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Thread: The Future of Heroic Strike

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    If Heroic Strike went from (Weapon Damage)+X to 2-3x(Weapon Damage), that'd start skewing us pretty quick toward slower weapons.

    We'd damn sure want to use it every swing, still, but the rage cost could come up accordingly, and when you did use it, you'd sure feel the benefit in a hurry.
    Actually, this seems pretty elegant. I'm going to do some musing on this... One potentially glaring issue comes when the DPS warrior is taken into consideration - 2.5 x Armageddon's weapon damage is pretty hefty.

    Despite this potential downfall, it seems like this idea could have potential, when combined with other changes.
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  2. #22
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    Spamming HS in its current mode is a bit tedious, but where is the line drawn between tedious spamming and playing the game?

    On a few occassions I've respec'd as dps, the amount of button pushing dropped dramatically to the point of diminished entertainment. I really like furiously hitting keys.

  3. #23
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    This is a non-post. He could have just as easily rambled on about bunny rabbits and the outcome would have been effectively the same.

    WTB [actual changes] pst

  4. #24
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    "Maybe you would HS after a big dragon breath or something, but you wouldn't be able to turn 90% or more of white hits into Heroics."

    then how would i hold aggro?

    "Again, we'd need to make sure that the tank could do something if they felt aggro slipping away."

    thank you for being considerate

    <3 for my poor rogue friends. your day will come, some day...
    Zeppelin, Wow, and Whiskey... Can life get any better? I submit that it Can NOT!

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiz98 View Post
    I think using a keyboard macro like that is a ToS violation (though I've not read them myself in quite a while).
    As far as I know, there's only one Timetheos in WoW, so they'll never find me! (It's much safer for someone with a popular name like Kungen to blab about illegal things on a forum and get away with it :P)
    Apparently what makes keyboard macros violate the ToS is when the player actually goes afk while the hardware keeps playing. The test: a GM whispers you, and you need to respond.
    Mourning Nightfall since 2.4.2.

  6. #26
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    OK here's my idea. Restrict Heroic Strike to battle and berzerker stances and keep it balanced for DPS and PvP. Add a new attack restricted to defensive stance, Guardian strike: causing a high amount of threat, x weapon damage, taking say somewhere between 50%-100% of your current rage and converting that to damage also like an execute. In other words instead of dumping small amounts of rage every 1.6 seconds dumping most or all at longer intervals but hopefully keeping the same basic threat per second as HS spam. The only problem I can see with this idea right off is it even more gimps you in rage starved situations.

    Even if my idea isn't perfect I still think the devs trying to balance HS around tanking, DPS, and PvP is insane. I really think we should have a separate rage dump for tanking.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    If Heroic Strike went from (Weapon Damage)+X to 2-3x(Weapon Damage), that'd start skewing us pretty quick toward slower weapons.

    We'd damn sure want to use it every swing, still, but the rage cost could come up accordingly, and when you did use it, you'd sure feel the benefit in a hurry.
    That, of course, would exacerbate the problem, not solve it.

  8. #28
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    There's also a good deal of discussion on the 'on next attack' mechanic on itself. I..like it, but given the number of key-strokes necessary to use HS in its current form, everyone agrees(by and large) that it's excessive. Will increasing its cost/damage change things or simply further make it even more crucial to use for tanks in the 'infinite rage' scenerio? Will changing the mechanic of the skill provide a long term fix? I hate the idea of turning it into yet another cooldown(especially with recklessness and Deathwish), but the only thing I could come up with was to make it a CD that increases threat by x amount for next x attacks at the cost of bleeding rage in defensive stance and increasing damage/rage cost for all attacks outside of defensive stance.

    It's a very poor band-aid, I understand. It's not something I would like to see happen, rather, I'm hoping that just another random idea will help everyone come up with something that the majority(because not everyone is going to agree regardless) of the warrior community here can be happy with and that GC can consider.

  9. #29
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    Increased cost/dmg would make it much more effective on infinite-rage fights than HS currently is... unless a cooldown is introduced too.
    Mourning Nightfall since 2.4.2.

  10. #30
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    Maybe leave Cleave as is and change HS to a passive ability that does damage on every attack based on rage. This would remove HS as a rage dump however so a change in rage mechanics would also be necessary. I've always liked rage for doing damage myself and only a little bit of rage for being hit/block/avoiding a blow. For those of you who like toggles.. make Cleave the same way, you can toggle one or the other for use, both doing damage based off current rage.

    Besides the need to change where we get rage from, threat and damage on HS and Cleave may need to be looked at in this case. Cleave could easily do half damage as HS to two targets (three with glyph).

    For those who ask where the rage dump comes in, with rage based on damage done I think it could be more easily tuned so we rarely ever get to 100. I would be careful about basing it off weapon damage or weapon DPS, while easily controlled, it would mean that there would be no rage gen based off any other ability like shield slam at all. If it were based off weapon damage or DPS though (with modifications based off actually having to hit of course as well as level) it could still work. While it's been a long time since I did my DPS week, I seem to recall the more DPS abilities taking a lot more rage, which could be provided by the higher DPS and damage on the 2 handers used.
    My offspec is god.

  11. #31
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    It's an interesting concept. The more I read and the more I think about it, I can't help but wonder about GC's initial ending statement about whether they're even happy with warriors getting hit and turning it into threat. It just seems like that model and the 'on next attack' mechanic together is going to result in the same situation we have now regardless. The toggle, while it's a solution to lessen keystrokes, just doesn't seem like it's..satisfying.

  12. #32
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    Honestly, I feel like there is something of a hole in the Prot warrior GCD attacks. Revenge and Shield slam are on short cooldowns, Rend is a DOT, then we have several longer cooldowns... and devastate, which applies a debuff and has a chance to refresh SS, and does crappy damage . There really should be a spamable damage ability, and really, Heroic strike looks like what that ability should be, but for whatever reason it is on next swing instead of on the GCD. A high rage, high threat/damage ability that doesn't proc sword and board would be kind of a nice thing to have in our rotation, you would still be revenging every chance you get, and using Devastate to keep up Sunder Armor, so Sword and Board would still have its place, but it would smooth out our threat quite a bit, and if the rage cost on whatever this spammable ability is high enough, then Heroic strike would move back to being a dump, rather than an all the time thing.

    You could even have a low base cost for it, but include some sort of mechanic so that its cost and damage go up while we are being beaten on. That way, the rage mechanic itself could just be left alone, but we would be using more on GCDs while tanking, while still have a damage ability that provided some better DPS when not getting hit in the face.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by BWarner View Post
    Actually, this seems pretty elegant. I'm going to do some musing on this... One potentially glaring issue comes when the DPS warrior is taken into consideration - 2.5 x Armageddon's weapon damage is pretty hefty.

    Despite this potential downfall, it seems like this idea could have potential, when combined with other changes.
    Easy answer there. Scale the threat and rage usage generated by the strike but not scale up the damage.

    1.5x dmg as it is right now (so it stays viable as part of a rotation (yes some of us don't spam it every chance we get, even without fantastic gear)
    2-3x the threat per point of rage used that it generates curently
    Get rid of the improved version that lowers the rage cost.

    If they make it a toggle then i hope to god they do the same for Rune strike for the DK's since it's basically the same ability except DK's is like a combo of Hs and Revenge (but it's our only at least labeled in the tool tip, large threat generater outside of DnD, and al the other tank types have several.)

    I have a level 80 DK tank ad a lvl 80 prot warrior just to give some insight into my thinking.

  14. #34
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    There is something to the whole concept of warriors getting hit to get rage, to get threat, too, in fairness. There are more than a few times that I find this to be a rather broken mechanic.

    Take trash(most obvious example), or any boss in which there is a taunt swap mechanic in which one tank is a warrior, and one is a tank that will not need to take a hit after the initial snap aggro period.

    A warrior may get a big snap at the beginning from his initial charge rage, but if he doesn't replenish that supply afterword it is rapidly lost to the tanks that can sustain their threat through this period of rage starvation. As another example, in a recent Malygos fight after my initial charge/tricks/misdirect cocktail I went on a mad avoidance streak, proceeded to full resist the first breath, and thankfully was hit right after it. I was able to hold it through inventive burning of my fixates and taunt.

    Should we really find ourselves in situations like this where we actually crave getting hit? It does seem a little counter intuitive to the entirety of our gearing strategy. We gear so we get missed, and so that we minimize incoming damage. We actually benefit most(in threat terms) from maximizing incoming damage!

    I like the overall rage mechanic, really. I even like getting rage on being hit. Unfortunately, though, I think the bar has swung too far towards getting hit and too far away from making our own rage, we're too dependant on something that is in our best interests to avoid in the first place.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DnQuxiti View Post
    You could even have a low base cost for it, but include some sort of mechanic so that its cost and damage go up while we are being beaten on. That way, the rage mechanic itself could just be left alone, but we would be using more on GCDs while tanking, while still have a damage ability that provided some better DPS when not getting hit in the face.
    WTB Edit...
    Thinking about this further, if this ability did nothing other than light up revenge every time it hit (but did not lower the cooldown/proc something/etc, S&B is enough), then it would work perfectly fine tanking or not tanking (Especially true if Revenge were made usable in other stances). It would just need to meet the following criteria:

    Cost enough rage to make HS spam the exception rather than the rule while taking big hits.
    Not cost so much rage that it is unusable when not tanking.
    Be better threat and damage than Heroic Strike and Devastate+S&B.
    Be worse threat and damage than Revenge and Shield Slam.

  16. #36
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    I personally would rather not have yet another ability. I still feel Dev should be our spammable ability. A fix there would be much nicer then a new ability.
    My offspec is god.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    I dont see how a toggle system would help, the point isn't so much that Heroic Strike is a pain in the ass to spam, but more that its just too situational of a threat mechanic that we rely on too much.

    And toggling is just lame...I mean image if we could of just toggled Old School Shield Block?
    Binding spam-buttons to mousewheel is equally lame. Spam buttons are bad UI, so they should be fixed.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizlayn View Post
    OK here's my idea. Restrict Heroic Strike to battle and berzerker stances and keep it balanced for DPS and PvP. Add a new attack restricted to defensive stance, Guardian strike: causing a high amount of threat, x weapon damage, taking say somewhere between 50%-100% of your current rage and converting that to damage also like an execute. In other words instead of dumping small amounts of rage every 1.6 seconds dumping most or all at longer intervals but hopefully keeping the same basic threat per second as HS spam. The only problem I can see with this idea right off is it even more gimps you in rage starved situations.

    Even if my idea isn't perfect I still think the devs trying to balance HS around tanking, DPS, and PvP is insane. I really think we should have a separate rage dump for tanking.
    This is an interesting idea.
    A slight tweak; make is a still on next swing mechanic and have it use a large percentage of your current rage, dealing damage and threat based off how much rage was used. Give it a exponential mechanic to it as well, more rage used the threat is greatly increased. You would still be able to use it in rage starved situations and when you have great amounts of rage it would be a great ability.

  19. #39
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    Heroic Strike as toggled ability would be good for playability, if mechanics stay as they are. I think the best mechanics change they could do is make a change to the rage intake formula to scale with damage from 0 to a small amount like 30 and award a base 5 or 10 rage from all swings avoided, blocked or taken. This would accomplish two different things. It would help to normalize rage on avoidance to avoid dry spells and it would help making the scaling based on damage smaller. In order to make this work, abilities would need to be adjusted to make GCD abilities provide more threat (Devastate buff?), but in the end Heroic Strike would be more of a

  20. #40
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    I can see why they think this is a bigger change than something for 3.1. It's easy to see how this slips into broader and deeper issues like certain abilities even having threat modifiers in the first place (which I'm personally not a big fan of anyway. Stances/auras/forms should handle that load, innate damage should be the source, etc.).

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