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Thread: Satorri's 3.1 Build Shop

  1. #41
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    How does blood fair in ulduar now that the heals have been nerfed? I was doing some old school soloing for money today and noticed that my heals werent even hittin 1k. Before they were hitting for like 3k, and i saw even some like 8k crits. It seems that they didnt just lower the heal, they nerfed it into the ground.

  2. #42
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    DS heals were "toned down" but they're still rolling just fine. It's still a major healing contribution.

    I'm not sure where your numbers came from, but I haven't seen a big change.
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  3. #43
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    hi. satorri did you tried frost at 3.1 or you just started playing blood and untill now you havent checked frost? if you did whats your opinion, even if you cant express a complete one? btw i disagree that we were not nerfed much, i think that it was a huge nerf. ty

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Varucard View Post
    How does blood fair in ulduar now that the heals have been nerfed? I was doing some old school soloing for money today and noticed that my heals werent even hittin 1k. Before they were hitting for like 3k, and i saw even some like 8k crits. It seems that they didnt just lower the heal, they nerfed it into the ground.
    definitely my DS heals went from 1.2k heal crit to about a 500 heal crit.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    I am one of the main tanks, I swap the role with one or two other tanks to play to our individual value for a given fight. My usual partner is a prot warrior that I share the duty with. He focuses on slightly different survival values, I have a pretty good margin more health, but he can put down some hard dmg reduction. We match the tank that suits the assignment. But we're both tanking 95% of the time barring the bosses where only one tank is required, then we go back and forth.

    The focus of the build is on using the value of blood: massive health pool, self-healing, and heavy physical dmg for threat. It holds up quite well as main tank, especially in the face of the heavy hitters.

    For itemization, I've been playing with some of my gear setups to see what I can do. My old setup was extremely robust. I focus on health buffing but I work to get the best net value I can manage. I was using a very carefully balanced set with rune of SS. The problem was that the set had next to no variability, I couldn't swap pieces to suit my needs without unbalancing values. At the moment I'm playing with Rune of SSG and using my small arsenal of trinkets to see what I can do for variability from fight to fight. It moves into an interesting spot for variability where I can swing between 31.5k and 34.5k health unbuffed and between 52% and 56% effective avoidance on a boss. I don't socket in extra strength, I get plenty on gear, parry from strength is a nice aggragate bonus but not much worth stacking for, and with Bladed Armor and my talents I'm already sitting around 4500 AP with raid buffs, prior to procs in my tank gear.

    Frost is an easy sell for being traditional survival value. Unholy has some very powerful dmg reduction but it also has a big hole when that is down which has left people shaken in using it. The important aspect of this spec, which is a unique and challenging skill set, harps on the self-heals. The more effectively you can use your Rune Tap and DS heals the more powerful this spec becomes. Vamp Blood is a remarkable survival skill, when I pop it I sit at 52k health and all incoming heals are increased by 35%. I hadn't really appreciated that until I used it. The less you use your heals the weaker the effective survival of Blood becomes.

    Generally it feels like I'm squishier than I used to be as Unholy with the unnerfed Bone Shield, but it takes a lot more to run me down, and my oh sh*t buttons seem pretty hard to overcome. Popping Vamp Blood with Rune Tap restores a 3rd of my health. Blessing of the Naaru is now instant cast, love that too (ticks for 1500 with raid buffs, 7500 health total).
    I agree that the spec is extraordinarily powerful when it comes to the cooldowns at your disposal. I loved Blood Tanking before the patch. I haven't tried it after the patch, but I know I will be eventually.

    Currently tho, I'm extremely impressed with how well unholy has been holding up despite the nerf to bone shield. I do fairly much the same setup with itemization. Especially with trinkets. However, I did have a whole lot more avoidance with SS than I do with SSG. However the health pool benefits from the setup I use with that rune make it much more worth the effort of remaining balanced.

    The only sad thing is my parry rating isn't amazing with SSG. With SS it was much MUCH more balanced in the avoidance category. With a bit higher numbers as well. However, I like the ability to have much more options available to me as far as gear goes. So I went back to SSG to open up a bit more flexibility.

    But the whole unholy thing :P

    I still love the spec. Despite the nerf to bone shield, it feels like the rest of the tree has been greatly more balanced than before. I pull of much more DPS than I did, and I generate exponentially higher threat than I was pre-patch.

    I even had to explain to a DK Tank friend of mine that it wasn't his fault he was losing threat to me after my target died, it was just the spec I use that's stealing it.

    Which is my main focus now in this new patch, to be the High End threat maker and focus a bit less on survivability than I have before simply due to the fact that our healers have scaled so well that I don't need to make it my main focus anymore. Which has allowed me ample oppurtunities for testing theories and different specs, gear, etc.

    Going back to avoidance tho :P I think perhaps to unlock a great deal more potential, I may switch back to SS as well as Repelling Charge/Valor Medal for higher end avoidance, more rune strikes, and a longer bone shield.

  6. #46
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    Manolaren, I haven't gotten the opportunity to tank much with Unholy or Frost as the patch is only a week old and I've been solidifying my hold on my new Blood build. That said I hope to.

    It's all well and good to disagree, but can you actually back that up with specifics? How do you feel like the nerf is massive? What has changed?
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  7. #47
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    If this is true to his statement, this is a massive buff for Blood tanks like me:

    Ghostcrawler:
    We have since made another hotfix to just change the way the healing works completely. It now heals 5% of the death knight's health per disease on the target, up to a max of 15%. This should allow Frost and Unholy to benefit from Death Strike healing while letting Blood benefit from extra Death Strike damage. The tooltip will not reflect this change until we can patch the client.
    That will puts my heal at 4600 with raid buffs, base!!

    Quick math, 2 per 20 secs, 9k per 20 sec = 460 hps average in my usual use. It will then get double buffed by Vamp Blood, to 7140 crit or not!!
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by manolaren View Post
    hi. satorri did you tried frost at 3.1 or you just started playing blood and untill now you havent checked frost? if you did whats your opinion, even if you cant express a complete one? btw i disagree that we were not nerfed much, i think that it was a huge nerf. ty
    I'm sorry sir, but I would have to disagree here. This patch however has brought up much debate as to whether or not DKs were nerfed. And with no numbers to support those who have been crying "nerf" I'd have to view the changes as more of a balancing act than an actual nerf.

    If anything my spec/playstyle has recieved a great deal of buffs from this patch let alone a much easier way to utilize the tools that are at my disposal.

    Granted some abilities were nerfed as you said. Lichborne was in fact a significant change, but 25% increased chance to be missed was... a bit... overkill.

    As I said to a few of those who have stopped playing their DKs due to the "nerfs"

    For all those DKs that are crying nerf, I want you to know that as a tank my DPS has increased almost 50% since this patch. My TPS has increased by almost 75%. So I'm not seeing these nerfs that everyone is talking about.

  9. #49
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    They nerfed our survivability and, imo, it was needed (I wouldnt done it like this though; I dont really like the 2min on CD but well).
    They may have upped our TPS a bit, at least for some spec (I didnt feel like it as frost but I am happy with the threat as blood); and again it was needed. But I really dont see how you could get a 50/75% increase. Personnally I am still behind our paladin tank for both AOE (it's fine) and single (not fine ^^); and I got a better gear.

  10. #50
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    Our other tank is a Warrior, and even with vigilance on me, (which I hate) I take threat from him in my first rotation. I'd have to post some parses from before and a parse now i haven't had a chance to get any new ones but I'll say it like this.

    As blood tanking pre-patch at most I was getting 1300-1400 DPS (pitiful I know) My single target TPS wasn't that big of a problem 5000 in most fights (quite a bit more on bosses especially Patchwerk)

    I now get 2500 DPS without breaking a sweat I top end at 3000-3100. 7500 TPS in most situations. And sorry for that (75% was a typo) it was a 25%-50% depending on the fight.

    I didn't focus on my ability to hold threat on AoE pulls this patch. 1 reason was Unholy never had a problem with it regardless of which talents they chose. This patch I've focused heavily on my ability to support the raid with increased DPS and TPS, and the ability to maintain a High amount of threat on single target.

    Now perhaps I should have taken some steps to improve survivability post patch due to CD changes, however I've not encountered any problems in which I found myself having to consider switching gems, chants, and trinkets (though I still switch trinkets quite frequently) to gain a higher amount of avoidance as well as survivability.

    My health pool is not an issue 33.1k before buffs which is significantly higher than our warrior's. However, due to the way he gemmed and such his effective avoidance is significantly higher than mine. But even with the stats that he is pushing and honestly he is just as geared as I am, he's been seeing a lot more switches to his DPS spec and letting me handle the tanking simply because of the higher amount of threat I produce, as well as damage.

    So in all fairness, yes some things were nerfed, others were improved. And I'm with you that I think they needed to be changed anyway. But as I said before (maybe not in this thread) I've seen no significant nor detrimental effects to the DK tank in this patch.

    The good ones remain good because they can adapt. The others will most likely go back to their old class or switch to DPS. That is the way that changes have always operated. But if you are here debating between pros and cons, I can assume that you are one that will be staying a tank. I might even assume (if you are as die hard as I) that your secondary spec is also a tanking spec

    I've not had a chance to test the waters as blood (from a TPS perspective) I assume it wasn't hurt. And I cannot offer any opinions on frost tanking as I have never done it. However from an unholy perspective and one who will more than likely make a secondary blood spec, our TPS was greatly increased with this patch. Feel free to armory me if you like. I could have played with the talents in this patch for an all out unholy or blood spec, but i have to say that I love the current one I am using and I most likely will not change it.

    On a note of avoidance that I mentioned before (i'm currently testing a theory [not live yet] but I'll be sure to give an update on the results)

  11. #51
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    RialÚv you talent spec looks quite interesting i going to give it a go and see how goes again i'm mainly frost and with this patch i have no seen any massive drop in are tanking abilities , but im still very undecided about my second spec and i think your one is worth a try .

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by RialÚv View Post
    I might even assume (if you are as die hard as I) that your secondary spec is also a tanking spec
    No, it's not. I would like to, for some situation; but as the tank "selector" of my guild I asked every tank to get a 2nd DPS (or heal) spec, so I cant do that (even if I could do some ok DPS as an unholy tank with dps stuff; but ok is not enough).

    About warrior and threat, I am bit confused: some have great one and I have hard time competiting with them (not especially in 3.1, I didnt have many occasion to test it since 3.1) and some have shitty tps.
    But paladin and druid, it's another story and before 3.1, both had a better tps than mine. The druid is close to me (and we got the same level of gear so that's fine), but the paladin can pull agro of me (not only me, everyone actually ^^) whenever he want and he got a lower level of gear. Again I didnt get many occasion to test it since 3.1, exept with the paladin that can still take the agro of me easily.


    Anyway, I wont quit the DK anytime soon, and I am ok with our survivability and I knew it was going to be tuned down; 15-20% more avoidance, more HP (exept than druid) and more, short reuse, cd: it couldnt last for ever ^^
    However, I would like that, like they do with survivability, they also put all the tanks classes on par regarding threat (single threat at least, I dont really care about AOE). It may not be as important as survivability, but it's close.


    Niniel

  13. #53
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    Well I'm not too sure what you are confused with there. Yeah some are better than others, that's always the case with any class. I'd really need a lot of proof for someone to proclaim that they are the best.

    But I can say this, pre patch the Warrior and I were an amazing team with tanking duties. Me having the higher health pool and more defensive cooldowns at my disposal, allowed for a good run in content that we had not before seen. And him having a significant amount of experience on me in the tanking industry made it so regardless of new content We could always expect him to do exactly what needed to be done.

    I've never seen a DPSer pull threat from him. I have pulled threat from him not so much pre-patch as compared to now But as someone noted my spec. I designed it to be based heavily upon a lot of spiked amounts of threat. Wherein crit chance is equally as important to the spec as AP or the standard Stam/Str. However as often as scourge strike or rune strike crits (35% for rune strike with raid buffs, 25-27% with SS) Aggro is easily switchable in a lot of cases. Wherein our warrior has always been noted for his ability to maintain a constant number, which by any standards is not a bad number at all. Like I said DPSers won't take threat from him.

    And naturally he doesn't mind greatly if I do being one that can hold aggro it would be much better that I take it from him than anyone else.

    Granted (and this is just an assumption since I have never played a warrior) His rage would be at a great loss from losing aggro. Meaning the only way to get his aggro back would be to taunt off of me and request that I stop attacking.

    The great thing about DK's is we do not need to do that if we play the numbers correctly. A few well placed Scourge Strikes and a lucky crit is just about the only tools we need for taking aggro back. And of course Dark Command and/or Death Grip if we need it back in a hurry.

    As far as druids and pallies go, I've not had the privelage of tanking alongside too many druids. A few times that I can count, but more often than not they are DPS until it comes time that they are needed for their much higher HP.

    I've tanked 25 mans with a Pally until he recently switched to holy, and I don't recall having aggro issues with him.

    Each tank is highly capable of doing the job that is assigned to them, and doing it well. I'd probably be the last one to say that any class is better than the other at tanking when each have their strong points and particular nuances that the others may not possess. But being that each have the same common goals for their services I'd simply be willing to assume that it's all a matter of personal taste.

    Really with this patch, I decided during my tests on the PTR realms that Threat was going to be my priority moreso than Survivability. Not because survivability isn't important to me. But that I have 100% faith in those that I raid with, and switching over to a more offensive style of tanking was something that I'm sure the healers may have noticed but none have complained that I'm too hard to keep alive. I've heard DKs complaining about those claims in the past, but i'd have to say that its more or less some errors made in either the tanking or the healing.

    If both work in unison none should be complaining, as they are doing exactly what it is they are supposed to be doing.

    RialÚv you talent spec looks quite interesting i going to give it a go and see how goes again i'm mainly frost and with this patch i have no seen any massive drop in are tanking abilities , but im still very undecided about my second spec and i think your one is worth a try .
    On that note I have to say that it is very much a timing spec more over than muscle memory. Glyph of Disease is the key to the kingdom with it, and without it, I'd be unable to perform half as well as I do. With the slight bug happening with Blood Plague (if anyone has noticed) it will take a little practice to get the pestilence timings right. But after that depending on the gear and enchantments it can really shine.

  14. #54
    Giving blood a try tonight. Quick question though. Multiple target and single target rotations please?

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by RialÚv View Post

    I now get 2500 DPS without breaking a sweat I top end at 3000-3100. 7500 TPS in most situations. And sorry for that (75% was a typo) it was a 25%-50% depending on the fight.
    What is your standard rune power ability? DC or UB?

  16. #56
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    Somebody asked about current frost status. I was Unholly / Frost before 3.1 and now I tried Blood (but not much) and Frost again. You can check my build on armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

    I think this is pretty standard Frost build. I have naxx10 / naxx25 gear, but for Ulduar I use a lot of stamina stuff (31,8k hp unbuffed) and Stoneskin Rune. Yeah, I dropped def down to 547 cause I wanted more stamina gems / trinkets. My avoidance is 56% (with Horn of Winter), based on macro from this forums.

    I think I'm doing ok, raid buffed in 25-man content I have over 40k hp, so healers' life is easier I hope.

    I think that blood / frost are safer for progression in Ulduar. Problem with Unholly I can see is that Bone Shield need good avoidance to keep up long enough. And avoidance tanks are not good for progression (if there's small probability that you'll get 5 big hits in a row, it will happen sooner or later. And knowing Murphy's Laws it will happen when boss will be at 1%). If you don't gem / gear for avoidance, Bone Shield will not last long enough and healers can get surprised when it wears off.

    But I'll go back to Unholly when my gear will allow it

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanthus View Post
    What is your standard rune power ability? DC or UB?
    The nice thing about the spec I'm working with right now is it's constant building of Runic Power, making it very easy to keep an Unholy Blight up during the fight. Which I try to keep up at all times regardless of the number of mobs I'm tanking. While it's up I use DC.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by RialÚv View Post
    The nice thing about the spec I'm working with right now is it's constant building of Runic Power, making it very easy to keep an Unholy Blight up during the fight. Which I try to keep up at all times regardless of the number of mobs I'm tanking. While it's up I use DC.
    RialÚv what rotation do you use i was messing with this spec last night mainly dpsing in a few heroics with my guild while are other MT tanked and i was every so often waiting on rune cooldowns apart from that i enjoyed the spec. it have good AOE and nice damage with also a good amount of health

  19. #59
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    The rotation changes sometimes depending on how much uptime is left on the 3 diseases on your target. Since blood plague has a tendancy to diminish before the other 2 it's somewhat important to get that pestilence in before 3 secs left on your diseases.

    I've played with a few different timing rotations so far the most efficient one for the extra Scourge Strikes is

    IT, PS, BS, Pest
    SS, SS, SS

    SS, SS, Pest, BS
    SS, SS, SS

    SS, SS, Pest, BS

    That so far has been working out well for me. Granted it is a little complicated working in the timing on RP dumps but it seems to work pretty well right before the blood runes come off cooldown. That generally gives you enough time to either get in an UB, or a DC.

  20. #60
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    So, a quick update, my team has been struggling with scheduling for some of our top players in 25s, so our first week of work was hardly stellar, but I got to see some quality aoe tanking action, and I have to say, it's a little odd. I tanked a couple heroics, and the raid buffs make my aoe threat FAR more potent, which I'm figuring is the spell buffing on BB (without which I have a rocking 5% crit chance, and I'm missing 3% to hit, 8% to crit, and 13% more dmg at least). The group I was with didn't buff that whatsoever, though I washout the other buffs since they would help my biggest threat tests (my dps monster of an arms warrior friend). In 25s though I have powerful enough aoe to over-take my warrior friends, though I'm much closer to our pallies now (as Unholy it was no contest after the first 3 GCDs).

    As for survival and the various threat moves etc. My single target threat feels lower than it was pre-3.1 as Unholy, though that may be faulty since I tend to measure it relative to my team and they've been getting better. I do feel like the loss of avoidance has hurt my RS threat a bit, but all of that considered, I still don't lose threat, I just don't have an overwhelming margin. HS and DS are quality threat spam, and heals do not hurt in the least either. The survival value of the newly buffed DS with Rune Tap (which admittedly I've only been using when my health visibly dips) is bolstering my health a great deal and is actually very advanticious. We discuss a lot of these concepts in a void, with an idea like every fight is a tank and spank where no one is moving, not us or the healers, and we're just getting beaten down and healed up. In Ulduar there are so many fight mechanics that have me constantly moving in every fight, including trash. With me AND the healers on the move all the time, the ability to instant cast heal myself for big chunks of health is a serious value, and has eased the healing noticeably. With my abilities and setup I can also survive Steelbreaker's fusion punch with the rune buff in Uld10 (big enough health pool and without AMS I can pop heals up to buy the healers time to dispel the debuff and burst me back up), but I wouldn't recommend it, since it is scary as hell.

    With a couple weeks to adapt now the healers have gotten used to seeing heals coming from me and it hasn't increased their overhealing noticeably at all, while I am significantly contributing to my own heals and easing their burden a bit while we're learning these fights. Every fight has big messy raid damage of some sort that is usually much worse when you're learning it, and this is a distinct benefit to the raid.

    On a side and very happy note, I had forgotten this from before, and I've confirmed it has not been changed: Vamp Blood and Guardian Spirit stack. I Rune Tapped myself for 19k the other night! That is a wonderful thing to see.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

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