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Thread: Satorri's 3.1 Build Shop

  1. #21
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    Oh and Jaydee. You hit on one of the nuances of the Blood tank. The largest survival value will require that the tank be given some space to heal themselves, though truth be told it's not quite as much as you may think. Your healers don't need to let your health lag, much of the gains can be used as needed and fit in the gaps. What DOES need to happen is that healers need to know you are a source of heals and get used to that. This comes into play where healing assignments are more regimented and you have only one healer assigned to you. They're expecting to be the only incoming heals normally so they will arrange casts to reflect that. You adding heals without them expecting it can have the effect of ninja heals driving them into overhealing (I tend to be very sharp on it, once I get the rhythm of boss swings).

    If I don't need to heal because I'm not taking enough dmg to test my healers, then it's not a big deal and I don't heal myself. But we (I used to be a full time raid healer, and the team is filled with close friends) actually use this to our advantage: they generally respect that I need less healing attention than other tanks would in the same position because I can add heals myself and I can buff incoming heals from my assigned healers. It helps that we simply don't overload me with heals and put them somewhere else.

    I figure you can handle this unique aspect in one of 3 ways, and we've seen them all illustrated:
    1.) Healing yourself is pointless, our healers spam overhealing on me anyway, so I just won't use that mechanic, but I like the way blood works otherwise so I'm still going to spec into it and just avoid the ability to heal myself.
    2.) I'll take the skills because they may come in useful, but generally I'm not expecting to use them. If I think to I will, otherwise no biggee.
    3.) I have the ability to contribute to my health through self-heals, we should factor that into healing assignments and healers should be aware that they won't have to patch every drop.
    Take your pick, personally I enjoy the challenge and the raid buff of not requiring as many healers. In preparing for Ulduar I've worked a great deal on heal assignments, gauging expected dmg in, and considering the strengths of my tank team and my heal team. It works well for me, maybe it doesn't for you.

    On a broader scale I think people have lost sight of the higher levels of raiding. Some people have never seen them, and others have forgotten what it's like for not having seen them for a while.

    Naxx is a fine challenge, and it takes time to learn and time to clear if you don't know the fights and you are starting off in blues (you CAN start it in blues, which should say something). Once you have the beginnings of epic gear, Naxx becomes easier and no one is really straining. Powerful heals with powerful tanks makes some of the hardest hitting encounters seem pretty measily, and for the best groups the only challenge is juggling lots of things at once (Sarth 3D) and taking massive bolts of single shot magic dmg (Sarth 3D breath), but none of that is particularly a matter of testing healer skill or tank balance, it's often just a matter of drowning the Sarth tank in heals and having a tank or two who can jump all over adds and build threat well.

    Ulduar is promising to be 2 (maybe smaller than some would like) steps in the direction of where raiding is a test of skill even more so. For a tank, the highest level of raiding requires that you walk the fine line between survival and threat, and generally you can't do it all optimally with a single set of gear. You arrange options so you can swing the dial between threat heavy and gear heavy, and now we'll even be able to do that with a pair of tanking specs if you're so inclined. In the best and hardest conditions you'll be tested on threat while being tested on durability and choices really matter.

    The highest level of healing requires a balance of its own: healing intensity against healing longevity. You need to be able to put out the volume/size heals required, but you need to be able to do it as long as you need to do it. Right now healers are hard pressed to test their mana unless they're under-manning it on heals (we've had some fun 1.5-2 healing 10 mans and 4 healing 25s, that will put your healers to the test). This is partly because of extraordinary potential on regen for smartly geared Priests/Druids, and because Pally efficiency combined with (even penalized) Divine Plea is so extraordinary that they can spam heals overhealing 80% and not run out of mana. This is why Blizz is trying to test that, they want to dial it back to where that balance matters. Whether or not Ulduar does that combining some reduced/modified regen mechanics with heavier raid dmg, that is the direction they're going in and I think it is faulty to work on the assumption that you will always be drowning in heals. Adding heals to the mix is never a bad thing unless you fail to use the tools you bring to the table, and these tools are solely in the hand of the tank. I savor the challenge.

    That said, Ulduar also has more intense encounter mechanics that will stress your team. DPS will need to put dmg in the right place at the right time, tanks will need to be assigned carefully as they won't be able to tank everything, and heals will need to be deliberate and careful with how much they heal and where, no more laughable spamming without using noticeable amounts of mana. I'm ready for the raid challenge to be dialed up so the jaded and foolish people who don't know what hard raiding is can be humbled a bit, and rejoin the not-so-arrogant portion of the community.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  2. #22
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    Oh, and sorry Esch, I forgot to answer your question on rotation.

    The goal is to use a rotation largely on single rune costs. You use DS on any FU pairs that aren't converted, and otherwise spam HS like your life depends on it (or BB in certain situations, or pestilence to re-up diseases). This also leaves plenty of room for Rune Tap and Mark of Blood casts. Ideally you'd apply IT/PS once at the start of the fight and not have to use them again, RS used as sharply as possible (I even bound it to BB for when I was doing aoe pops). DCs are ok to dump one in a gap, only if your RP gets close to 100, I use glyph of DS so letting my pool stay high buffs that dmg and healing. With the heavy use of single runes this rolls a lot of RP in actually.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  3. #23
    what do you think your frost and unholy build would be in 3.1?

  4. #24
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    Frost and Unholy tanking builds? I could take some stabs in the dark, but a solid spec would take some time and effort to refine. =D
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  5. #25
    yea for tanking. haha alright

  6. #26
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    Sooooo, obviously I didn't get on until late and had to do a lot of fussing with my UI. I also took the time to reconfigure my bars, which had been needed for a while. But, without doctoring up my gear a little, which I'm planning, I plopped down my new spec, threw in my new glyphs, and headed off to Ulduar10 with a group of good friends to test the waters (Uld25 will be tonight with the large group).

    First impressions, from a non-spec-related perspective Flame Leviathan is SO much fun, but it isn't a test of your gear, it is a test of coordination with non-class skill sets. It was pissing me off though that my bike's horn attack didn't damage anything (/cry). Once we got passed that, which wasn't hard at all, since I was well-prepared and my friends catch on quickly, I discovered something else I had forgotten: the shear joy of learning new trash and fights (no sarcasm I really love figuring this stuff out). Ignis' trash f'n hurts! I love the anti-PoM hot potato ember from the giants, interesting mechanic. Even the trash hammers stuff hard, and I'm rapidly seeing the value of CC (inorite?!)! Ignis was a beast too, though sadly all we had time for. We had our method pretty well ironed out.

    Now for the point of my post. For all the doubters or folks who got to thinking that they were invincible, go head on into Ulduar and tell me you won't have space to heal yourself. I was actually DS'ing far more than just for conversion, and popping Rune Tap on CD. My overhealing was under 20%...

    Ignis, on 10, with 2-3 adds up while we were figuring out, was hitting the MT for over 20k per swing! I was on add duty, which after some figure out wasn't quite as painful as when I started, but yeesh. I was expecting 10-man to be a bit softer, but even I had forgotten how severe a good hard raid can be. /applaud Blizz

    Now hopefully in a week or two I'll have settled out my muscle memory twitches and what not with the new spec and I'll be able to pay closer attention to more specific values and my heals while jumping through hoops for the fun new fights (so, Hot Pocket is surprisingly easy to get as a tank).
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  7. #27
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    I am actually tempted to skip morbidity and CE and put those points into the blood tree. And use my dual spec for AoE situations if there are any real ones. Granted we only got to Ignis ourselves last night but it seems they delivered on their promise of not being able AoE down the trash. In fact, I am looking at spell deflection or WotN as a place to put those 4 extra points.

    But assume I stay in the threat column, I was curious as to the value of MoM v. say RD v. finishing off SD. Has your testing involved anything along that line?

  8. #28
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    Is imp blood presence that worth the talents? Or are the talents better spent in sudden doom?

    I mean to me 1pt in sudden doom seems kinda like a waste, since we don't swing that fast anyway. It just seems that making sudden doom worth something would be better than getting small trickle heals.

  9. #29
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    Satorri who is MT in your guild on Ignis i.e warrior druid or DK ? . also i have long being a fan of Frost Tank specs all through Naxx and so on and going into Uldar im Unsure what to spec i'm tempted by blood but i will be mainly 10 man content as are guild is not big enough for 25 man so we never really did much bar puging it .

    So for this DO you think Blood would be more helpful to a raid 10man then frost due to it self healing and massive health pool vs Frost mirgration in Uldar ?

  10. #30
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    Satorri, nice write-up about blood tanking. As I have no experience in blood, it was very helpful. I understand using DS to change FU runes into dead runes and then spam Heart Strikes or BB. But without this thread I wouldn't think of it myself

    One thing though... we went to Uld yesterday in two groups. In my group me and Warrior was tanking and we both had dual specs. I took survival spec (copied your blood spec from this thread) and my old frost spec which I know how to play:

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    I noticed that on two Colosus trash mobs just after Leviatan, I had problems with survival as blood spec, so I switched to my old frost build and did fine. Probably I'm not used to blood spec and using self-healing cooldowns. But I'm happy that dual spec allow us to experiment with other builds and I'll keep trying your blood spec (but probably in some HC runs first to get used to new abilities )

  11. #31
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    Burberri, try to use full names for many talents, as there are ones that share common acronyms, ha ha. Fortunately, I assume you're asking MoM vs Sudden Doom vs Ravenous Dead? Might of Mograine is directly proportional to the amount of crit you get as a tank which as a blood tank varies per move. With raid buffs and a fury warrior/kitteh I have almost a 30% crit rate on HS, 20-24% on DS, and at best the mid-teens on the rest. Seeing as how HS is so much dmg with my design MoM is a good buff, and I've been considering a shift, though I'll collect a lot more dmg before I do. Sudden Doom is almost exactly 1% increased dmg per point, though that too gets buffed up with spell crit chance and spell dmg buffs from a raid if you have them. Ravenous Dead I always fancied for getting the Str buff and resulting parry increase with the extra AP. What I did figure out though is that each point is worth somewhere around 30 AP and a nearly negligible amount of parry, which is why I let it fall off. Normally, I'd advise Sudden Doom for the passive threat gain from your spammed HS, and eschew MoM as relying on crit as a tank. That said with my talent buffed crit rate being so distinct, I'm actually leaning towards moving SD points to that instead, my HS's already crit for 4k.

    Varucard, I actually, at the last second, swapped Imp Blood Pres back into Sudden Doom. The trickle of heals is nice for easing the burn a bit, but I decided to try sticking with threat buffing and leaving the little health buffer out. There is no difference with how many points you put in Sudden Doom, percent-wise each point is the same value, and it procs off HS, which I'm using constantly (about average of 3-4 times per rune set, 10 sec interval). The proc is what's leaving me feeling inclined to pick up MoM at the moment. The burst aspect is nice, but not being able to control the burst makes it less useful since for a tank, it's not just about how much, it's often about how much you can apply when.

    Madoxx. We were running with a small non-standard 10 man group, but I was with my long-time tanking partner, a prot warrior. Our first tact was to have him tanking Ignis and have me on adds, since I can AMS while positioning in the Scorch and Chains of Ice an add at a time inside. After seeing him (glitchily) hitting my partner for 20k+ swings, I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to swap roles. My massive health pool means it will take a lot longer to get one-shot (and my avoidance is still rockin' practical value about 55-60% to cut that down), and if the adds are stunnable he has some nice tools to keep multiples in place (we were also using an elemental shaman with a rooting earthbind to help). Everything I hear though is that Ignis was glitched and not dropping dmg buffs properly, and that even after the hotfix he's still hitting quite hard, enough to make people feel like he's poorly balanced next to Razorscale and XT002 (he needs a good nickname, how about Decon).

    Coe, I think you hit dead on one of the key things about making a shift in spec. The spec you've been playing for months will be a very easy one to play. You're used to the tools and you have less to actively keep thinking about while playing it, you have developed your little tricks and timings to squeeze all your moves in, and it's second nature. When you move to a new spec, it's easy to feel out of place and out of sorts. I've been training it a bit on the PTR and I still feel that way after being predominantly Unholy for the last several months for tanking. Blood tanking can be quite solid, but I guarantee it is a unique skill set. To get the best apparent mitigation you need to use the self heals very well, and that takes a special sort of timing and attention that is only developed from working at it for a good while. If you focus on it, run a bunch of heroics (this may not give you enough dmg at your gear level), try running a 10m Naxx with only 2 healers to give yourself more of a test and easier windows to hit, and you can start finding the rhythm.

    For my own addendum/considerations:
    Sudden Doom vs Might of Mograine
    3/3 Sudden Doom is a 15% chance on HS to proc a DC on the main target for free, no CD/GCD. DCs will vary depending on spell crit and spell dmg buffs. If I have the best crit buffs it will be about 13% crit chance, and with the best dmg buffs it'll do around 2k dmg. Typically, while cruising, I'll hit HS about 7 times per 20 sec, or 21 times per minute. 21 times will be roughly 3 procs per minute, crit adjusted average dmg will be ~2260, which works out to 113 dps (234 tps).

    MoM buffs crit dmg from HS, DS, and BB. We'll leave out BB for now. I'll hit on average 7 HS and 2 DS per 20 sec, or 21 and 6 per minute. With raid buffs we'll put HS at about a 30% crit chance and DS at about 27%. Normal crit adjusted average for HS dmg is 2600 and DS is 1900 (~3000 heal). 3/3 in MoM is +45% crit bonus dmg (x2.45). The new crit adjusted averages will be 2870 for HS and 2087 for DS (~3340 heal). The non-MoM would be roughly 910 dps (1887 tps) from HS, and 190 dps from DS (394 tps from dmg, 0 tps at 100% overheal, 156 tps at 50% overheal, and 311 tps at full healing value). The MoM adjusted values would be 1005 dps (2083 dtps) from HS, and 209 dps (433 dtps, 0/173/346 htps).

    So for a 3 pt investment, Sudden Doom at best would be worth a 234 tps boost, while MoM would be worth +235 dtps and 0-35 htps increase. Identical within the reasonable variability from the numbers I used from my napkin math. Given that, I'd probably bank on the regularity of crit dmg and the potential increase in DS healing from MoM over Sudden Doom for the sake of tanking.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  12. #32
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    Have you tried this build live yet? Despite how much my server has been down i'm curious to see the blood build's potential in post 3.1

    I recently specced to blood tanking (pre-patch) and after some check ins on the PTR realm, as well as some of my own napkin math at work, I decided on a Pure threat based Unholy Spec with prominence in Blood Talents. Up to Veteran of the Third War. I was making certain that I took all the STR % talents that were recently made much more accessible with the changes in talents and spell mechanics.

    A lot of the focus I've put into the spec is how you are viewing it, with higher crit percentages in the spammable abilities.

    However, I did have a full blood build that I decided would be my back burner secondary tanking spec. I did choose to take Imp Blood Presence for that build for a passive trickle heal. But I was thinking that it could be points better spent in other talents. Perhaps MoM as you suggested. But with the decrease in avoidance and a passive damage mitigation, I'm thinking that that small trickle heal may help with the mechanics of blood tanking. Which though it lacks mitigation, It makes up for in survivability.

    Blood has been an easy way to create an aggro gap on single targets, and now with the changes in the unholy tree with UB and CE being a good choice for AoE burning (and perhaps the extra RP to use now that Rune Strike won't happen quite as much,) AoE threat may not be a problem. However the internal mechanics of blood tanking or DK tanking in general are pretty reliant on Avoidance. And losing a fair amount from blade barrier, you may see that a little more trickle heal will be better spent than an extra amount of spike threat. (just my 2 copper)

  13. #33
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    I have been putting it through the paces, as much as you can hope with the patch being live for only a day and change, and with instance servers failing constantly.

    The big thing I noticed in my Ulduar10 run was that my massive health cushion was offering some happiness to the healers as we faced unpredictable damage learning new trash.

    Hopefully this weekend the waters will settle a bit and I'll be able to test it more. Next week I should be able to get a good long inning in Uld25 and really start putting it through the paces.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  14. #34
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    And this spec you've made is for exactly what focus? Just out of curiosity.

    It would seem to me to excel in an off tank's perspective and perhaps large trash burning cases. I would assume by the talents you've focused on that that is your main focus.

    Is that correct? If so, I'd say just by the numbers I can crunch that it would be a pretty high ranking spec for that sort of thing providing that the gearing is correct.

    How have you decided to Itemize it? A higher focus in Strength for AP/Avoidance Scaling? Or more so with effective health and crit chance?

    (assuming

  15. #35
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    And this spec you've made is for exactly what focus? Just out of curiosity.

    It would seem to me to excel in an off tank's perspective and perhaps large trash burning cases. I would assume by the talents you've focused on that that is your main focus.

    Is that correct? If so, I'd say just by the numbers I can crunch that it would be a pretty high ranking spec for that sort of thing providing that the gearing is correct.

    How have you decided to Itemize it? A higher focus in Strength for AP/Avoidance Scaling? Or more so with effective health and crit chance?

    (assuming you've hit the hit and exp caps)

    EDIT: Browser error, sorry for the double post.

  16. #36
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    I am one of the main tanks, I swap the role with one or two other tanks to play to our individual value for a given fight. My usual partner is a prot warrior that I share the duty with. He focuses on slightly different survival values, I have a pretty good margin more health, but he can put down some hard dmg reduction. We match the tank that suits the assignment. But we're both tanking 95% of the time barring the bosses where only one tank is required, then we go back and forth.

    The focus of the build is on using the value of blood: massive health pool, self-healing, and heavy physical dmg for threat. It holds up quite well as main tank, especially in the face of the heavy hitters.

    For itemization, I've been playing with some of my gear setups to see what I can do. My old setup was extremely robust. I focus on health buffing but I work to get the best net value I can manage. I was using a very carefully balanced set with rune of SS. The problem was that the set had next to no variability, I couldn't swap pieces to suit my needs without unbalancing values. At the moment I'm playing with Rune of SSG and using my small arsenal of trinkets to see what I can do for variability from fight to fight. It moves into an interesting spot for variability where I can swing between 31.5k and 34.5k health unbuffed and between 52% and 56% effective avoidance on a boss. I don't socket in extra strength, I get plenty on gear, parry from strength is a nice aggragate bonus but not much worth stacking for, and with Bladed Armor and my talents I'm already sitting around 4500 AP with raid buffs, prior to procs in my tank gear.

    Frost is an easy sell for being traditional survival value. Unholy has some very powerful dmg reduction but it also has a big hole when that is down which has left people shaken in using it. The important aspect of this spec, which is a unique and challenging skill set, harps on the self-heals. The more effectively you can use your Rune Tap and DS heals the more powerful this spec becomes. Vamp Blood is a remarkable survival skill, when I pop it I sit at 52k health and all incoming heals are increased by 35%. I hadn't really appreciated that until I used it. The less you use your heals the weaker the effective survival of Blood becomes.

    Generally it feels like I'm squishier than I used to be as Unholy with the unnerfed Bone Shield, but it takes a lot more to run me down, and my oh sh*t buttons seem pretty hard to overcome. Popping Vamp Blood with Rune Tap restores a 3rd of my health. Blessing of the Naaru is now instant cast, love that too (ticks for 1500 with raid buffs, 7500 health total).
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    ...Unholy has some very powerful dmg reduction but it also has a big hole when that is down which has left people shaken in using it. ...
    I guess i'll be the one disagreeing with you on this
    Not only it was my perception but it was also corroborated by our healers.

    From a TPS PoV i'd say the BB change was properly compensated with(primarily) the buff to SS as its now hitting like a truck!

    One of the things im going to try is changing my Glyph of SS for the Glyph of Disease(whenever i can get my hands on it).
    This will effectively remove the relying worry of the SS glyph to proc so insted of BS, BS on the 2nd pass it'll end up being Pest, BS freeing up 1F1U!

    At least thats what im expecting

  18. #38
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    So after 3 days of "frost, the return" (frost was my first favorite tree), I already think about going back to my most recent (since 3.0.8 I think) favorite build: blood.
    I still dont think frost worse it; yes it's a bit better in survivability (2% less damage and 3% more miss mostly) but boss are still "a few but BIG hits" type, as far as I can see so I think it's more in favor of blood (less mitigation but bigger HP pool and self heal). And I am still disapointed by UA: 1500 less damage when boss hit for 20k isnt much.


    Sorry, maybe not the good place to post it, but I wanted to share it ^^

    The only difference between my blood spec and yours is that I take MoM instead of improved blood presence and Corpse Explosion; reasons:

    - Improved blood presence: as I said, for the 3 boss I saw in ulduar, it still "big hitters" type; so I dont think that small heal really matter.
    - Corpse explosion: well you need a corpse and when there is one, generally the rest of the mobs are near death too, in aoe situation.

    I may replace MOM by WOTN, even with the nerf though. With the kind of hits that boss do (20K+), even if it's only every 15sec it could save my ass quite a few time.

  19. #39
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    Emi, it's nothing to disagree with. Bone Shield is the one and only physical mitigation offered by Unholy, there are no other survival buffs not shared by the other trees (using tier 1 talents). The doubled CD length means Bone Shield, at best, can be up half the time it used to be.

    Now, if you want to tell me that with the passive dmg reduction from Frost Pres and Blade Barrier makes it so when the shield is down you don't take unbearable dmg, that's good to know and that's the sort of thing people need to hear to not feel shy about going back to Unholy. But, that is one of the big reasons people have lost faith in Unholy, deserved or not.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    ...Now, if you want to tell me that with the passive dmg reduction from Frost Pres and Blade Barrier makes it so when the shield is down you don't take unbearable dmg, that's good to know and that's the sort of thing people need to hear to not feel shy about going back to Unholy. But, that is one of the big reasons people have lost faith in Unholy, deserved or not.
    Yup, thats exactly it. Actually, last night, i ended up tanking XT because i was not only taking less damage from him (17-24k hits) than our prot warrior (22-28k) but our healers stated, and i quote, that i was "definitely easier to heal".

    As for the Glyph of Disease, i tried it for a while before the raid but just didnt feel right.

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