd rather not miss at all. And where I am, I can achieve that. I agree that at various stages you may not be capped with something, and there it makes sense to take PP, but it IS POSSIBLE to be capped for both, and therefore you don't need it at some stages.

    Finally, you're probably right in that for you specifically, expertise isn't great for a cat. For any cats who are actually doing current content, expertise is fairly hard to come by. There are exactly two slots that have expertise worth noting in 3.2 - the head and the feet, and the feet aren't the best in slot. Now, if you personally are rocking tons of expertise that's great for you. If you're not, it's a very poor choice to give up that talent.
    Bingo. Because we all can't be end content tanks, and this isn't Endgame TankSpot, we cater to everything from level 1 tanks who have just started the game to server firsts on hard modes. I choose to spend my efforts on several of my toons, and my Tankadin is miles ahead of my bear. I'm still a decent druid.

  18. #18
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    Heart of the wild dropped from 4/8/12/16/20% to 2/4/6/8/10% stamina.
    Armor has dropped from 450% to 370% (tack on extra 12% for thick hide), and that's accepting the loss from trinkets/rings/necklaces/weapons/etc.
    And we got Savage defense as compensation, which pales in comparison to the EH loss.

    Start adding those numbers and see where our EH should be. Yes we have a bigger health pool, but that's because we have more stamina in our gear. Plug in the health numbers with the old talent values above (even if its just stamina).
    So?

    Again, does it matter if things weren't as high as they could be? I mean, you're making it sound so dire, as if stamina was scarcer than dirt and bears were this poor, downtrodden tank.

    The reality is that bears still - even with all of those nerfs - are the best EH tank in existence right now and are better off than they've ever been in the history of WoW.

    Again, I'm calling you on your comment. You said that stamina has been nerfed to the stone ages. Well, in this case the 'stone ages' is 69k health, and 17% more than a similarly geared warrior. I'm sure the warriors would love to be similarly nerfed.

    Single target rotation, again no swipe+crit ragefest.

    FFF - Nothing
    Charge -5 Rage
    Mangle -20 rage
    Maul -10 rage
    --------------
    35 rage
    Demo Roar - 10 rage
    Okay, you have failed to give me one example of where you are doing all of these things (side note: since when is mangle 20 rage?) and not taking in any rage at all and where this matters. In your theoretical example you're spending 4 GCDs and 35 rage, ignoring the first white hit (which would give you rage, since you can't queue maul off of that), and more importantly completely ignoring being actually hit.

    Now, I'll phrase it better since you apparently don't understand: where is it absolutely crucial that as the offtank, you build massive threat immediately on your target over the main tank? The only thing I could think of was Patchwerk. Is there something else?

    Because in every other situation, you'll have more than enough rage as you're actually being hit or dodging enough to where it won't matter.

    Ony dragonkin adds (sans whelps)
    LJ adds in with some avoidance streaks
    ToCr PvP combat, with shifts out to cyclone/root (or even as cat, the extra 20 energy= significant dps addition)
    So on Ony adds, you're not sitting on Ony building rage? Why not? What else are you doing?

    I honestly have no idea what LJ adds are. I hope it beats facebook adds though. Jarraxus? If it's Jaraxxus, you're again able to sit on Jaraxxus and beat on him to build rage. You should have 100 rage by the time any adds spawn. If you're not doing this, why not? That's your only job. Even if you're going kitty, you can beat on the portal as a bear. Even if you're not doing that (because it's normal mode) the mistress hits fast and hard enough to make rage nothing close to an issue.

    ToC Faction Champs, I'll give you - there are plenty of times where I run out of rage there. Assuming I'm not doing the demo roar spam technique, which brings all the mobs to beating you and again gives you tons of rage.

    Again, I'll ask - where do you need rage such that:
    1) you must do all of these things without any damage in
    2) you must be doing maximum threat while someone else is beating on it
    3) you must do all of this in 4 GCDs no matter what

    The only thing I can think is Patchwerk - and that's even iffy.

    .
    And when precisely how often do you miss if you are hit capped, soft exp capped and behind the boss? Because being hit/exp capped is pretty high priority as DPS. If you are DPS and not capped, your spec is not your first concern.
    For a cat, it isn't that big of a priority. Point of fact it's not a priority at all - as long as you have primal precision. If you were wondering why you don't do that great of DPS, that's one big reason right there - you're prioritizing the wrong things. The best stats to get for a cat are either agility or armor pen, depending on your trinkets and armor pen. Hit isn't necessary, but is nice. Expertise isn't necessary, but is nice.

    I'd rather not miss at all. And where I am, I can achieve that. I agree that at various stages you may not be capped with something, and there it makes sense to take PP, but it IS POSSIBLE to be capped for both, and therefore you don't need it at some stages.
    You're right - you don't NEED it for cat if you're soft-capped for expertise and capped on miss. Hopefully.

    And if you happen to have 14% expertise reduction for bear without it, you can get rid of it.

    However - unless both of these things are true, primal precision is simply the best TPS and DPS increase per talent point you could possibly spend for bear or cat, and far better than improved mangle.

    Bingo. Because we all can't be end content tanks, and this isn't Endgame TankSpot, we cater to everything from level 1 tanks who have just started the game to server firsts on hard modes. I choose to spend my efforts on several of my toons, and my Tankadin is miles ahead of my bear. I'm still a decent druid.
    If you say so.

    I'd recommend arguing what your actual toon has instead of stating that these things are good to do; you might give other druids the mistaken impression that you're actually talking about what they're doing.

    And honestly, this isn't end-game gear. This is what you can pick up from badges; this is essentially the minimum amount of gear you could have before going into ToC. Heck, if you're doing ToC in any capacity you're already past the 'expertise on everything' level of gear. It's hard to say considering you're hiding behind anonymity here, but my suspicion is that you're simply wrong and got called on it.

  19. #19
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    214
    @ Insahnity

    I think it might be worth it to check out FbN's cat rankings and simulation results in which they came to the conclusion that PP and stacking agil/ArP is much more beneficial than hit/exp. You personally may not like to miss attacks, but you are harming your own dps and not helping your raid. As far as I know Kalon (the fine gentleman you are discussing with) uses FbN's ratings for his cat gear lists. Rawr also has a decent sim model for cats. Anyways, it's here. I'm also not going to tell you to believe everything out of Kalon's mouth is gospel, but he is one of the best sources of information in the feral druid community as well.


    In terms of OT'ing and using 4/5 furor I agree with kalon. Whenever I need to tank an add, I make sure I take 6 seconds or so in bear form and ensure I have a full rage bar going into a single target situation. It is much more priceless than having 40 rage instead of 30. It means that I can spam the maul button early on in the fight. This is anecdotal evidence, I'm not entirely sure how I could demonstrate this in a parse.

  20. #20
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    Gaah. Had a long response written, but session timed out. Shorter version.
    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    Again, I'm calling you on your comment. You said that stamina has been nerfed to the stone ages. Well, in this case the 'stone ages' is 69k health, and 17% more than a similarly geared warrior. I'm sure the warriors would love to be similarly nerfed.
    Getting your bonuses cut in half is pretty serious in my books. Comparing against warriors is pointless, we always have scaled way above warriors, that hasn't changed at all. However they are avoidance tanks, and their avoidance scales with gear and it hasn't been changed. Our health is scales with our gear as well, but that has been changed. You are reading far too much into nerf comment.


    (side note: since when is mangle 20 rage?)
    Mangle (Bear) - Spell - World of Warcraft

    Now, I'll phrase it better since you apparently don't understand: where is it absolutely crucial that as the offtank, you build massive threat immediately on your target over the main tank? The only thing I could think of was Patchwerk. Is there something else?
    Patchwerk is a bad example to use. The hateful strikes come in pretty frequently, and if you don't have aggro, it's on a tank, no issue there. Put out white hits to build rage, and then start into things again. Your avoidance streak will end, hateful strike comes in, and all the meanwhile MT or other OT takes care of things in the event of RNG.

    Use examples which involve the following (a few to choose from)
    -MT is off on another target
    -You are assigned to light hitting adds, with burst DPS downing things with you.
    -Failure to grab secure aggro quickly either results in DPS munch or slows down DPS down, resulting in other issues (next wave of adds comes, missing timers, etc.)

    Because in every other situation, you'll have more than enough rage as you're actually being hit or dodging enough to where it won't matter.
    Over time yes, but due to RNG, there are sometimes the first few seconds are gonna be tricky. Hitting an avoidance streak on the initial pull and relying on white hits and the measly 3 rage on dodge can't compare to the initial burst potential of some DPS classes.

    Again, I'll ask - where do you need rage such that:
    1) you must do all of these things without any damage in
    2) you must be doing maximum threat while someone else is beating on it
    3) you must do all of this in 4 GCDs no matter what
    1) Avoidance streak
    2) DPS will be doing maximum damage to burn thing down
    3) DPS is capable of outstripping you withing 4 GCDs if things go wrong.

    Having the extra rage gives your more options beyond growl and demo roar to compensate (extra shots at hight TPS yellow hits, charge, etc.)

    For a cat, it isn't that big of a priority. Point of fact it's not a priority at all - as long as you have primal precision. If you were wondering why you don't do that great of DPS, that's one big reason right there - you're prioritizing the wrong things. The best stats to get for a cat are either agility or armor pen, depending on your trinkets and armor pen. Hit isn't necessary, but is nice. Expertise isn't necessary, but is nice.
    My problem isn't stats allocation, it is all pure agi to bring up my crit rate (which is the issue). ArPen is coming naturally from gear, as is hit and expertise cap from gear. If I drop below those caps , getting PP again will be the first adjustment over anything else, not re-gemming/re-enchanting.

    You're right - you don't NEED it for cat if you're soft-capped for expertise and capped on miss. Hopefully.

    And if you happen to have 14% expertise reduction for bear without it, you can get rid of it.
    Keep along that line of thought.

    However - unless both of these things are true, primal precision is simply the best TPS and DPS increase per talent point you could possibly spend for bear or cat, and far better than improved mangle.
    Agreed.

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