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Thread: The Future of Heroic Strike

  1. #101
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    Here is how my button mashing breaks down to about 7-10 every second:

    2-3 HS hits every single second. It is my T key and I basically lay on that and just move my pointer finger on my left hand up and down as fast as possible to make sure it is always always queue'd. When Bloodlust+ Mark of Norgannon is up, my LL is hitting every 1.16 seconds.

    2-3 mashes on my next GCD Ability. This gets doubled if I'm looking to mash the OffGCD Concblow+The next priority. I only use 1 for devastate, 2 for SS, 3 for revenge, F for Shockwave, Shift+F for my Conc blow. This can all be done without moving the left hand.

    1-2 Movement keys or lighting up trinkets, shield bash, offGCD things.

    I don't know what your problem is with hitting buttons or saying I am using them excessively.

    I am certain that as soon as it is possible my Abilities go off, I'm not going to wait, I'm going to play my keyboard like a high-performance piano as fast as I can. If you're not doing it that's how you do it, but its my choice, and I am quite high performance.

    Thus, 10 Key-presses every single second is not a lot, don't feel bad though, some people just don't do it.

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    1
    Been reading this post and kinda got an idea just right out of the blues, *well sorta... was actually playing a flash game wid a combo system thingy while reading the posts*~~ There are several issues that GC has mentioned and it is really a pain to balance HS out for all three specs (Arms, Fury, Prot).

    Why not make HS for prot war a combo system? As in, *prot war HS's* --> procs *Valorous Strike lights up for 5 secs*. Kinda like HS triggering a Revenge sorta mechanism.
    I.E : 15 rage HS... + 20 rage Valourous Strike (or call it dual strike wid some sorta double slash animation ^o^)
    Now i checked the talent tree and fiddled around with it and thought...
    One handed Weapon Specialization... wat if we tied this new skill to this talent. Its down deep enough into the prot tree, so as to prevent it becoming an overpowered mechanism for other builds. Plus, why would a Double 2-handed fury war, or a Two-handed Arms go for a +10% one-hand weapon talent?

    Making it a sorta "Revenge" like thing will keep players on their toes, as linking combos is always fun stuff *like whacking the mole :P* At the same time it burns rage nicely when u got tons of rage.

    Now in addition to giving this extra skill, here's my idea of how the talent and skill should look:

    One-handed Weapon Proficiency (need a new name) lvl 1:
    +2% to 1-handed weapon.
    16 rage
    Usable only after you HS the mob. Generates High Threat, deals X damage (Gotta hit the calculators and see what damage to give it, cuz if dmg is too low... it would be pointless to use this skill as compared to doing HS * 2) Lasts 5 secs.

    One-handed Weapon Proficiency lvl 2:
    +4% to 1-handed weapon.
    17 rage
    Usable only after you HS the mob. Generates High Threat, deals X damage (Deals more damage than level one at the cost of 1 more rage) Lasts 5 secs.

    One-handed Weapon Proficiency lvl 3:
    +6% to 1-handed weapon.
    18 rage
    Usable only after you HS the mob. Generates High Threat, deals X damage (Deals more damage than previous level at the cost of 1 more rage) Lasts 5 secs.
    *At level 3 I suggest adding an extra perk, reduce HS cost by 1 rage~~ This is more or less an idea to help prot wars out in rage starved situations, more detailed explanation below*

    One-handed Weapon Proficiency lvl 4:
    +8% to 1-handed weapon.
    Reduce rage cost of HS by 2
    19 rage
    Usable only after you HS the mob. Generates High Threat, deals X damage (Deals more damage than previous level at the cost of 1 more rage) Lasts 5 secs.

    One-handed Weapon Proficiency lvl 5:
    +10% to 1-handed weapon.
    Reduce rage cost of HS by 3
    20 rage
    Usable only after you HS the mob. Generates High Threat, deals X damage (Deals more damage than previous level at the cost of 1 more rage) Lasts 5 secs.

    ****Well further thoughts on the extra perk, currently arms spec reduces heroic strike by 3, Focused rage reduce it by another 3 making it a total of 6. With another 3 more it would be 9. 6 rage for a HS.

    Consider the following scenario~~ Uber Eq-ed Tank goes to Heroic, he charges target and gains 15 (20 if specced) rage, to get hold of multiple mobs he Thunderclaps... now he runs a miss streak and only has the +5-8 rage gained from his white swing and whatever rage is left after TC. Prolly 10-15ish rage, normally <---I'd throw my bloodrage in now and get that rage going enuf for a SS to hold strong aggro on my main target ^o^b. then the next white swing comes +5-8rage, ur down to 12-15ish rage again. so typically i wait for my blood rage to tick a bit~~ move around and herd mobs into a nice position for the upcoming Shockwave. Uptill now threat for all mobs are really nice, healers could dish out alot of heals without worries of OT. However, ur rogue friend maybe in a tight spot... his treat is catching up fast on the main target and SS is usually 1-2 secs away from CD~~ ORZ. Bloodrage's final ticks + ur white attack has managed to give you 10-15ish rage at hand... Best case solution is Revenge + Devestate, and you've just managed to delay embarassing yourself as a guild MT being OTed every once in a while. But sometimes.... when lucky streaks + unlucky streaks go so far... you might only have 5-10rage at hand cuz the lucky mob parried your white attack ORZ. given this scenario if HS were cut down by another 3 rage, down to 6 rage in total with all other specs, I would not have to worry bout OT problems and low rage situations. Whereas in infinite rage conditions, since the *Valorous Strike* deals more damage and threat than HS, it would be a better option.

    Well then, my roommate suggests, wouldn't HS be a little to efficient in a Threat per Rage point of view? My answer : you've got infinite rage already, the point here is to pack the skills wid the highest threat possible in a given time frame. I.E: HS+VS > 2*HS

    Yet when in low rage situations, the lowered rage of HS helps a lot (ya you might starve urself out if u really did use HS at 10rage or lower as mentioned in scenarios above... but in situations where rage is just floating around 20-30~~ a 6 rage cost HS is totally awesome to make it through some miss streaks until u finally get hit :P)

    Well ongoing to further inspections of this skill as to how it may help offtanks as well. This talent not only boosts ur capability to deal sufficient damage while ur offtanking, it also allows the poor ST warrior to finally *at least do enough threat with little rage at hand to maintain second on the threat table*... Aside from that, if you spec fury + prot, you get to go back to the good old days where "dual 1-handed weapons ROCKS". Being able to dish out damage yet when time comes you can still put on a shield and be a darn good offtank to take a little bit of the brunt of the MTs back (i.e. going after the adds/summons/watever LOL). It still annoys the heck out of me when enchanters rip my rights to greed a cool looking 1-handed weapon, just becuz "its out of fashion for warriors to deal damage wid 1-handers." We are masters of weapons man, FYI i would gladly DPS wid a staff if it had some nice Warrior related stats LOL XD~~ so wats wrong wid being able to dish out damage wid a 1-hander as a warrior.

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    187
    Stream of consciousness crits me for 48,352,234. I die.

    Seriously, I do like the concept of more ability synergy and triggered combos. Nailing a mob with one ability opens them up to using another = fun stuff.

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    913
    Quote Originally Posted by Damonvile View Post
    What you're saying here goes far beyond just warrior issues then. Every class could do a few % more if they spam keys so fast there isn't even 1 millisecond of wasted time between attacks/heals. The only solution to that would be to allow people to preque a skill so spamming would be totally pointless.
    This isn't quite true. For example, casters (outside of casts following instant casts) can indeed queue their next spell a few hundred milliseconds in advance. Rogues and cat druids are capped by energy regeneration, retribution paladins don't have something to do EVERY global cooldown and on EVERY white swing. It's primary tanking classes that are stuck with this sheer frequency of attacks, which is true even without spamming a key around a global cooldown. Even if you assume only two key presses every global cooldown, that is comparatively excessive. One reason why I'm currently playing my holy priestess much more than my protection warrior is that I actually get to make tactical decisions in a fight rather than being stuck with a mindnumbingly repetitive task that has some fake complexity from having to push the right buttons in the right order.

    In a manner of speaking, the underlying problem is "frostbolt spam writ large". In order to make an activity appear more complex than it actually is, WoW clogs your cognitive bandwidth with doing something simple in a complicated (not complex) way, a.k.a. threat/DPS rotations. But it still remains an essentially repetitive task. For me, the fun moments of tanking come where you are NOT doing that, but from complexity inherent in an encounter (for a current example, tanking adds on Sartharion with three drakes up vs. tanking Sartharion himself -- the former a task that requires decision making and keen combat awareness, the latter one that has even been delegated to a voidwalker).

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    314
    I wouldn't mind seeing a change to better threat generation either. On Trash I've stopped piling in and let the OT's do it, then just watch for the leakers barrelling towards our overpowered Shamy/Warlock pairing, or the odd mage.

    Not always the tanks fault - throw in stuns, trappings and so on and dps trying to break meters and just being general fuktards rather than a raid asset and it's pretty simple for a decent dps to get a mob in face. In that aspect I'm bored of being rage starved on trash with a threat spec, and running minimal tanking gear to do a half arsed job.

    The issue as mentioned is not how much threat we can generate, but how we can translate the rage we have into that threat, with the full/empty senario. The threat we are using is that designed for LK, which was dumb it all down for nubs, give us a stonking threat boost, so any warrior and their monkey, geared or otherwise can tank away. Good for getting people into instances, My T6 geared warrior happily charge smashed his way through everything to VH with his original gear at level 72. It wasn't till late 70's that I needed to start adding in blues as threat became an occasional issue.

    Since tanking naxx it's basically gone backwards, gotten worse as dps quickly geared up, and shedding more and more gear only partially helps. I do enjoy being an aggressive tank and have winged gear and so on in the past, but unless it's a boss as various people have said you either waste a raid slot, do a few debuffs, or just plan your weekly shopping. Why I alternate tanking bosses around in naxx as the OT's are half asleep.

    If HS and game breaking issues are a problem with the dps area, then the use devastate for something useful idea isn't too shabby. Or, the option is port devastate to Sunder and reuse the ability for something useful. What IS devastating about it bar the proc - I'd rather slap a boss in the face with our RL mage's soggy Y-fronts for all the damage it does. Additionally who these days actually bothers to use sunder? It isn't worth getting a CC'd mob (err when?) in the face if botched on a worse case senario. usual case is YOU WANT the mob to be kicking you in the teeth as you can't function well anymore. You certainly won't bother with a sunder, you'll smack it in the face and bash it around the head with a shield, then slap a few dev's in for a repeat. Bring back LK PTR Devastate, or something useful plx.

    I'm surprised the easy options haven't been tried - boosting rage to 125, or enough for a dev/ss in the bank.

    Uladar does look different, but I can see that goes back from cc to aoe tanking once a raid has geared up with decent T8, so I'm in 2 mind whether we do need an additional AoE ability. I'd be half tempted to use heroic throw as a proper boomerang as for a ranged pull we do have a boomstick. The only downside I can see is a CC issue if used in normal rotation if it was tweaked to multiple rather than single targets.

    Failing that provide some glyphs as bloody band aid! dropping rage further on new and existing glyphs for ability costs would partially help for a threat/avoidance MT setup, and for a OT/dps second option. Since gamers have progressed beyond nub LK gaming and want to actually play the class without the incessant hamstringing can we kindly have the tools and energy to do that. I joked on our forums about swapping to a Gnome DK for april fools, but it is rapidly becoming unfunny, especially bumming around on the PTR.
    Former TBC/LK Tank
    Waiting for Dunmail Jnr to sleep to enable online gaming.

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    6
    I was thinking, surely the best thing to do is just to nerf heroic strike.
    If they made it like 1/2 or 1/4weapon damage, so it worked for slow and fast weapons, and buffed devaste/revenge. Then they could balance us and furys less around spamming heroic strike, as it would not make so much difference to our dps.
    Problem solved no?

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    25
    Nerfing heroic strike and buffing the other abilities like devastate really does nothing besides maybe slightly shift priorities. Still the rotation will be the same and the final threat output would be the same if designed as such. Heroic strike is in a category of its own as a next melee swing ability. I for one dont want any change to this its what makes prot fun to play the button mashing. I have other toons for other things. If they really want to change it though its a rage cost adjustment they need to make. Make heroic strike cost something like 25 rage and give us a max of 150 rage so it doesnt constantly get capped out by hits. Balance threat of the other abilities around that with a devastate buff which is kinda in order anyway. Then heroic strike is what its always been a rage dump that will actually dump more rage than you gain in 90% or more encounters hopefully. When using it to dump rage you should have more threat than other tanks but while not having the rage avail to use you should do slightly less. To me its really that simple as long as the rage cost is perfectly designed around the rage gains we receive. We also get to keep our fun times spamming but it will have to be at controlled times. But there is always the concern of how bad your threat might be in a heroic or earlier raid when hs would be rarely available. This all goes back to a rage adjustment that might have to be in our well geared future.

    There is no point in changing heroic strike though just balance the amount of rage it dumps around the amount of rage we are gaining. Then try to smooth out the rage system in the gains so its maybe slightly more predictable somehow thats the real challenge.

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