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Thread: Satorri's 3.1 Build Shop

  1. #81
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    I'm familiar, and I like the tools, I just never took to it, or took the time to really dig into the breakdowns that I'm already familiar with on WWS.

    And arguing a wobbly circle only sounds like fun for a short while, but no I agree. I'd much rather a discussion full of meaty examples and real number breakdowns. Those are the things that other people can read and not have to repeat for themselves. I kooky like that though. =)
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  2. #82
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    I find that numbers break down under the weight of reality in tanking situations, but again, just me

  3. #83
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    No, very true. The way things are with gear having such a diverse baseline before you gem or enchant, player skill and the nuances of the situation seem to noticeably outweigh small nuances of stats.

    1% more dodge or 600 more health is a small thing next to popping that trinket or CD at just the right time, or being quick and sharp on positioning yourself on the pull so you don't take swings from behind.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  4. #84
    I only wish that my gaming computer was up and running so that I could parse out the data to verify Edgewalker's sentiments concerning this spec.

    I think the biggest irk for me personally is Rune Tap, which I guess realistically is reflecting more upon your raid healing core more than it is the viability/use of the talent.

    In terms of the Death Strike centric vs Heart Strike/Death Coil spam I've played around with both variants and found that I personally enjoyed Heart Strike/Death Coil a bit more and ended up shifting my talents around a bit to better suit it and found my AoE capabilities to receive a slight boost as a result.

    An important note is that for TPS purposes, speccing and glyphing towards uber DC's doesn't really shine until you obtain the Sigil of the Vengeful Heart but is certainly functional without it.

  5. #85
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    o.O

    Rune Tap's value lies in two things: it is off the GCD, and I can fire it faster than healers can respond to my health drop. That is its value, and it has no reflection on my raid healers. I can reflect on them to tell you they are far better accomodating about sharing the work than many tanks I've seen discuss it. As a tank, your survival is a primary responsibility. I don't know a single healer who would tell you not to bother making their job easier.

    I'm also not sure what you mean by DS-centric vs HS/DC. A DS-centric rotation would have more space for dumping DC's, but even HS spam requires that you DS fairly frequently to get out as many HS's as you can. The nice things is you don't have to choose a stock rotation and stick with it. If you are able to you can match your moves to your needs, and DS does a phenomenal job of propping your health up.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  6. #86
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    I noticed something that may be worth adding to the glyph section. You don't mention the glyph of dark command. While in a lot of situations, espcially ones where you can/should be wearing a high threat (ie hit capped) set it wastes a glyph slot, in some situations it is golden.

    I've put this glyph in my blood spec for tanking hardmodes because on things like yogg, freya, mimiron, and algaon (hardmodes) missing a taunt is a disaster that just can't happen and often the split second decision to death-grip the mob (if taunt resisted) isn't fast enough to save the unlucky dps/ot/healer who retained or pulled aggro in the mess. In max EH gear i'm quite low on hit so this crutch for my taunt is very nice indeed.

  7. #87
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    Satorri, maybe add your intended 3.2 spec to the OP?
    The DK tank site: pwnwear.com.

  8. #88
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    I could do that, though I don't think much of anything is changing. =(

    And Prolet, I won't touch the glyph, too many other things I favor so much more. I have yet to have a taunt-fail cost me anything, it's nice to have back-ups, yes? Death Grip is there in the off chance I miss. Lemme see, in my survival gear (not quite hit capped) I have a 3% spell miss chance in my 25's. That means I have a 0.09% chance to miss with both my taunts.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  9. #89
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    Well, Vot3W will be much less meaningful (you'd take it anyhow)... Scent of B tooltip gets fixed... hmm you're right I think.
    The DK tank site: pwnwear.com.

  10. #90
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    Scent of Blood is still not my cup of tea, and though it may be nerfed, so long as I'm blood Vot3W wins for health, it's all we have left. /sob Remember when we had 6% stam from that and 3% stam from Shadow of Death?

    I wish they'd take more armor and not hurt my health, I was so proud of how high I bumped it. My goal though is to hit 50k fully raid buffed before 3.2 drops. I'm still a ways off. =(
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  11. #91
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    Excellent guide Sat, and thanks for all the effort you've put into it. I run with a very similar build myself, infact I recently shifted some points to try out Hysteria and Corpse Explosion. So far, CE seems to be fun, but overall I'm not feeling it. Hysteria however seems to be a nice little boost to my threat in Bloodlust/Heroism situations where the DPS ramps up momentarily. Basically, I'm just not sold on Corpse Explosion.

    I do wonder though with this and similar specs how do you value item stats? It seems that as Blood ArPen and Crit become a bit more valuable. Has this muddied the water at all for you when looking at upgrades or is it generally pretty cut and dried? I for instance just upgraded from Titansteel Destroyer (finally) to Aesir's Edge, I had been after Stormedge or Worldcarver to the exclusion of all else but now that I have the Edge I think, why would I bother with either axe? In retrospect I kinda feel like I should've been going after the sword from the beginning.

    Similarly, do you value EH even more now as Blood?

  12. #92
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    I love CE, but it's just not worth it for Ulduar. In Naxx? Major value on all the trash packs, in spider wing it bumps my dps/threat WAY up. Ulduar has too many elementals/mechanicals.

    Hysteria is funny, I don't use it on myself in raids, ever. I don't need the threat boost, and 20% buffed on 5k+ dps is a WAY bigger value to the raid than pushing my 2k up. But on my kitteh companion? Hotness.

    As Blood, health is my #1 survival value (not that I will trade too much to get it, but everywhere I can reasonably). Look at what the Blood tree does with health:

    1.) Rune Tap, Death Strike (Imp), Mark of Blood, all heal as a % of total health.

    2.) WotN if you take it, has a more and more reasonable threshold that you may hit without dying with more and more health. (At the same time I don't take it because I don't tend to dip that low often enough for it to really add up)

    3.) Vamp Blood. Zoinks. I love that I have popped a health trinket with full raid buffs and hit Vamp Blood to see my health push 60k. For 30 seconds, along with 15% buffed up heals, that's just comically easy to heal, no matter what you're up against.

    4.) Blood-gorged! The larger your health the easier it is to keep the 75%+ threshold for the 10% damage buff. For me that's a 12k wiggle room at the top of my health, so it's up quite a lot.

    Vot3W is just obvious of course, giving each point of stam a larger value (1 stam = 10.6 health instead of 10.0). I'll shed a tear or two next patch when I lose 2k health or so even after replacing all my gems with the new epics and JC gems.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    I could do that, though I don't think much of anything is changing. =(

    And Prolet, I won't touch the glyph, too many other things I favor so much more. I have yet to have a taunt-fail cost me anything, it's nice to have back-ups, yes? Death Grip is there in the off chance I miss. Lemme see, in my survival gear (not quite hit capped) I have a 3% spell miss chance in my 25's. That means I have a 0.09% chance to miss with both my taunts.
    Other than VB and RS there really isn't a huge survival/tps loss from dropping your third glyph (at least i've never noticed it on anything but say vezax). As I said, taunt fail isn't common, but in survival gear with low hit stats, it's worth the investment. Missing a taunt is just an inconvenience for most content, but there are enough very tight encounters out there that it is worth mentioning, even with an asterisk.

  14. #94
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    You read my mind Sat, I switched from my regular spec to yours (literally a 2 point difference) and I loved CE in a 25 Naxx run we did, but then in Uld I was sitting around going ... meh. As for Hysteria, yeah I've been using it generally on either a TG Warrior or Rogue in the guild: depending on who's there. But on high aggro fights like Hodir I use it on myself just to get all of the damage/threat I can while the DPS is going nuts. Overall, I think I like Hysteria pretty well.
    Last edited by Horaxe; 07-15-2009 at 09:46 AM.

  15. #95
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    For Prolet, my glyph choices are carefully thought out and measured. =)

    Vamp Blood = major survival value, 50% longer duration (~9% increase in uptime used on CD)

    Disease = this is less a matter of gaining large amounts of threat or survival, but the ease it allows with all 6 runes generally being available for single spends as blood runes, makes this a phenomenal tool for maximizing my effectiveness.

    DS = this was tricky. I had originally taken it when DS heals scaled with damage, and when that switched I figured RS would become better. I did out the math and it seemed to support it being the same value for me until I got the 2 pc t8 set bonus. Then I got the set bonus, ran the math with my new numbers, and low and behold, DS still won. Granted RS is a passive buff, I won't generally change the amount of RS's I get, but I use DS generously when it matters, so the damage buff to that wins out.

    Again, 0.09% chance to miss both taunts.

    This isn't a guide to spec'ing, this is just my personal development shared for people who may like different insight into the same set of talents/methodologies.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post

    Again, 0.09% chance to miss both taunts.
    In your current gearset?

  17. #97
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    Aye, with raid buffs. (yesterday Armory still had me in an old dps set, not sure why that happened haven't worn it in weeks)
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  18. #98
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    Well, Satorri et al, I have to thank you guys for this thread.

    My guild is a "casual" raiding guild, we do 10 man ulduar 2 nights a week, our players are of the hardcore, min/max mentality with a casual schedule. I'm really proud of them.

    In any event, we got started late on Ulduar and we've only been running it for about 3 weeks. We're on Hodir right now, but even up to Hodir I had been reaalllyy struggling with feeling totally squishy on my DK tank.

    I was running deep frost with HB, and prior to the Bone shield nerf I had been the Unholy AoE tank for our Naxx10 runs (Prot Warrior MT'ing). With 60% avoidance in Naxx, everything was cake. I switched to Frost for Ulduar, but the offtank takes a lot more damage in Uld than in Naxx, and I went from feeling OP to feeling Squishtastic.

    We've made some changes in our lineup, primarily switching our MT to a Paladin. Because of this, and my feelings of inadequacy, I've been looking for a spec that is easier on my healers. I found this thread yesterday and respecced Blood after reading it twice. Then I ran HHOL to get my legs. Last night we did EoE10 and VoA10, I was MT for both and I was bugging my healers with tells every 5 minutes, ("is this better? Is it easier to heal? Is it harder? Do you understand how this CD works?").

    The response from our main healer was immediate. "This is so much easier. I'm almost mad at you for putting me through the last 3 weeks of healing in that other spec."

    Once I got into the rhythm (especially on Emalon) I was able to keep my rune CD's rolling in such a way that I always had a DS available. This was amazing on Emalon, with his relatively slow swing timer I was able to hit a DS any time he hit me, so he'd knock me down to 76% and I'd immediately strike and heal myself for 3-5k health. I was conservative on HS useage because I was holding off on a few runes for DS, and I still lead the threat by a huge margin. We downed him in the middle of the third Tempest Overcharge, which is pretty fast for us. I found that folding a Rune Tap in on the blood CD immediately following Pestilence gave me a pretty good synergy on my 2 blood runes, and if I timed it all right it granted very little overhealing. I didn't use Vamp Blood or Mark of Blood, only used AMS and IBF for Nova's, and our healers were basically FoM at the end of the fight.

    TLDR: If you use your healing abilities right, you are significantly harder to kill and easier to keep up. If you aren't going to pay attention to the rhythm of fights, and you aren't going to use DS, don't bother with this spec, it's not for you.

    Anyway, thanks to the contributors on this thread, and especially to Santorri. I think our Ulduar runs are going to be a LOT smoother going forward.

    -Andaris
    Guild Leader, The Grey Order

  19. #99
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    Ok, I have to add one more thing...

    What I really love about this spec is that it's interactive. With Frost, you had a few CD's and you had to keep Blade Barrier up. Same with Unholy (although, with only 1 CD and IBF, unholy has been weak since 3.0.8).

    With Blood, I feel like tanking finally takes skill into account. This spec gives me the ability to interact with the fight in a way that I didn't before. My self heals are effective, my cooldowns are a little more reactive (and so, require better timing). I never really thought about a boss's swing timer before, or paid attention to my avoidance streaks. Now I'm engaged, I want to maximize my effectiveness as a tank and I have tools that make tanking more rewarding, more challenging, and ultimately more fun.

    Kudos to Blizzard for making a tank spec that works better for skilled players, and is actually engaging!

  20. #100
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    You just spelled out exactly why I love it! Truly active survival instead of just relying on CDs and passive survival abilities.

    I'm glad you found this helpful. It makes me feel that much more like it was worth posting.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

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