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Thread: Satorri's 3.1 Build Shop

  1. #1
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    Satorri's 3.1 Build Shop

    (Long live my favorite Bear, Sheal!)

    So, I wanted to post up because I've been playing around with this a lot. Really this is just a bookmarking of my current thinking, but on the chance other people would find it interesting, or I could encourage others to offer up their upcoming designs with the same sort of explication, I wanted to make it public.

    Osyras Blood Tanking Spec v10 *updated for current spec, further explanation in following posts*

    Here is my most recent spec, it's very close to my previous iterations but I've made a few refining swaps. For those who didn't follow the thread hopping development, my original interest was a meat shield Blood-based spec (since we're losing avoidance and gaining mitigation I think it will be rather easier than it was previously), but with boosted aoe possibilities from Unholy. Originally I went down to UB getting Necrosis on the way which is not at all points wasted. I did discover though that UB is unfortunately pretty weak without the supporting effects in deeper Unholy (though having someone else applying the +13% spell dmg buff would help). Necrosis is nice, though it precludes B-G which I'm enjoying a bit more now.

    The current state of the spec is in a bit of a balance. I've opted not to take some of the more mitigation-oriented survival tools in Spell Deflection and WotN. Spell Deflection I may still take, especially looking at some of the major spell dmg functions in Ulduar, the real test will be how many of those are avoidable and what sort of damage reduction I can really pull out of that talent. Will of the Necropolis, after a bit of math, has gone in my trash bin. It's decent enough as a clutch save, but it lost a lot of its continual mitigation value when it got a 15 sec CD. I maintain that I want to see it changed to a strict Ardent Defender sort of value, 15% dmg reduction when you are at or below 35% health, straight and simple. Imagine the worst case scenario, you are taking 25k hits (which won't actually take me below the 35% threshold from full with raid buffs) that are triggering the reduction, and you're taking them regularly enough that you get the proc, it will represent 15k dmg saved per minute, which is great, for sure. However, with spot on healers (which they'll need to be if you're taking that much damage) anything less will not really be triggering the effect. Instead the survival buffs from talents in this spec are built around the self-healing which actually has almost scary potential (on non-instance tests I could push upwards of 400 hps average for fights with no buffs but my own HoW and not using Mark of Blood which is the Bazooka in the arsenal).

    So, some of the key features and synergistic constructions:
    Basic Tools:
    • I never leave out Anticipation, Toughness, and Blade Barrier (it may not be 10% parry, but 5% mitigation is serious value)
    • Imp IT is no longer much to look at for threat buffing IT, especially as Blood, but dropping it would be a negotiation with my tanking team since no one can apply the 20% de-haste as effectively or maintain it as easily.
    • Bladed Armor is non-negotiable for my builds. 800 AP for 5 talent pts? Why would I not take that?!
    Blood-centicity:
    The style of my build is build around single rune spam.
    • Glyph of Disease with Epidemic allows me to set diseases on one target at the beginning of the fight then maintain them with a single Pestilence once every 18-20 secs, in this style that's not at all an issue since I don't rely on FU pairs other than to switch them to death runes with DS. Imp IT makes FF a quality asset to all the tanks/heals, and both diseases tick reasonably while buffing HS/BB spam delightfully.
    • In tests with no buffs but HoW, DS hits for about 1400-1500 depending on buffs up and RP levels (glyphed) and heals for about half again as much (2.2-2.4k non-crit) and is what I use to convert FU pairs. I usually keep both FU pairs as death runes since I don't re-apply diseases with IT/PS. I'd love to see DS scale with total health but that could be a bit too much, I like the value as it is. It's better threat than Oblit provided I get the full heal, but it's not a waste either and not digging for Annihilation has given me more avenues for other buffs and foci.
    • HS is the key beauty to this build. It hits for the same or slightly more than DS in the same tests on a single target (~1500-1700 depending on procs), but for half the cost. Again, only buffed with HoW it has a ~22% crit rate in my tanking gear, and when it hits two targets its damage is silly. Tanking two things I can build about 50% of my main target threat on the off-target without switching (though I do, of course to even that out) using only a HS spam rotation.
    • AoE threat is strong, but I've been playing with an interesting dynamic. BB hits (HoW only) for about 800-1k dmg with both diseases up, and just BB spamming into the crowd rather than using HS, can put delightful amounts of threat on large groups, especially paired with DnD and constant diseases. That said, on large groups of lvl 80 ghouls (about 15 at a time) in Icecrown BB spam (no DnD) added up to about 2600 dps, where as switch-target HS spam pushed upwards of 3600 dps on the same group and is easy to put well-rounded threat though not as uniformly (I highly recommend, rather than tab targeting, that you show over-head health bars and selectively target the mobs with the most health switching every strike or every other). I'm thinking for very large pulls the best method may be DnD, PS/IT, Pest <<ERW>> then DS, DS, BB, BB and commence railing the HS spam while swapping targets. Corpse Explosion (hitting for ~1-1.2k, HoW only) is a great buff to aoe threat as a use for the RP, and the spec build fine RP all on its own with the single rune spam.
    • Crit dependent in a tank build?! I've done a lot of gauging and the +crit % talents make a huge value here. Particularly Subversion with HS spam. That said, I usually get 2-3 stacks of Bloody Vengeance on my first full rune set, so the baseline damage buff is pushing nicely. If you don't know what I mean by crit-dependent this build uses Bloody Vengeance with Subversion, Imp DS, and Dark Conviction, to proc and maintain 9% increased physical dmg (HS, RS, melee, and DS usually in that order consituting about 70-80% of total single target threat on shorter fights). With +5% melee and spell crit, and +3% all crit elsewhere, plus Kings, GotW, and food buffs this build will do dangerous things with those crit effects.
    • Rune Strike is still a major tool and big threat factor and though I've pushed heavy amounts of health in my gear setup, I'm still rocking just over 60% avoidance on the sheet (RIP Blade Barrier parry). Bloody Vengeance and Blood-gorged buff RS to silly degrees (29% in the best cases) and it does more damage than ever, enough so that I'm tempted to replace glyph of Vamp Blood with glyph of RS if I didn't feel I wanted to squeeze out that survival.
    • The use of almost entirely melee tools makes this build very light on Hit dependency, though it benefits very well from expertise (convenient given my current tank gear). The buff to armor pen and the change to Blood-gorged are going to work terribly well with full stacks of sunder and FF applied!
    • This build sports major self-buffing for both stamina, strength, and AP. +6% stamina adds nicely to health stacking. Compounding +8% Strength used with HoW(/Strength of Earth) adds up to a delightful amount of AP, compounded with Bladed Armor and with +10% AP (which can be applied otherwise by an enhance shaman if you have one), makes for fantastic threat buffing. All of these combine for fine gear scaling. In my most recent tests I had 3600 AP with only HoW and no Abom's Might proc (+10%), with raid buffs this is going to be a very big number.
    • Self-healing tools are the backbone of survival on this build. Imp Blood Pres, Gift of the Naaru (thank you racial being instant cast), DS heals, Imp Rune Tap, and Mark of Blood are very powerful tools summed up, and basically have escalating value in that order depending on use. The total incoming health along with Vamp Blood's bonus to healing and the massive health pool make for a very survivable tank, though mitigation may not be as strong as Frost or Unholy. Generously used IBF will be nice to take the edge off otherwise.
    Recent Changes and considerations:
    So, one of the major changes I did was to drop Ravenous Dead. This was actually a little tough to do, but the net effect was better. I may revisit this down the road in Ulduar gear with the heftier Strength levels, but it represented only the loss of about 20 ap per point and a negligible amount of parry. It was exchanged for additional tools like the last point of Blood-Gorged that showed a distinct increase in total damage.

    Hysteria is an ability I'm on the fence on. On one hand it allows me to get a big boost of threat when I need it, though it needs to be used carefully as it has a big cost with a tank who stacks huge health. On fights where the healing is less strained, or used carefully with Vamp Blood it can actually pay for itself (20% increased dmg paired with 35% increased heals means Imp Blood Pres and DS will be kicking double buffs). At that, it's a double threat buff for making it easier for your Imp Blood Pres to tick for additional threat while increasing that healing for still more healing threat. It definitely needs to be used carefully, and when I don't feel like I could safely use it on myself it turns into a great raid buff for a choice kitty, warrior, or rogue. With the changes to enrage effects, it will require very careful communication and application though.

    I had a long arduous back and forth considering Imp Blood Pres vs finishing Sudden Doom. Sudden Doom is in an odd trade off from where it is pre-3.1. Pre-3.1 it has a lovely synergy with guaranteeing Bloody Vengeance stacks, but it has the unfortunate requirement of slipping a CD into a single rune spam rotation which leaves very few rune blackouts for RP dumping let alone free DCs (though they are absolutely worth it). The trade makes them free still and no longer require space in your rotation, BUT they no longer crit for that added bonus, nor can you choose what to pelt with that free crit, it auto-targets your main target (if only the cleave could proc it on the second target, I'm highly certain it is a proc on cast, though, not on hit, meaning you don't get a double chance when cleaving). The end result is that Sudden Doom is smack on its budget of about 1% increase to my total damage per point (DC hits for about 1200 in my build with only HoW). This buff is nice for being a bit bursty, and it has no conditions it will always work and apply. Imp Blood Pres on the other hand, is a limited situation tool. The healing is relatively small, both in magnitude and in overall averages. If I am pulling 2k dps, it is 80 hps, which is almost negligible. To get the tiny buff to threat, or the additional health you need to not have full health, which is also limited in available application. However, the value of this talent is as a quiet health buff slipped into the cracks. The small size of the healing ticks actually works in your favor as it slips into the cracks even when your health isn't quite full. I'm also generally more concerned about buffing survival in this build than threat, but this talent offers a small gain to both. I may change my mind on this one later, but it is actually looking to be a nice value and of versatile application.

    Glyph Selections:
    Minor glyphs are a fairly minor consideration. The only ones I particularly care for while tanking are Blood Tap, HoW, Pestilence, and Corpse Explosion. Blood Tap is non-negotiable as a tank for me, it's an easy way to reduce dmg taken as I use Blood Tap constantly. HoW is handy because it allows me to space out re-applications more liberally when I'm the one buffing it, it also allows me to leave the buff on people not in range to rebuff longer, though neither of these is vitally important and 2 min only affects rebuffing not between fights when dealing with a boss. Pestilence is quality for matters of trash, but limited in the fact that it only saves you if mobs are farther than 10 yrds but less than 15 yrds away. For that reason I tend to opt out of the glyph in favor of the others because if they aren't in close range for my Pest I have other things I need to fix. The choice is between Pest and CE glyphs. CE has been a fun glyph since CE got its damage suped up. That said, the times when CE actually kills something is not frequent, but when it does it can be a nice little damage boost. I may go back on the switch to CE but for now I'll start with that.

    Major Glyphs have a LOT more options, so it's a matter of best choices, here are the considerations:
    • DS = this is worth an extra 200-400 more damage on each DS. Since I'm using 2 DS on every other rune set, and I use it occasionally functionally (and it's a large increase to the heal through the damage), this is a pretty strong contender.
    • Vamp Blood = this is the one survival glyph that remains. IBF is no longer choice for tanks, though I didn't bother with it before. 30 sec out of 2 min isn't 30 sec out of 1 min, but it is still something. 30 sec of increased health and incoming heals is still a strong value.
    • Disease = this is non-negotiable with this build. 1 cast with any of the available runes (6 possible runes on even sets, 2 on odd) to refresh all the diseases on every target. With a build focused on single rune spending this represents one more HS on every 21 sec interval and never having to use IT/PS instead of DS, which is definitely worth the trade.
    • RS = this build hits harder RS's than any other, and RS is already the largest source of threat with most any build in any situation where you are the main target of the boss or more than a couple targets in aoe. 10% more crit could be a pretty serious threat buff, though it is not a survival buff like Vamp Blood, and DS has double duty value.
    • DnD = this is a nice value and is terribly tempting, but for two crucial details: it is aoe-centric and using it gimps the HS spam tactic by consuming 3 runes if it is used too frequently, and it does not get the extended spell dmg bonus from deep Unholy to maximize this bonus.
    • Rune Tap = this is another one that is tempting. It is a nice threat bonus when the heal lands, the 2% increase on myself is nice, though not overwhelming. The real thing is it is limited contingency and with the other strong contenders it slips from the top 3.
    • IT = this is weak for this build, extra RP doesn't have much application beyond CE spam in trash, as DC is only worth using as an ancillary benefit, there's not much good in feeding for more DCs. RS never comes up short because of the single rune spam providing a constant in-flow. This build also uses IT once per fight with glyph of disease.
    • PS = the damage may be buffed, but it's still small for this build, and as with IT, PS is used once per fight with glyph of disease.
    • HS = the slow is a very meager value in PvE, and may actually not even work on some situations where it might be most valuable.

    The only major glyph that is under consideration will be DS vs RS. If at any point I find that DS is becoming a non-factor in incoming heals, I may switch to RS for the threat buff.

    To those interested I did only a few different tests by myself. I took on 1, 2, or 3 level 82 elite giants in Icecrown to test harder hitting small group effects. Incidentally with strategic use of healing moves, I didn't even need to use Gift of the Naaru or Rune Tap with less than 3, Imp Blood Pres and DS were enough to fill the loss of health. For testing aoe and generally test the survival skills, I went into the Icecrown pit where there are high numbers of ghouls dappled with casters and 80 elite giants. I would round up 3-6 groups of 3-4 plus the occasional single elite. The largest groups required regular use of Rune Tap, Vamp Blood, and even the occasional DS for functional healing, but overall the damage was reasonably absorbed, and the damage output went up remarkably with more mobs. Some quick math, as I'm thinking about it:

    BB does we'll average 950 dmg on each target. HS does 1800 on 2 targets, both with crit adjusted averages. We'll assume, for simplicity, that both will increase to the same degree with raid buffs, though I suspect HS may fair better. Both moves have the same cost, so we'll leave out the other factors related to rune spending. HS will do 3600 dmg every swing regardless of number of mobs, and will proc Abom's Might and Sudden Doom. We'll leave out Abom's Might since I expect to always have the buff without applying it myself. Sudden Doom, with only 1 pt, is a 5% chance for 1200 more dmg per swing, we'll average that out to 60 more dmg per cast, for a grand total of 3660. So, with 2-3 targets there is no competition, HS will win easily for total and for spread damage. On 4 targets BB starts doing barely more dmg total per rune (3.8k), but less on any single target with each rune, for strategic purposes HS is still probably the better choice up to 5 targets. Beyond 5 targets BB's total damage and spread make it desirable for good foundation threat, but it may still only be worth occasional use with heavier HS's on main targets (6 targets = 5700 dmg total per pop).

    Food for thought, landmark placed. If you want to share your build in a similar fashion or comment/question mine, please share. =)
    Last edited by Satorri; 06-16-2009 at 04:49 AM.
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  2. #2
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    You've obviously put a lot of thought into this, but I wonder why you haven't even considered Scent of Blood. It seems to me that with the nerf to BoSanc it is now a required talent to fuel Rune Strikes. Not to mention maintaining a RP pool large enough IBF on need, now that it's Glyph got beat into uselessness.

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    To rune tap and mark of blood, from my guess work at 3.1 ulduar I have a feeling threat is going to be a lot more problem to tanks then ever before which is why I'm wary at spending 6 points into survival talents and using a blood rune which as you admit is the staple of blood by spamming BB or HS you are losing a considerate ammount of threat and talent points towards more threat talents, personally I find that it's probably best to forego minor survivability tools cause lets face it rune tap is going to be just overheal due to if you get that low your healers are going to be popping heals on you, meanwhile mark of blood gets eaten away at way to fast.

    Personally what I'm going to try for 3.1 is http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...2&version=9757 I find the increased threat tools really help and allow me to stay on top, as might of morgraine I get increased damage to my crits of all kinds which is what blood seems to encentuate. Meanwhile an extra 2% str is more parry and AP which allows me to increase survivability. I don't need imp icy touch as I run with a pally and feral druid that can do the same thing and Necrosis works on rune strikes producing more threat for the lack of rune strikes we will have due to BB change.

    But as you said, your build has a lot of personal prefferences in it and so does mine.

  4. #4
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    To Zee, With my current blood spec, without BoSanc, I have absolutly no RP gen problems. My rotation isnt the best but generates more than enough RP move for move.

    I may not keep Rune Tap (just nice for soloing big scary things) and op for more threat oriented talents. The point about Imp Blood is prolly the reason I wont be getting it, just may top me off if it lands but does such minimal healing to not really warrent picking up. I am really not sure what exactly I am going to be doing with my blood build with 3.1. I may be taking alot of everyones builds into consideration and using Dual Spec to test out a couple different blood builds at once (meaning a few runs on and and swaping for another couple of runs). I love the play style of both blood and frost, but have recently been leaning towards blood because of its "healing" survivability instead of pure "mitigation" (yes i understand that avoidance isnt mitigation but for all inensive purposes it is). The biggest thing that I have worried about with blood is our AoE viability. I understand that HS spam may seem like a way to go but with 4k+ dps dropping nukes on your AoE pulls, HS tab spam just may not be enough for those mobs that arent getting hit from the start, that BB may have to lay down the foundation of threat before HS spam could jump in.

    DS is something that as of now (live) just doesnt cut the mustard and to be honest I rarely test it because of its weak damage but sometimes suprising heals. Maybe with 3.1 I can actually see about dropping it into my rotation and picking up Deathrune Mastery which I currently dont have. (My current build may seem alil funky but I usually IT, PS, HS, HS, Oblit, RS or DC depending and start back with IT, for single targets. May not seem too efficent but has held up against 4.5k+ dps)

    I have always loved to read your posts Satorri, they always come full of very well thought out choices and consideration to other viable picks. Will be interesting to see what actually fallows through when 3.1 goes live. I am looking forward to a buff to Blood. Seems to me atleast that even if your not tanking with a blood tank build, you can still push decent dps.

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    I mentioned this somewhere in that wall o' text (oops I crit my thread), it's a sad irony Zee. Blood is the one tree that doesn't have a particularly tasty use for RP, and it already generates more than enough. Frost is an excellent case for producing more than you need to dump on giant FS's. Unholy needs more than Blood to keep up UB as well as RS's. Blood only needs to keep up for RS's which I never fail to be ready for. In fact, with this build, I have more than enough to RS all day, pop IBF when I need it (I don't use the glyph now and have never noticed the cost), and I still need to dump DCs frequently which means CE will not be wasted without RP to use it. This also works well with glyphing DS, since I only dump RP as needed so my total stays high and keeps up a full buff on DS (65 RP is the full 25% increase to DS damage). I did consider Scent of Blood but I passed it over a while back, even when it was still crazier than now (now it only provides about 0.5 RP per sec per pt assuming most rapid procs which would just require that you be under continual assault).

    And Orobor, you're right, personal choice is all the difference in the world. I did a lot of math concerning the +%Str talents and their effects. They are always nice to pick up, though they really don't touch your parry chance noticeably. Quick math, if you take all the +%Str talents you get a total of 11% (Vot3W, Abom's Might, Rav Dead) which if you have 1k Str which is a respectable value right now gives you 110 more Str, which is 220 AP (nice) and 25 parry rating (not bad, but barely noticeable 0.2% or so if you have strong gear), and all that for 8 talent pts, you do want to consider what the whole talent is bringing. Each 1% there is worth all of 2 parry rating, so I don't feel awful about trimming Ravenous Dead, especially in favor of Epidemic which buys a LOT of time in rotation.

    I do think you underestimate the value of the Rune Tap and Mark of Blood for both survival AND threat. The healing does cause threat. Fully improved Rune Tap will heal me for 8-9k raid buffed but not boosted (that's 12k with Vamp Blood). That is a massive chunk of threat on a raid boss, though it is weak on aoe since healing threat is split. There is a 50% reduction in threat on healing values, but our Frost Presence more than counters that (2.07x), so that's the same as hitting the boss with an 8k hammer as a dps without threat reduction (which a lot actually have built in to certain stances). A different way of looking at it, it costs one Blood rune, same cost as HS, and when HS crits it'll hit for say 3600 with raid buffs which is about 7200 threat on a single target, which is less than that Rune Tap. =) It also does not overheal much if you use it well, I've actually had it for the last 4 months as Unholy for only the size of a healing potion and I use it to a great deal of success, though lately I haven't even needed it. Mark of Blood is actually a powerhouse heal when you really need it. If you health is dropping fast, dropped low, or you know you're about to be bombarded, it heals you for 4% of your total health every time the mob hits you (every time they do dmg). 4% of my raid buffed health is 2k without Vamp Blood. If he manages to hit me 20 times in 20 sec it will almost certainly be for more than 2k each time and 2k will be essentially knocked out of that. Say he's hammering on me for 10k, 2k is a 20% dmg reduction effectually (30% with Vamp Blood). It's a situational tool, but it's survival when it really matters, and as mana becomes a bit more strained and healing required ramps up, this will not be a faulty form of survival in Ulduar. My only concern is actually taking more damage than I could be and whether or not I can use my heals effectually enough to counter that extra damage so to healers it doesn't feel like I'm taking more damage. It is an art form that I would like to master. =) Surely not for the faint of heart.

    Current state of affairs, Naxx, OS, even EoE are not really tests of survival. If you're sporting the best tank gear the game has to offer right now you are a rock, not hard to heal, and the only dangers are Maly or Sarth hitting you with a heavy single shot breath that takes most of your health. I look forward to Ulduar as it promises to make survival a necessary side of the equation again. The balance is always a factor for tanks, how much survival do I NEED, how much threat do I NEED, how much can I meet both minimums and buff them beyond to buy myself and my team safety margins. I'm hoping/expecting Ulduar will not allow you to socket/enchant entirely for threat, since as DK's our talents only go so far. The balance is the game, new tanks beware.
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    I gotta admit your post has convinced me that you are correct on those two abilities and have found a build I think to adjust for that thank you satori. Though I do feel bad about what I'm doing with it, taking out points in corpse explode, imp icy, and 2 points in blood gorge to include the full sudden doom (I'm sorry I can't pass up on 2-4k DC crits lol) and to fill up might of morgraine as I think crit for 3.1 will be where it's at.

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    DC has a rather low crit rate, remember that it is not the same as your melee crit rate. Only crit rating and Dark Conviction will boost that chance (then Boomkin/Elem Shaman, and Totem of Wrath), though it is a nice little threat buff, it's not really more than that.

    I didn't mention that here either, the reason I don't take MoM. While Blood relies on crit frequency to buff your crit frequency we still don't crit that much. The dmg/threat buff is reasonable, but not as big as you may like. As a brief for instance, with my gear I have a 22% crit chance with HS (the best of any move I use), without raid buffs. The way I calculate crit adjusted averages is by multiplying your average crit dmg amount by the crit % and add it to the remaining % times your average non-crit damage. Take my numbers 1500 non-crit and 3000 crit and that's 1980 caa.

    MoM does 15% more *bonus dmg on a crit per point. That means crits do 215/230/245% dmg. So, 1500 non-crit or 3225/3450/3675 crit. That is a 2030 at 1 pt, or a 2.5% dmg increase on HS per point (in my single target tests HS was about 25% of my total damage so that would be a 0.625% dmg increase overall). The lower the crit chance the smaller the bonus, which is why traditionally tanks don't take talents like this (GoG has a bonus to IBF duration which makes it very desirable). I didn't take it in favor of other talents that were more rounded for survival and threat, and less reliant on a value that is somewhat deficient as a tank (crit).

    A lot of my choices are very carefully thought out. I appreciate when I make sense and sway your opinions, but always follow your own instincts and try things for yourself if they appeal to you. =) Wisdom learned is more valuable than information given.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  8. #8
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    Oh wow, I didn't even notice the change to where it didn't autocrit anymore. Needs to pay more attention to PTR.

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    What thoughts on Dancing Rune Weapon? I've seen conflicting remarks on whether it adds to your own threat or has a threat table of it's own, and can't find a definitive source. It seems odd for it to have threat of it's own if it can't be targeted. I recall from my time leveling up that it could be used as a survival cooldown (i.e. spamming death strike with DRW and VB up). I always find it odd to go over 51 points into a tree and not pick up the 51 point talent.

    Edit: still can't find proof, but indications are that it does not add to your threat.
    Last edited by swelt; 04-07-2009 at 05:04 AM.

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    Dancing Rune Weapon, Summoned Gargoyle, Blood Worms, and your Ghoul (perma- or not) are all their own entities with their own combat log ID and their own threat.

    They do not, ever, add to your personal threat. As a result it's no good for a tank, it will only add to your raid dps. If you don't need survival or threat, you could take it, but I don't.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  11. #11
    Wouldn't the glyph of pestilence have a more stable effect then the glyph of CE which is much more situational and rarely causes the efffect from the glyph.

  12. #12
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    Satorri,
    Excellent post. Rarely does one see such posts in DK threads, an unfortunate fact which has driven me away from the DK boards since shortly after Wrath launch.
    Now, to the topic at hand.. with most of your opinions I agree. However, one objection which immediately pops ot. While WotN will have a 15s cooldown come 3.1, from my experience tanking all current content, very few talent selections can make up for a proc style save. Certainly WotN isn't quite what it used to be, there is no arguement there. However, damage does not always come at easily predetermined rates (more importantly, healing does not!) and at some point talents like WotN will win out vs baseline mitigation. Tanks are moving, healers are adjusting, crazy fireballs from hell are raining down, etc, etc. Nerfed or not, I find it difficult not to justify WotN in my blood builds. Too many encounters are won or lost over fractions of total HP.

    This being said, I haven't the time to look more indepth into your post. I'll follow this up at a later date.
    Last edited by nivani; 04-08-2009 at 02:16 AM.

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    Knyte, the Pest glyph is nice, but equally situational. More often than not my tank team is very sharp on trash, we pull stuff tightly, and seeing a second explosion on CE is crazy fun. Like I said though, it is one that I may swap depending on how trash feels in Ulduar. If I don't see it proc'ing I'll probably go back to Pest.
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    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    since we're losing avoidance and gaining mitigation I think it will be rather easier than it was previously
    That's the only thing I dont really get; for me, blood is better now than in 3.1, and is nerfed more than the 2 other tree (well maybe as much as unholy because BS suffer a lot with the 2min timer):
    - 2min instead of 1 (like all tree)
    - huge nerf to WotN, making a great (maybe even OP) talent to, like you said, a trash one.

    I understand your statement about more mitigation scalling better with blood, but still, for me the nerf to WOTN make the 3.1 blood not so much appealing (well at least less appealling than now).

    Other than that, great post, clear and precise (as always).


    Personnally, since they buffed frost tanking (well exept the 2min cd) and since that was my first "love", I will give it another try.

  15. #15
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    Really, the WotN change I'm sure was carefully calculated to bring it down to a reasonable level when paired with our now functionally 10% dmg reduction just for keeping Blade Barrier up. I would love to have seen it just become Ardent Defender but with a smaller %, but, alas.

    There's been a lot of consideration and small amounts of discussion about the changes the trees are going through, I haven't put all the survival talents down in the same place in writing to really consider: (*'s for the effects on everyone, since these talents are still silly for any tank not to take)

    Frost Pres = +80% armor, +5% all dmg reduction (was +80% armor, +15% magic dmg reduction)

    Blood:
    • *Blade Barrier = 1/2/3/4/5% all dmg reduction (was 2/4/6/8/10% parry)
    • Rune Tap = restore 10% total health 60 sec CD, imp to 13.3/16.7/20% with 50/40/30 sec CD (unchanged)
    • Spell Deflection = chance equal to parry % to reduce direct dmg from spells by 15/30/45% (was 10/20/30%, direct dmg as opposed to periodic/dots)
    • Vendetta = 2/4/6% total health back when you get a killing blow (unchanged, but I don't know any tanks who use this)
    • Mark of Blood = every time target dmgs someone it restores 4% of their total health for 20 sec or 20 hits, 3 min CD (unchanged)
    • Vet of the 3rd War = +2/4/6% Str, +2/4/6% Stam, +2/4/6 Expertise (unchanged)
    • Abom's Might = 25/50% on HS, 50/100% on OB/DS to give +10% AP to everyone in 45 yrds, also gives passive +1/2% Str (now procs on DS but only the passive unchanged portion is actually a survival buff)
    • Bloodworms = weapon hits have a 3/6/9% chance to spawn 2-4 bloodworms that heal the DK (supposedly they now heal for more, but they still don't auto-position like pets and they have no survival tools so they die to a light breeze, I haven't tested them in 3.1)
    • Imp Blood Pres = keep the 2/4% of your dmg done to you as healing buff from Blood Pres in Frost/Unholy Pres, increases your incoming heals by 5/10% in Blood Pres (replaced the aura that had the same effect, but also gave it to the rest of your raid within range of the aura, for tanks, buffed for dpsers in Blood pres)
    • Vamp Blood = increases your total health by 15% and increases all healing done to you by 35% for 20 sec, 2 min CD (CD increased from 1 min)
    • Imp DS = DS does 15/30% more dmg and the crit chance is increased by 3/6% (new talent, and DS has been changed from 60% weapon dmg + 178 to 75% weapon dmg plus 223 at the base. Healing has been reduced from ~80% strike dmg per disease to ~65% per disease)
    • Will of the Necropolis = Hits that take you below 35% or from 35% total health will be reduced in dmg by 5/10/15%, can only proc every 15 sec. (previously any attack that took you below 35% was reduced by the same, no internal CD)
    Frost:
    • *Toughness = +3/6/9/12/15% armor from gear (unchanged)
    • Imp Icy Touch = increases Frost Fever's attack speed reduction to 16/18/20%, from an unmodified 14% (unchanged)
    • Lichborne = makes the DK undead for 15 sec making him immune to charm, sleep, and fear, 3 min CD (previously +25% miss chance as well)
    • Frigid Dreadplate = +1/2/3% chance opponents will miss you with melee swings (unchanged)
    • Imp Frost Pres = you retain your +5/+10% health bonus in Blood/Unholy Pres, in Frost Pres you gain an additional +1/2% all dmg reduction (formerly an aura that increased raid resistance to everything by 40/80)
    • Unbreakable Armor = reduces dmg from all incoming attacks by 5% of your total armor and increases your total Str by 25% for 20 sec, 2 min CD (previously increased your total armor by 25%, your Parry chance by 10%, and your Str by 5% for 20 sec on a 1 min CD)
    • Acclimation = 10/20/30% chance on taking a spell hit to increase your magic resistance to that school by 50 for 18 sec, can stack up to 3 times, adds on top of auras/totems (unchanged)
    • Guile of Gorefiend = increases the duration of IBF to 14/16/18 sec from 12 sec base (unchanged)
    Unholy:
    • *Anticipation = +1/2/3/4/5% dodge (unchanged)
    • Ravenous Dead = +1/2/3% Str (unchanged)
    • Shadow of Death = talent is no more (used to increase Str/Stam by +2% for 1 pt)
    • Magic Suppresion = reduces all magic dmg taken by 2/4/6% and makes AMS reduce magic dmg by 83/91/100% from a base of 75% (used to be 5 pts for 1/2/3/4/5% reduced magic dmg and 80/85/90/95/100% on AMS. AMS now also has a cap, it will not reduce the incoming attack by more than the DK's total health)
    • Anti-Magic Zone = reduces all magic dmg taken by party/raid members inside the bubble by 75%. Will last 10 sec or until the bubble absorbs more than 2 times your AP + 10k (unchanged, note if all the dmg comes in one shot it will reduce all friendlies' dmg by 75% even as it goes over the cap)
    • Bone Shield = applies 4 bones to the tank. So long as one bone remains all dmg taken is reduced by 20%, lasts for 5 min otherwise, with 2 min CD. Bones are removed when the DK takes direct dmg (previously 1 min CD. Internal consumption timer seems to be ~2 sec, though it seems to be consumed more quickly on trash since 3.0.9)
    From the list Blood has the most items, though most of them are self-heals not dmg reduction so while functionally the self-heals may provide the same effect there will be a lag, more dmg taken on charts, and the heals may be bumped by healers in the raid/party. Frost has several small tools for shear dmg reduction, and the new UA looks scrumptuous (my gear it is worth 1500 dmg reduced on every attack for 20 sec, without the glyph which would boost that to 1800), and seems to be the least snipped or changed. Unholy has by far the fewest survival buffing talents, and relies almost entirely on Magic Suppression and Bone Shield. Bone Shield is taking a double hit with the reduction to Avoidance (depending on gear a 14-18% reduction, not raw %, relative %) and the doubled CD. Functionally it should work out to about a ~58% uptime reduction, though bear in mind that it already has a slightly better uptime margin than Vamp Blood or UA since you can prebuff.

    General Synopsis:
    Blood is now capable of larger self-healing with DS netting a slight gain in healing and a big gain in dmg making it generally worth using over Oblit, and Imp Blood Pres giving a slight margin, and arguably gets the biggest buff to overall effectiveness from the new dmg reduction mechanics. At the same time it loses the consistency of dmg reduction on WotN and Vamp Blood's uptime is cut in half. Relying on self-healing as an effective mitigator in the past has been a little awkward to get used to, but provided patient and attentive healers the difference can come out a bit in the wash (particularly get them used to not quite topping you off and being used to you being an additional source of heals. They also need to know when their heals are going to be bigger, a la Vamp Blood).

    Frost has the most raw dmg reduction abilities combining the new potent UA (20 sec) with an 18 sec IBF (still only 1 min CD), and 4% more flat dmg reduction from Frost Pres. Acclimation remains a solid spell dmg reduction as well. Frost has weak self-healing and no one would likely use DS anyway making self-healing effectually zero (bear in mind Blood Aura is going away if you had a DK giving you that in the party).

    Unholy has the least varied tools, though it still holds the best anti-magic defenses of the 3 trees. For physical mitigation everything relies on Bone Shield which in turn relies on your avoidance to maximize uptime. Currently it doesn't rightly matter how you gear since you can keep Bone Shield up frequently and even when it's down you don't take that much dmg. I suspect in 3.1 and Ulduar, when it really matters Unholy will be far better suited by keeping avoidance heavily stacked. Admittedly the new dmg mitigation baseline will help Unholy greatly when Bone Shield is not up, which will be a lot more of the time. Remember, as Unholy, mitigation is now 30% with Bone Shield and 10% without (provided diligence at maintaining Blade Barrier, which I generally assume most people have).

    I think we're in a fine place. At first the changes seemed jarring since they took away much of what we relied on, but overall I don't think we're really being nerfed in effect so much as shifting from an Juggernaut on CD with a softer side between, to a solid tank more of the time and with less effort, but a Juggernaut less often.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  16. #16
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    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0355020530303303201023131350305000000 0000000000000000000005200000000000000000000000000& glyph=122620060405&version=9757
    Initial Balanced Build

    This is the build i will use intially, it provides an easy and forgiving rotation to focus on learning new content, above average TPS, and elevated survival while we learn how not to die through fight mechanics.

    I view Tap, Imp blood Pre, and Mark of blood as useless to 25man raiding. The hits you take require real healing, not extra fluff healing.

    RS Glyph is a must. VB glyph is ok for survival but expendable later. Disease Glyph is a good crutch for now, but may be gone later.

    Once things are under control and i've upgraded gear to be on par with Uldaur ill shift back to tps focused, its my hope the content is harder then naxx was once geared...as much fun as beating DPS in DPS while tanking is.....

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0355020530003303201023101351005000000 0000000000000000000005200305000000000000000000000& glyph=121020060405&version=9757]
    Example TPS focused talent spread

    Though i may go back to unholy for tps, depending on how Armor Pen stacks up in real play.

  17. #17
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    o.O You mystify me, Obake. You take the spec but you refuse to learn the value of the tools, instead you dodge them. More than half the survival value of the blood tree is in the self-healing and knowing how to use it, but you judge and dismiss, I'd wager without ever learning it.

    Rune Tap is worth 7k health every 30 sec, on demand, in my starting 3.1 gear. Mark of Blood will heal me for 2k every time the mob touches me (or someone else) for up to 20 hits, and comes after the dmg but much faster than a healer. Both of these values are without Vamp Blood. These abilities are very powerful, but are only limited in value by the tank, unless you're tanking content that is not testing your survival abilities, in which case you don't need to be thinking about survival anyway. For Naxx right now (especially 10-man), if you are running with more than the required healing, and you're sporting good gear, your survival will not be tested, and you don't need much in the balance for survival skills. You are mistaken if you expect to carry that forward.

    I'm curious though, you call glyph of disease a crutch. A crutch for what? It allows you to maintain your diseases on every target in a pull, regardless of number (including only one target is important) for a single rune, which as blood you'll have piles available and you'll be using them one at a time. How is that not a threat buff over using IT/PS once every other rune set, which further keeps them from being death runes on the set after? What exactly is that a crutch for.

    You offer a lot of confidence in your dissent, but no rationale, only opinion. Care to give your explanation?
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  18. #18
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    Two things:

    First, what rotation have you been testing with? I've avoided blood pre 3.1 but I'm going to give it a whirl on PTR and want to skip some of the "figuring it out" phase.

    Second, and honestly, I've actually fallen off the Toughness wagon. I value it, but I've let it fall off in builds where magical damage was large threat. For Sarth, for example, I carry Imp IT to slow the melee swings but opt out of Toughness - If drakes are up, the melee damage is serious, but not immediately lethal, and once the drakes are all down, the damage is mitigated by the additional healers able to shift to me as MT. It's a mediocre example, but in magic heavy fights, Toughness is more of a DPS boost (via Bladed Armor) than mitigation. Thoughts?

  19. #19
    Really great explanation and analysis on the upcoming 3.1 Blood tank. Though my concern is, will raid healers and leaders be willing to rely on the blood tank's self heals during runs? When I say "rely", will they be willing to keep track of what you're doing in terms of self-healing so they can hold off a bit on theirs. This I think would be the hard part. I think most raid leaders and healers would rather let the healers spam the tank since it's been the way things are done for a long time and requires no new learning overhead.

    I'm not trying to bring blood tanking down, I really want to try it out. I've been a frost tank since I started raiding and would really like to try something new.

  20. #20
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    15% armor from gear is worth about 4k armor in my gear (it does play nicely with Frost Pres). That's not a small mitigation value at all. And I can understand gearing to survive fully buffed Sarth breaths, but about 65-75% of the damage you will take in any raid is physical, and armor is the best passive reduction of that. You pin the other side of it right. 4k more armor is another ~110 AP from Bladed Armor. To me that says this is both a solid survival talent AND a quality threat buff, which is why it is part of my 10/5(8)/5 of non-negotiable talents as a tank.

    I wouldn't advocate stacking armor as a DK (a la cloaks, enchants, trinkets, and rings) since we lost the armor bonus on it, but it is never a bad source of survival value, and as Frost you could actually make a case for using some improved armor on your gear to buff up Unbreakable Armor.

    I'm sure you can get away without armor in Naxx, and if you tank swap Sarth once the drakes are down you probably wouldn't notice TOO big a difference on dmg taken there if you have an abundance of healing on you up to that point (every drake down adds 25% to Sarth's melee dmg too, and the armor totally earns its weight for that). I couldn't not take a talent so easy to get and so valuable for survival when it comes time for Ulduar and some nice hard hitting encounters.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

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