Prot Pally Glyphs?

[Balakai]

Hello, I am currently leveling a paladin and tanking instances as I go to work on getting practice. I was wondering what kind of glyphs I should pick up to use as a protection paladin?

[Minibell]

I run with:
Major
Seal of Vengeance
Righteous Defense
Hammer of Wrath

Minor
Blesssing of Kings
Sense Undead (cheap dps)
(something I had while I switched from ret to holy to prot).

I skipped the consecration because it FUBARs my rotation and I get cranky when my rotation isn't humming along. I also skipped the Avengers shield because I still do a lot of heroics like VH and UK with pugs, I don't need the big DPS, I need immediate threat for the really fun DKs and Mages that decide to AOE before the pack gets to my consecration.

In my opinion Seal of Vengeance should be the first glyph you stick in there, the others can be places as you need them.

[Jayson]

I run with:
Major
Seal of Vengeance
Righteous Defense
Hammer of Wrath

Minor
Blesssing of Kings
Sense Undead (cheap dps)
(something I had while I switched from ret to holy to prot).

I skipped the consecration because it FUBARs my rotation and I get cranky when my rotation isn't humming along. I also skipped the Avengers shield because I still do a lot of heroics like VH and UK with pugs, I don't need the big DPS, I need immediate threat for the really fun DKs and Mages that decide to AOE before the pack gets to my consecration.

In my opinion Seal of Vengeance should be the first glyph you stick in there, the others can be places as you need them.

Your majors should be:

Seal of Vengeance
Righteous Defense
Judgement

Hands down.

SoV is a huge chunk of free Expertise.
Righteous Defense greatly reduces your chance of missing with your taunt.
Judgement is free threat.

Hammer of Wrath is used too little to make a useful glyph and since you are replacing either Cons or Holy Shield with it at >20% (Depending on the boss) you should have no mana issues. The Consecrate glyph sucks as well... pushes Cons out of the 9/6/9/6 rotation.

[Minibell]

I tried that and the amount of threat, most of the people I run with aren't pushing my threat at this point. But the free hammer is easily worked into my rotation and works better for where I'm at now.

[Jayson]

I tried that and the amount of threat, most of the people I run with aren't pushing my threat at this point. But the free hammer is easily worked into my rotation and works better for where I'm at now.

Hammer only works under 20% on a mob. If you use HoW you should be replacing either Consecrate or HS in your 9696 rotation (depending on if the boss is hitting you solidly or not) so even in that situation, the threat gain is slight over either of the original abilities. If you are attempting to use it in addition to your base 5 abilities, you are pushing the whole cycle and losing threat.

Glyph of Judgement really isn't a big threat gain... but it works on every single fight... for the whole fight... I suppose if you are somehow constantly running OOM in the last 20% of boss fights, HoW might help you.

[Minibell]

Jay-- I thought about it and showing real life numbers are going to be the way you can best "get" why the judgement glyph isn't all that. It's more then a 'I run outta mana' although given the distribution of my time (greater soloing then dungeoning) that plays heavily into my situation.

Here's the thing, the judgement glyph works out to be about ~20 TPS from 100 damage boost/judgement * 1.73 (RF threat bonus)/9 second cycle time on judgement. Yes, in 25 man events this goes up, but I am often not running in 25 man events. Note that while I used 100 damage boost, the number is slightly less, because with the judgement glyph I average just over 1000 damage per judgement. However for the sake of nice easy numbers, I'm using 100 damage, the real increase in my threat is lower.

I pull right now between 3800 and 4100 sustained single target TPS (as long as I have mana), let's for argument sake say I run 4k TPS all the time the 20 TPS is 0.5% of a boost to my threat. I would get a better return on investment by throwing the Armsman enchant on my gloves.

But what about the damage aspect? To that I say it's negligible at this level too. Lets say my hammer hits for 1500 on average (I did a lot of tanking today but wiped Recount after I looked at the judgement numbers. This number isnt spot on, but not enough that it completely invalidates my argument. In any event HoW is higher damage then consecrate.

SOLO
When I solo (i.e. grind for those awful Hodir tokens or daily quest), I'm in my tanking gear, so mana is usually an issue, thus limiting the use and effectiveness of consecrate. Unless I pull more then 3 mobs I generally don't consecrate because it's not worth it to me mana wise. However a free 1500 damage every 9 seconds that is of interest because it means I can chain pull more mobs.

DUNGEON and RAIDS (10 man)
Currently I don't do a lot of non-heroics or older dungeons. So outside running Strat on occasion for the elusive mount, I'm using consecration as threat not damage. And I basically do that until there's less then three mobs, because I've built up enough of a lead I can cycle through targets similar to a druid/warrior and focus threat if I've got someone going AOE nuts.

Occasionally I'll HoW regular mobs, but not often and certainly not often enough to warrant the glyph, where it comes in handy is VoA and Sarth raids. For several reasons when I take the pally I'm OT on both of these targets. Twenty percent lasts a while on both of these targets because generally we're gearing guildies up who are freshly 80. As such, the DPS boost I get from HoW compared to consecrate AND the range I can use the talent, both heavily favor HoW. Especially in the light of bosses staying below 20% (but not dead) for extended periods of time, almost always I get 2 or 3 casts, occasionally I get 4, 5 and even 6 casts in the latest Sarth attempt.

Like I said before, I have zero problem with Vengeance being the first glyph. Righteous Defense should be the second glyph until you are hit capped. However, based on my circumstance and using the numbers I provided, HoW is a better fit for my pally. I typically don't cycle through consecrate the entire fight, because it's a mana hog and I don't need it for agro, thus there's a natural gap in my rotation that fits HoW perfectly. The end result is while the judgement glyph does boost damage (and thus threat) across the whole fight, the damage is not significant enough to not allow me to switch to a spell that is both MANA FREE and MORE DAMAGE then consecrate.

Obviously the judgement glyph scales better with better stats (through buffs or gear), and does at some point become a better glyph overall. The reality is that for many fresh-faced level 80s, they will see less of a benefit then I do, so acting like the glyph of judgement is the end all be all of glyphs, is rather inappropriate.

[Tijeras]

So with all of the changes to the prot tree and the new glyphs that are currently out I am wondering what I should replace the Major for Spiritual Attunement with. I was lucky enough to get Glyph of Divine Plea and with it having 100% uptime now on boss fights I don't need SA. I have been quite full on mana in the 10/25 Naxx/OS runs that I did this week.

One of the guild Inscriptionists just got Glyph of Shield of the Righteous which makes the shield slam almost free. Would it be better to try to get the Hammer of the Righteous Glyph? Where it hots a fourth target? Too many choices make me confused

[Sparan]

3 options for prot pally glyphing now imho:

OT/Lots of AoE tanking in your future:
-Glyph of DP
-Glyph of SoV (maybe even swap this out for Glyph of RD, if you don't think you'll EVER be single target tanking)
-Glyph of HotR

MT, but you're lazy and don't want to rotate exorcisms every second judgment:
-Glyph of DP
-Glyph of SoV
-Glyph of Judg

MT, and you aren't lazy:
-Glyph of DP
-Glyph of SoV
-Glyph of Exorcism

Also, every prot spec should have LoH and sense undead as minor glyphs. No exceptions.