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Thread: Stamina vs Avoidance on DKS 真??

  1. #1
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    Stamina vs Avoidance on DKS 真??

    I was wondering if anyone knows what is better for tanking, getting more stamina or more avoidance (in the means of either parry, dodge or miss chance).

    What I was wondering is, suing Satrina's macro for avoidance
    Code:
    /run ChatFrame1:AddMessage(format("Total avoidance: %.2f%%", GetDodgeChance() + GetParryChance() + 5 + 1/(0.0625 + 0.956/(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)/4.91850*0.04))))
    what would be more worthy of getting, 1k hp or 1% avoidance.

    I ask this because right now I have 29k unbuffed hp and have the option to increase my avoidance by roughly 1.3% but that would mean sacrificing around 1.2k hp. In my opinion the avoidance would be best because mobs roughly hti for 1-2k and bosses for 3-8k depending on which one, so having that chance to avoid the attacks would greatly outdo the extra hp, however many people say its best to take meat shield approach and get as much hp as possible....
    Anyone know if anyone has done any calculations about this? or ay suggestiosn?

  2. #2
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    Generally speaking, and this isn't a universal issue. If you have high health and avoidance, I don't think you'll notice a huge difference either way.

    Currently, DKs are NOT better as meat shields. We can get powerful levels of avoidance, and with well rotated CDs we can take very manageable levels of damage from any encounter in the game. Take away our avoidance though and both our threat and our survival fall off noticeably on raid bosses. Currently there is nothing in the game that will stress min/maxing small details.

    Warriors, Pallies, and Bears pull off the meat shield idea much better than we do, they get tastey shield block and bears get bigger health bonuses and somewhat more armor. Only Blood spec has any tools that particularly work well with stacking lots of stamina.

    What is your current avoidance with Blade Barrier up? Is the 1.3% avoidance dodge/parry/miss or maybe a split of them? Is the extra avoidance subject to diminishing returns or something else?

    Fill in some of these details and I can probably tell you better which will serve you more, though having 29k health already unbuffed, I think you're just fine in that respect.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  3. #3
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    You know who the best people to ask would be?

    Your healers. Your obviously at a gear level which in the greater scheme of things, it won't make or break your raid.

    So ask the people healing you ^_^ For fights like saph, some more HP might be nice, but you don't want to nerf your avoidance, cuz he hits like a truck. FOr loatheb? HP all the way. Why? Longer your alive, and he hits like a panzy. For Patches? Enough HP to get above the DPS.... then avoidance is KING.

    Ask yer healers, if you have druid healers, then avoidance is amazing. If you have palies, maybe HP is better. Disc priest? avoidance, holy? HP.

    Depends on their heal styles, your CD'd management, and how their MP5 is.

    Ask yer healers, do they want you to have more HP, or more reactive.
    November 23, 2004 8:27:03 AM - Glomgore 10+ Years of tanking? Priceless

  4. #4
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    Mmmm, and there in squats the toad.

    Multiple gear sets is the mark of a smart tank. Match your rig to the fight you're doing. Or if you're like me, get lazy in Naxx and just leave the same set up all the time. >.>
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  5. #5
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    Well unbuffed I have 55.08 67.92% avoidance with the horn of winter and blade parry thing. the 1.3% is spread betweeen dodge miss and parry

  6. #6
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    the extra avoidance from trnket puts me right about 70% avoidance, mroe with raid buffs, but its less HP as mentioned before =P

  7. #7
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    You're fine on health and avoidance. I don't think one way or the other is universally better. If it is a matter of swapping runes, I'd stick with SS over SG, unless you have second weapon and want to use it for a second set to stack more threat for non-boss stuff.

    You're in the deep end of the pool though, small details are really that, small.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  8. #8
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    Allright bro! Thanks for the help!

  9. #9
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    I'm currently gemmed heavily (by heavily.. i mean almost entirely) stamina. I had been thinking about turning around and regemming avoidance, just to see what the effect would be. I tend to think it wouldn't matter too much at this point. Any opinions? I have always been a heavy believer in the EH theory of tanking.. all told, in frost presence, with kings, fort, mark, commanding im over 40k buffed.

  10. #10
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    Let me know how it shapes up, I only put so much stock in any theory that encourages imbalance.

    Stacking health at the expense of other stats is inherently faulty, to me, though the way gear works now, it's not really at that expense. You can get most everything on gear, it's usually just everything but one or two stats on every piece. Gemming and enchanting let you add a personal bias to that gear, for more health, more avoidance, more threat, or whatever balance you may want there in. I generally figure so long as it is one of those, you won't REALLY suffer or be short as a tank, but the best tanks are the ones who can tailor their balance of threat versus survival for the needs of the raid, even down to the individual fight.

    Survival is necessitated by damage dealt to the tank. Physical damage in scale and speed, and magic damage in its many forms. As a tank we're expected to take certain damage, even when we do it all right. Managing that varies entirely fight to fight, so identifying the appropriate response to every situation varies fight to fight. An overall change in tact is not likely an overall improvement, it is better for some fights and not for others.

    Threat is also a factor of need. Your needed threat is only slightly more than the largest amount of damage your best dpser can do. More accurately your threat needs to surpass the largest threat any one member of your raid can deliver. Likewise to survival this will change from fight to fight as different people are capable of delivering different performance to different sorts of fights. There is also the same balance between single target and aoe threat. Threat can be appealing because you can shoot for the moon and leave no chance of dps pulling aggro, and you can ride the line where you're only just keeping ahead of the dps on threat without limiting them. Both work, but I tend to aim for a little bit closer to the former, since the latter is rather stressful as a tank.

    So, pick your focus, but so long as you have what is needed on both threat and survival, you will not fail by gear choices. At that, if you have the good fortune to, build sets to suit the need of each fight and figure out what bests suits each fight such that you can be the strongest tank you can in each situation.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  11. #11
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    Yeah, I dont stack EH to the expense of other stuff. I just lean to it for the optional stuff.. Enchants (oddly.. i have Armsman, and Steelweave.. as opposed to any EH stuff there). Im not 100% sure i want to make that change, especially with 3.1 looming on the horizon and my tanking abilites changing (i actually Like the changes, fwiw).

    As far as threat, im sitting right at 26 expertise, so i have very few problems in that department.. Im pretty sure my hit is low (probably 150 or less in tank gear), but my expertise seems to make up for it. I peaked at about 9k threat for about 3 seconds on Patch this week.. but i tend to sit around the 5-7k range, depending on crits and weather or not he hits me with his hateful. I never have problems or really even risk losing threat except the wierd situations. (like when our enh shaman jumps a mob right away and crits all over his face out of the gate) If i can get the gems i want, maybe ill make the change.. but the more i think about it, the more i tend to see that tis just my style.

  12. #12
    I'm having the same problems right now. Still trying to get rid of my laziness to do the math needed. I'm trying to get the best Defense Rating, Avoidance and HP for my sets. Defense Rating being considered not only for the avoidance it brings, but also the boost IBF gets from it.

    Not meant to hijack the thread, but is 2% more damage reduction in IBF better than having 2% more avoidance, or 1~2k HP? This is assuming Expertise and Hit are at reasonable levels.

  13. #13
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    I'd say no on the IBF buff, Jay. I figure, even if you're using it on CD with the deep frost duration buff (GoG) AND the 4 pc t7 bonus, that's only 21 sec per minute, or just over 33% uptime. I'd sooner take the full time damage reduction of avoidance or the extra health.


    And as it stands, that is one of our vulnerabilities as tanks. We have the slowest intro threat profile but we can run that into some higher cruising TPS down the road. The trickiness of it is that IT, PS, and Pest are utility moves to apply diseases, but with FF and BP up we have a solid baseline bump. This week I ran with a great prot pally who demonstrated exactly that. We'd start at the same time and he'd pull the first aggro for his Avenger's Shield, HotR, and judgment, but once I stack my damage dealers I'd yank all the threat right back while he was waiting for his CDs to turn around.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  14. #14
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    But it's not as clearcut as you make it out to be, actually... because DEF rating adds avoidance, and it's on a slower curve than dodge/parry rating and we have options to cut ~125 def rating from the curve due to our runeforge. Point per point, only dodge rating gives more avoidance than def rating and even that it's only a small amount. I think it greatly depends on how much dodge/def rating you already have, which certainly differs from person to person.

    [e] I think my point was a bit unclear there... but I was trying to say that you will never see a choice where you can take either 2% increase in IBF or 2% increase in avoidance. That's because to get 2% increase in IBF, you need about 14 def rating, which only needs 70 rating points in gear. If you give it all to Dodge, it will probably give 1.5% dodge due to DR. Whereas 14 def rating gives probably 1.2% avoidance by itself. Numbers may be off, but I hope the point is clear.

    As for health - I personally think that beyond the EH required to take worst case scenario (say, a hit + a breath in a row), additional EH is overrated. But maybe that's because the worst case scenario in current content is still relatively easy. I may change my view on this, but right now, I don't see the point of having too much health.
    Last edited by Boeten; 03-26-2009 at 07:47 PM.

  15. #15
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    You said it right in your second point, it's not a trade between a 2% gain to IBF or 2% avoidance. That was the question I answered.

    If you want to talk about defense vs dodge rating that's a different matter. From a base of 540 def, and say ~26% dodge (my setup, without SG, with 5/5 Anticipation, not a Nelf), ~53 def = 1% total avoid (dodge+parry+miss in even measure) and 27 dodge rating = 0.5% avoid. So, they're about identical for total avoidance on me right now, though miss doesn't give us a proc on RS or Scent of Blood. Also, on the diminishing curve the improvement to parry and miss have a much lower cap than dodge, so you'll see lower % increases as your gear improves with those stats, regardless of source of improvement.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

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