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Thread: Expertise > Hit?

  1. #1
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    Expertise > Hit?

    Hi, I'm new to tanking and was just reading this article about expertise and hit: Expertise is always better than Hit - Warriors - TankingTips.com It states that expertise is always better than hit but the articles slightly seems to be towards warriors but I'm pretty sure it applies to DKs too. Is it ALWAYS better to gem for expertise? As in, there's no reason at all to gem for hit since expertise is apparently twice as good as hit? Thanks.

  2. #2
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    If you are wanting to hit the boss then EXP. is a good stat to gem for as up to 26 EXP. you are taking the bosses dodges and parries out and up to 56 (I could be off on this number) you are removing the bosses parries. The reason some think that it is a better stat for tanks up to the soft cap of 26 is this reduces the parrie gibes thus increasing your threat and reducing the damage the boss does to you, note this is for pure physical damage only. personally I gem/gear for a little over the soft cap of 26 then switch to gemming gearing for hit.

  3. #3
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    It's kinda iffy for DK tanks... many of your attacks are spell based depending on spec and rotation, which expertise does nothing for. I'm still learning DK tanking but I think particularly frost would favor hit over expertise.

    Either way neither one should be neglected.

  4. #4
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    For DK's it all depends on which tree you are speced in. Blood uses more physical then either frost or unholy with unholy using the most spell based damage

  5. #5
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    Yes, Expertise is 2x better than Hit for a warrior tank.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takethecake View Post
    It's kinda iffy for DK tanks... many of your attacks are spell based depending on spec and rotation, which expertise does nothing for. I'm still learning DK tanking but I think particularly frost would favor hit over expertise.

    Either way neither one should be neglected.
    Expertise removes chances to be dodge or parried, but also reduces the parry hasting a boss can 'proc'. While getting to the estimated 12-14% expertise to remove boss parrying is unlikely, it's worth working towards. In a sense, expertise is avoidance as it reduces the the 'average' attack speed of a boss. Healers appreciate it, even if it's not something that shows up in your character's defense tab.

    Personally, I've found more issues with getting expertise capped, as a variety of raid buffs, talents and the draeni racial make it frightenly easy to be hit capped currently.
    Last edited by Esch; 03-23-2009 at 06:33 AM. Reason: spelling

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaykaylol View Post
    Hi, I'm new to tanking and was just reading this article about expertise and hit: Expertise is always better than Hit - Warriors - TankingTips.com It states that expertise is always better than hit but the articles slightly seems to be towards warriors but I'm pretty sure it applies to DKs too. Is it ALWAYS better to gem for expertise? As in, there's no reason at all to gem for hit since expertise is apparently twice as good as hit? Thanks.
    For the most part this is generally true for DKs as well, but its more like hit = exp for most specs

    Frost: Hit > Exp (almost all your attacks are spells and/or cant be parried and dodged, ie FS and RS)
    Unholy: Hit = Exp (its really half and half here. SS is affect by both as you can get partial resists, dodges, and parries. Exp is still slightly better to 26, but after that hit takes over by alot)
    Blood: Exp > Hit (Most of your main attacks on bosses are physical hits and most can be parried and dodged)

    TBH, in the current lvl of content parry haste is not a real concern for either warriors or DKs. The reason parry haste was such a problem before (TBC) was due to crushing blows and parry hasted attacks would eat up SB charges leaving the warrior exposed to crushing blows. Since crush is off the table for bosses, the concern over parry hasting is just about gone. I would actually favor +hit to an extant as that is what governs our taunt and missing a taunt can be way worse than a boss getting parried. I know we have 2 taunts, but it can still cuz problems to miss with the first.
    I cast the spells that make the people fall over.

  8. #8
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    Basic facts:
    32.79 Hit Rating reduces your chance to miss with melee attacks by 1%
    26.23 Hit Rating reduces your chance to miss with spells by 1%
    32.79 Expertise Rating reduces your chance to be dodged/parried by 1%

    *Being parried by a boss may speed up their next melee swing, depending on the boss.

    That's one half of the equation. As DK's to figure out how they help you, you need to know your chance to miss or be dodged/parried.

    Base chances:
    Level 80 mob = 5% melee miss, 4% spell miss, ~5% dodge, ~5% parry
    Level 81 mob = 5.2% melee miss, 5% spell miss, ~5% dodge, ~5% parry
    Level 82 mob = 5.4% melee miss, 6% spell miss, ~6% dodge, ~6% parry
    Lvl 83 (Raid boss) = 8% melee miss, 17% spell miss, ~6.4% dodge, ~12-15% parry

    *Dual wielding, for auto-attacks only, the chance to miss is the above number plus 19%. This does not affect special attacks of any sort.

    As a DK there are 4 different hit buffs you can get:
    Nerves of Cold Steel (Frost tier 2) = +1/2/3% chance to hit with 1h weapons
    Virulence (Unholy tier 1, in 3.1) = +1/2/3% chance to hit with spells
    Heroic Presence, Draenei in Party (not raid-wide) = +1% to hit with melee AND spells
    Misery (Spriest)/Imp Faerie Fire (Boomkin) = +3% to hit with spells

    So, trash does not require the same hit or expertise bosses do. Until you remove the target's chance to dodge (6.4% on a boss = 26 expertise = 210 exp rating) Expertise improves your chance to hit with dodge/parriable attacks by double the chance per point that hit rating does. After that it's worth the same improvement to hit as hit rating, though only on bosses, and again only on dodge/parriable attacks.

    To appreciate the values of each you need to recognize how much of your damage comes from which sort of source, and which of the above buffs you have. The specifics will vary for each spec, play style, and gear set. The best thing to do for yourself is to check recount after a raid and you'll see the breakdown.

    In the breakdown, if it has "strike" in the name, it is a melee ability with the melee hit cap and can be dodged/parried (this includes Obliterate). Other abilities are spells and subject to the spell hit chance (though UB seems to behave differently). Most geared DKs will have melee auto-attacks representing 24-40% of their total damage, and 15-25% as Rune Strike while main tanking.
    The exceptions:
    Rune Strike and Frost Strike cannot be dodged/parried.
    Diseases do not have their own hit chance, if the IT/PS hits the disease is applied 100%.

    I trust from there you can figure out the relative value and the maximums that you can gear towards. As a tank, if you want to be maximally effective, I'd highly recommend acquiring a range of gear that will allow you to adjust to the situation. Gear is mixed enough now that you shouldn't need more than 2 sets worth to cover every need, but you can figured it out from what's available. On trash you need significantly less hit/exp, so you can have a set that focuses on pure avoidance and/or threat stats like Str/Crit/AP etc. For bosses, if you want to maximize threat, you'll want to ride the hit/exp caps and boost your Strength from there. Usually it's not worth overbudgeting expertise for the parry cap, and it's not often worth overbudgeting to never miss a spell either, but I think it's better that you know the details and decide for yourself than blindly follow directions.

    Sheeple have no place tanking high-end raids.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  9. #9
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    Oh, and Ray, spell resistance/resists/partial resists are not affected by hit rating. It is affected by spell penetration, but I don't expect anyone to use that for pve tanking. =)
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

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